Islamic Pre-school opens in Sweden

[Teemant]

It will isolate them more because the children in these schools will all be minorities. There will be no children with christian or atheist backgrounds in these schools. It will certainly isolate muslim population even more in Sweden.

How is this different from any other school? If kids go to school in some small Swedish village and everyone there is Christian, are they being isolated from the rest of Sweden?

I mean, what, do you want some kind of quota system such that every school has to have Christians, Muslims, atheists, and every other religion in Sweden?

But they are not the ones who have to integrate or have integration probolems. Average Swede doesn't have such problem as minorities because they are who make up the Swedish society.

[Tierra Prime]

Why don't we just keep religion out of things that religion doesn't belong in? Keep religion to home and place of worship. It doesn't need to be involved with education.

I think religious education should only become an option when you reach 18. Allowing for religious education in primary and secondary schools violates the principles of secularism. It would be better if all students were required to attend a secular school until they complete their college-entry exams. They can decide then if they want to study theology or whatever else. If the state is involved in education, which it should be, it should be as neutral as possible.

[Wallenburg]

How is this different from any other school? If kids go to school in some small Swedish village and everyone there is Christian, are they being isolated from the rest of Sweden?

I mean, what, do you want some kind of quota system such that every school has to have Christians, Muslims, atheists, and every other religion in Sweden?

But they are not the ones who have to integrate or have integration probolems. Average Swede doesn't have such problem as minorities because they are who make up the Swedish society.

Minorities aren't part of Swedish society?

[Teemant]

But they are not the ones who have to integrate or have integration probolems. Average Swede doesn't have such problem as minorities because they are who make up the Swedish society.

Minorities aren't part of Swedish society?

I didn't claim they weren't. But the word minority itself explains the situation. Minorities are the ones who have to integrate and adapt - it can't be other way around.

No one wants to have 2 segregated societies living in one country.

[Wallenburg]

Minorities aren't part of Swedish society?

I didn't claim they weren't. But the word minority itself explains the situation. Minorities are the ones who have to integrate and adapt - it can't be other way around.

If they are already part of society, how have they not already integrated?

No one wants to have 2 segregated societies living in one country.

What two societies would these be?

[Teemant]

I didn't claim they weren't. But the word minority itself explains the situation. Minorities are the ones who have to integrate and adapt - it can't be other way around.

If they are already part of society, how have they not already integrated?

No one wants to have 2 segregated societies living in one country.

What two societies would these be?

Then why is Europe currently talking about muslim integration problems and radicalization of 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. There is a problem. You can choose to not admit it but it doesn't make problem go away.

[Wallenburg]

If they are already part of society, how have they not already integrated?

What two societies would these be?

Then why is Europe currently talking about muslim integration problems and radicalization of 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. There is a problem. You can choose to not admit it but it doesn't make problem go away.

You didn't answer either of my questions.

[Kaitjan]

I didn't claim they weren't. But the word minority itself explains the situation. Minorities are the ones who have to integrate and adapt - it can't be other way around.

If they are already part of society, how have they not already integrated?

No one wants to have 2 segregated societies living in one country.

What two societies would these be?

Don't play stupid. You know full and well what he means. Come to the district of Rosengård in the city of Malmö and take a look at the people that live there. They are society, sure, but they are hell as not a Swedish society. Especially when they riot, throw things at police and firemen and prevent them from doing their work. And they are not Swedish.

[Wallenburg]

If they are already part of society, how have they not already integrated?

What two societies would these be?

Don't play stupid. You know full and well what he means. Come to the district of Rosengård in the city of Malmö and take a look at the people that live there. They are society, sure, but they are hell as not a Swedish society. Especially when they riot, throw things at police and firemen and prevent them from doing their work. And they are not Swedish.

I wasn't aware there were no Swedish minorities, and that all minorities that happen to be in Sweden--but aren't Swedish--riot, throw things at police and firemen and prevent them from doing their work, and that nobody in Sweden of minority status can possibly be integrated into Swedish culture.

Please read the posts that you are replying to. Carefully.

