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He/She... or the One?

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Infected Mushroom
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He/She... or the One?

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:48 am

The pronouns that we use are important because language shapes the way we conceptualise ourselves and the world around us, and the prevailing societal ethos.

It used to be the case that in all cases of writing when referring to an individual using a pronoun ''He'' would be used without thinking and without pause. Then came an era of increased sensitivity whereby people started to understand that such a starting point may at times seem presumptuous and discriminatory; after all, self-identified females do form half the population. Indeed, why should it be the case that when a person is writing and the person is anonymous, that the male gender be the assumed default? Hence the introduction of the new ''He/She'' (or ''He or she'') in writing and parlance.

However, the replacement of ''He'' with ''He/She'' even if we assume this general trend has been replaced, introduces other problems. For instance, it reinforces existing gender labels and gender binaries to the exclusion of people who don't identify comfortably on this binary. Perhaps its time to go further and mandate that we replace ''He/She'' with ''One'' (a truly gender-neutral pronoun)? So instead of a sentence looking like

''A person who steals a cookie is a fool. He/She would have broken the law''... it would instead look like this ''A person who steals a cookie is a fool. One would have broken the law.''

Since the use of the word ''One'' in certain sentence constructions seems a bit awkward, perhaps a new pronoun (a truly gender-neutral one not restricted to the He/She binary) ought to be introduced. Suggestions are welcome.

Two issues to consider and discuss.


1. Is the use of the word ''He'' in writing and parlance when referring to a non-specific person discriminatory and problematic?

2. Is the use of the word He/She in its place SUFFICIENT to get rid of the problematic issues? Or does it create more problems than it solves (for instance reinforcing gender binaries)?

3. Should a new pronoun be introduced?


In my view the use of the word ''He'' as a default pronoun when referring to a non-specific person is problematic; its discriminatory beyond question when at least half of the population does not identify as a He. The word He/She though is an extension of a problem in that it reinforces a restrictive, discriminatory, gender binary to the exclusion of people uncomfortable with this binary. Therefore, I would suggest that a new pronoun needs to be introduced to cover these situations.

Some sources to consider in the discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-sp ... l_pronouns
https://uwm.edu/lgbtrc/support/gender-pronouns/
https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com
https://apps.carleton.edu/student/orgs/saga/pronouns/
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:49 am

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Telmatherina
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Postby Telmatherina » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:51 am

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Talvezout
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Postby Talvezout » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:51 am

We already have a gender-neutral pronoun though, they.
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:52 am

One word: they.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:53 am

Talvezout wrote:We already have a gender-neutral pronoun though, they.


The problem with ''they'' is that it is too strongly associated with the plural sense

A quick google search

They /ðeɪ/ is the third-person plural personal pronoun (subjective case) in Modern English. It can also be used with singular meaning, particularly in informal contexts, sometimes to avoid specifying the gender of the person referred to.


If you want to amp up and promote the use of the word ''they'' in formal contexts, I would support you. But as things stand right now, it doesn't have sufficient established use.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:54 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Talvezout wrote:We already have a gender-neutral pronoun though, they.


The problem with ''they'' is that it is too strongly associated with the plural sense

A quick google search

They /ðeɪ/ is the third-person plural personal pronoun (subjective case) in Modern English. It can also be used with singular meaning, particularly in informal contexts, sometimes to avoid specifying the gender of the person referred to.


If you want to amp up and promote the use of the word ''they'' in formal contexts, I would support you. But as things stand right now, it doesn't have sufficient established use.

Neither does one, but people use they more.
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Postby Anollasia » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:54 am

Unless I know their gender, I usually use they.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:55 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:One word: they.


As of now, the use of the word ''they'' in its singular sense is only informal, and not formal. It will take time as well as a social movement to transform it into mainstream use in its singular gender-neutral sense.

But even in this regard, I suggest that we should come up with a new pronoun (it would have the added benefit of reinforcing a new societal egalitarian ethos).

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:56 am

Anyone who objects to the singular they can get the fuck out of my English language.
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:56 am

Pretty sure using "one" as a pronoun just makes you sound pretentious.
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Postby Talvezout » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:56 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Talvezout wrote:We already have a gender-neutral pronoun though, they.


The problem with ''they'' is that it is too strongly associated with the plural sense

A quick google search

They /ðeɪ/ is the third-person plural personal pronoun (subjective case) in Modern English. It can also be used with singular meaning, particularly in informal contexts, sometimes to avoid specifying the gender of the person referred to.