[The Huskar Social Union]

School in Egypt
Nursery in Algeria

And most Muslim countries allow churches, so im sure there are schools there as well. I think there are quite a few of them in Azerbaijan from what i remember reading a while back.

In Morocco is legal build a church, but is illegal to try to christianize an islamic believer.

Wow, they're so tolerant and liberal

Yup sure, that was totally the question i answered.

[Kaitjan]

To Wallenburg: (I messed up with the citations, so you'll have to pardon me for how this reply is formulated)


Teemant wrote:
I didn't claim they weren't. But the word minority itself explains the situation. Minorities are the ones who have to integrate and adapt - it can't be other way around.

Your Reply:
If they are already part of society, how have they not already integrated?

Teemant:
No one wants to have 2 segregated societies living in one country.

Your Reply:
What two societies would these be?

There ARE Swedish minorities. Some of these minorities, however, have trouble integrating into SWEDISH society. Want to know who? Arabs and African immigrants for the most part. I have yet to see a Finn or a Balt to not be integrated, in fact I don't even notice them because they don't stand out. Technically they are a part of society, but they are badly integrated into it and many live in their own enclaves, which in turn form into societies of their own. And that is bad.

Teemant told you just that. Why don't you understand what societies he refers to?

EDIT: added a SWEDEN for added emphasis.

[Alvecia]

Excellent. So we are agreed that Muslims do not have any special privileges that other religious people don't have?

So I did answer the question. And they do in Sweden.

Religious people? What privileges do they get?

[Iverya]

I think it's important to remember that in mainstream Islam, the Quran is infallible and it is all considered to be the word of god directly. This means that a proper muslim must accept everything in the Quran without question (including the less palatable passages). This is not true for mainstream christanity and so a christan can ignore the more horrible passages of the bible without trouble, whereas a muslim must accept everything in the Quran to be correct and to question it is to question God's words

[Celseon]

The concept of parochial schools itself doesn't quite rub me the right way since it is essentially education's core duty to instruct people about facts and methods for obtaining and interpreting facts through as objective a lens as can possibly be constructed. Ideally a parochial school would not inject religious viewpoints into its curriculum while simultaneously serving as a nucleus for the youth of some faith or another to gather around, but then again pursuing that ideal seems a redundant effort in light of the existence of churches, clubs, and and so on that could fill the gap created by removing parochial schools as that nucleus without any additional effort.

This leaves one question in my mind since we're specifically talking about a school for very young children: since preschools often function as stand-ins for daycare services I wonder if that particular benefit is also offered by mosques. Christian churches very frequently have people who offer to take care of and entertain children at least on a seasonal basis (often during school breaks), but I don't know if this is common in Muslim religious communities as well. The reason to bring this up is because there may be parental concerns that a secular daycare service might not understand or adhere to certain religious customs such as dietary restrictions or requirements, and so would want a service that originated from within their religious community. If mosques frequently offer daycare services there wouldn't be a gap created by removing parochial preschools from the picture that couldn't be easily filled and there's no problem with eliminating parochial schools. If it is otherwise someone might think this might be a chink in my assessment's armour, though I would think it might also be cause for mosques to begin offering such services if they don't already instead.

[Wallenburg]

I think it's important to remember that in mainstream Islam, the Quran is infallible and it is all considered to be the word of god directly. This means that a proper muslim must accept everything in the Quran without question (including the less palatable passages). This is not true for mainstream christanity and so a christan can ignore the more horrible passages of the bible without trouble, whereas a muslim must accept everything in the Quran to be correct and to question it is to question God's words

Bullshit. "Qur'an" literally means "recitation". Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. It is not the direct word of God. It is Muhammad's interpretation of an angel's message.

[Fanosolia]

For some reason I feel no one is going to protest the day a Islamic court opens.

Hello. *would protest any religious court*

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

Keep religion out of the education system - or out of any other function of government. Dot.

Absolutely not.

Keep evangelism out of government, and school. Religion as an integral part of human culture must be studied, and explained from a scholarly point of view.