If you want to amp up and promote the use of the word ''they'' in formal contexts, I would support you. But as things stand right now, it doesn't have sufficient established use.


For what's it's worth, they, them and their are at least gaining some precedent in formal use.

Still, good discussion topic though.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:57 am

Conserative Morality wrote:Anyone who objects to the singular they can get the fuck out of my English language.


It says on wikipedia

''The singular they is the use of this pronoun as a gender-neutral singular rather than as a plural pronoun. The correctness of this usage is disputed.''

Which is why I think we need to push back harder. Rather than just playing by their rules and using ''they,'' we should introduce a new pronoun and reinforce it upon the population.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:58 am

Vassenor wrote:Pretty sure using "one" as a pronoun just makes you sound pretentious.

I disagree, it has its uses in everyday conversation. One might say that it's situationally appropriate.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:59 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:It says on wikipedia

''The singular they is the use of this pronoun as a gender-neutral singular rather than as a plural pronoun. The correctness of this usage is disputed.''

Yeah, those people can fuck off. Was I not clear?
Which is why I think we need to push back harder. Rather than just playing by their rules and using ''they,'' we should introduce a new pronoun and reinforce it upon the population.

Fuck no. That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:59 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:One word: they.


As of now, the use of the word ''they'' in its singular sense is only informal, and not formal. It will take time as well as a social movement to transform it into mainstream use in its singular gender-neutral sense.

Because this requires a fucking social movement like it's MLK all over again.

What's that bullshit about they not being mainstream? People use our inn singular all the time.
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:00 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Pretty sure using "one" as a pronoun just makes you sound pretentious.

I disagree, it has its uses in everyday conversation. One might say that it's situationally appropriate.


Well I just think it just makes a person sound too much like European royalty circa 1540.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:00 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:It says on wikipedia

''The singular they is the use of this pronoun as a gender-neutral singular rather than as a plural pronoun. The correctness of this usage is disputed.''

Yeah, those people can fuck off. Was I not clear?
Which is why I think we need to push back harder. Rather than just playing by their rules and using ''they,'' we should introduce a new pronoun and reinforce it upon the population.

Fuck no. That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.


At this point I feel that the English language as it currently exists, may be too deeply steeped in sexist rhetoric to be salvaged by words in the existing domain; what may well be needed is for someone to break the wheel, shake up the table, and introduce some new elements into the system to change the starting assumptions
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:00 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Pretty sure using "one" as a pronoun just makes you sound pretentious.

I disagree, it has its uses in everyday conversation. One might say that it's situationally appropriate.

kek
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Treading on me
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:01 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Yeah, those people can fuck off. Was I not clear?

Fuck no. That's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.


At this point I feel that the English language as it currently exists, may be too deeply steeped in sexist rhetoric to be salvaged by words in the existing domain; what may well be needed is for someone to break the wheel, shake up the table, and introduce some new elements into the system to change the starting assumptions

CM, are you sure that was the stupidest thing you've heard all week? Because he just said this.
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Greater Allidron
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Postby Greater Allidron » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:01 pm

Oh please, he is just fine.


Feminists are the ones causing the issues.

"I'm discriminated against because he is used as a neutral pronoun! DISCURMINATION!!!! Legislate therm to death!"

Spare me of this, please please please!
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Bogdanov Vishniac
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Postby Bogdanov Vishniac » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:01 pm

Thee/thy/thou/ye etc works just fine as a 'default' genderless singular/plural pronoun. Why not bring them back instead of inventing a new one?
Last edited by Bogdanov Vishniac on Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:02 pm

So this is another "we need change for the sake of having change" thread?
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:02 pm

Vassenor wrote:So this is another "we need change for the sake of having change" thread?

Would you expect anything else from Kefka?
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:03 pm

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
As of now, the use of the word ''they'' in its singular sense is only informal, and not formal. It will take time as well as a social movement to transform it into mainstream use in its singular gender-neutral sense.

Because this requires a fucking social movement like it's MLK all over again.

What's that bullshit about they not being mainstream? People use our inn singular all the time.


The pursuit of social equality and justice demands that we change the mainstream, and not just reinforce the existence of limited echo chambers; to enact real social transformation is to reach out to the masses, no matter the opposition, so long as your position is grounded in what is right

at least that is my view on the matter, you are welcome to disagree; but I see little utility in doing anything else

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