[Tierra Prime]

I think it's important to remember that in mainstream Islam, the Quran is infallible and it is all considered to be the word of god directly. This means that a proper muslim must accept everything in the Quran without question (including the less palatable passages). This is not true for mainstream christanity and so a christan can ignore the more horrible passages of the bible without trouble, whereas a muslim must accept everything in the Quran to be correct and to question it is to question God's words

Bullshit. "Qur'an" literally means "recitation". Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. It is not the direct word of God. It is Muhammad's interpretation of an angel's message.

Muhammad's high place in Islam means Muslims must follow his word. To ignore it is to ignore their god's will IIRC.

[Wallenburg]

Bullshit. "Qur'an" literally means "recitation". Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. It is not the direct word of God. It is Muhammad's interpretation of an angel's message.

Muhammad's high place in Islam means Muslims must follow his word. To ignore it is to ignore their god's will IIRC.

No, actually, it doesn't. And shifting the goalposts doesn't strengthen that argument.

[Baltican Union]

Goodbye Sweden, you had a good run in culture,empire and science, you where one of the mightiest in Europe but now you self destruct with Multiculturalism, Gay rights and Liberalism.

[Gauthier]

Goodbye Sweden, you had a good run in culture,empire and science, you where one of the mightiest in Europe but now you self destruct with Multiculturalism, Gay rights and Liberalism.

Gay Rights enables Muslims to Zerg Rush your country. You heard it first here folks!

[The Huskar Social Union]

Goodbye Sweden, you had a good run in culture,empire and science, you where one of the mightiest in Europe but now you self destruct with Multiculturalism, Gay rights and Liberalism.

Gay Rights enables Muslims to Zerg Rush your country. You heard it first here folks!

Soon my plan for European domination will be complete.

[Tierra Prime]

Muhammad's high place in Islam means Muslims must follow his word. To ignore it is to ignore their god's will IIRC.

No, actually, it doesn't. And shifting the goalposts doesn't strengthen that argument.

One of the central tenants of the Islamic faith is that Muhammad was god's prophet. To ignore the Koran is to not only ignore god's prophet, but to go against god's will, which is, according to Islam, an offence punishable by death. Even the sayings of Muhammad, the Hadiths, carry great weight in the Islamic faith. There are some sects that don't follow the Hadiths, but they still have a great amount of authority in Islam, primarily because they are said to be the word of Muhammad.

Here's a source for you that goes into apostasy in Islam and how it is defined: http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv1.html

"The crime of apostasy is committed in the following ways:

1. Making an explicit statement or committing an act definitely indicating renunciation of Islam.
2. Denial of essential tenets of the faith.
3. Bringing into ridicule through word or action, the Gracious Koran."

[Celseon]

I think it's important to remember that in mainstream Islam, the Quran is infallible and it is all considered to be the word of god directly. This means that a proper muslim must accept everything in the Quran without question (including the less palatable passages). This is not true for mainstream christanity and so a christan can ignore the more horrible passages of the bible without trouble, whereas a muslim must accept everything in the Quran to be correct and to question it is to question God's words

It's very difficult to take statements like this seriously when three hopeful contenders for the top executive office of the United States are found to have attended and spoken at a conference hosted by people well known for both calling for genocide against homosexuals and praising the efforts of those who seek to expand the list of nations that brutally crack down on homosexuality. That's particularly true when the candidates dubiously turned around and flopped all over themselves immediately afterward insisting that they didn't know what they were getting into when people were handing out literature explaining why capital punishment for homosexuality would be beneficial for society right there on site, and it certainly casts suspicions on their claims of ignorance that these contenders could've left at any moment after having heard the genocidal screed begin but didn't.

It may not be the case that most Christians in the US want to summarily execute homosexuals, but it should at least give one pause to see that three people from a mainstream party's candidates list who are very clearly hoping to rally support from US Christian conservatives attended and did not leave a conference where people who are claiming to be speaking the will of God called for genocide against homosexuals. That should at least make one more hesitant to suggest that Christianity has no taming of radicals to be done and that the radicals within Christianity have no reach or influence.

E: Clarified by changing some pronouns to indicate who was being referred to.

[Gauthier]

I see Dunning-Kruger University is offering a doctorate course in Islamic Studies.