by Of Leben » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:05 pm
by Alyakia » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:14 pm
by Wisconsin9 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:23 pm
by Araraukar » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:27 pm
Wisconsin9 wrote:And if you look over here, you'll see the glorious victory of fascism over communism. No, wait. Literally the complete exact opposite of what I just said.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Sanctissima » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:28 pm
by Alyakia » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:31 pm
Sanctissima wrote:Communism too has it's drawbacks. Even in an ideal, utopian scenario, there's the whole issue of essentially suppressing individuality. I mean, you quite literally cannot be an individual in a Communist society, which tends to make life fairly dreary. It has a horrible impact on culture, art and most of the finer aspects of civilization. Ever seen a Communist movie or work of art? Don't bother, they all suck.
by Venatorium » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:31 pm
by Alyakia » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:34 pm
Venatorium wrote:
WELL FIRST OFF, it was the fascists that beat themselves. If Hitler hadn't fucked EVERYTHING up, we'd be speaking German.
SECOND, the Russkies had a little help from the Brits and Yanks if I remember correctly. It wasn't a total Bolshevik effort.
by Arcturus Novus » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:36 pm
Nilokeras wrote:there is of course an interesting thread to pull on [...]
Unfortunately we're all forced to participate in whatever baroque humiliation kink the OP has going on instead.
by Venatorium » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:37 pm
Alyakia wrote:Venatorium wrote:
WELL FIRST OFF, it was the fascists that beat themselves. If Hitler hadn't fucked EVERYTHING up, we'd be speaking German.
SECOND, the Russkies had a little help from the Brits and Yanks if I remember correctly. It wasn't a total Bolshevik effort.
well yeah, if they didn't have a hyper-nationalistic dictatorship obsessed with competition many of the problems that lead to their defeat wouldn't be there. but if they weren't they, uh, wouldn't have been that fascist huh?
by Wine-loving Chimps » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:38 pm
An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43); the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also Fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach
by Alyakia » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:39 pm
Venatorium wrote:Alyakia wrote:
well yeah, if they didn't have a hyper-nationalistic dictatorship obsessed with competition many of the problems that lead to their defeat wouldn't be there. but if they weren't they, uh, wouldn't have been that fascist huh?
That's an extraordinarily watered-down description of fascism, mate. There's way more to it than that.
by Novsvacro » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:40 pm
by MERIZoC » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:43 pm
Communsim has never worked and is merely a distant utopian dream that is used by radicals to lure the poor and disadvantaged to their cause.
by Wine-loving Chimps » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:43 pm
Sanctissima wrote:Both Fascism and Communism are mostly full of shit.
I mean, even theoretically speaking (which is ignoring all real-world drawbacks of implementing either system), they still aren't without serious repercussions.
In Fascism, you pretty much always have a dictator. In fact, you pretty much need to have a dictator for it to be Fascism. As such, no matter how good or likable that dictator may be (even though they're usually complete dicks), you inevitably have to replace them with another dictator, since all humans do eventually die. Even if this new guy is more or less benevolent, he still has to consolidate his power and keep things in order. And there's no guarantee that the following dictators will be any good. It's a lot like medieval European feudalism. Ever played Crusader Kings II with a Gravelkind system of succession? It's a lot like that.
Communism too has it's drawbacks. Even in an ideal, utopian scenario, there's the whole issue of essentially suppressing individuality. I mean, you quite literally cannot be an individual in a Communist society, which tends to make life fairly dreary. It has a horrible impact on culture, art and most of the finer aspects of civilization. Ever seen a Communist movie or work of art? Don't bother, they all suck.
Arcturus Novus wrote:Communism is, without a doubt, infinitely better than fascism. Fascism is, like, the warm garbage of ideology. Communism is still garbage, admittedly, but it's garbage that's been recycled into useful things.
by Sanctissima » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:44 pm
Alyakia wrote:Sanctissima wrote:Communism too has it's drawbacks. Even in an ideal, utopian scenario, there's the whole issue of essentially suppressing individuality. I mean, you quite literally cannot be an individual in a Communist society, which tends to make life fairly dreary. It has a horrible impact on culture, art and most of the finer aspects of civilization. Ever seen a Communist movie or work of art? Don't bother, they all suck.
oh come on, you've played tetris and you liked it. we all know it. communist music is also pretty great. admittedly socialist realism is often not the most simulating thing in the world.
even in a capitalist society you are still dependent on society for a lot more than you would like to admit. i suppose part of communism is accepting this.
by Araraukar » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:45 pm
Novsvacro wrote:Communism is the most misunderstood term in political economy.FascismCapitalism is rightfully the most despised term of the 20th Century.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Sanctissima » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:46 pm
Wine-loving Chimps wrote:Sanctissima wrote:Both Fascism and Communism are mostly full of shit.
I mean, even theoretically speaking (which is ignoring all real-world drawbacks of implementing either system), they still aren't without serious repercussions.
In Fascism, you pretty much always have a dictator. In fact, you pretty much need to have a dictator for it to be Fascism. As such, no matter how good or likable that dictator may be (even though they're usually complete dicks), you inevitably have to replace them with another dictator, since all humans do eventually die. Even if this new guy is more or less benevolent, he still has to consolidate his power and keep things in order. And there's no guarantee that the following dictators will be any good. It's a lot like medieval European feudalism. Ever played Crusader Kings II with a Gravelkind system of succession? It's a lot like that.
Communism too has it's drawbacks. Even in an ideal, utopian scenario, there's the whole issue of essentially suppressing individuality. I mean, you quite literally cannot be an individual in a Communist society, which tends to make life fairly dreary. It has a horrible impact on culture, art and most of the finer aspects of civilization. Ever seen a Communist movie or work of art? Don't bother, they all suck.
^This has put it very, very nicely. I see we're not in a formal debate here, just an all-round melee of ideas. Oh well.
by Arcturus Novus » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:46 pm
Nilokeras wrote:there is of course an interesting thread to pull on [...]
Unfortunately we're all forced to participate in whatever baroque humiliation kink the OP has going on instead.
by Of Leben » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:51 pm
Alyakia wrote:are you serious? the soviet union went from rural shit hole that every other european power laughed at wishing it could be at the big boys table to industrial superpower rivaling the united states. china seen increases in life expectancy and literacy. as did the soviet union, actually, along with increases in women's rights and medical and scientific breakthroughs. they put a goddamn man in space for fucks sake. yeah, many died, there were some fucks up, there were some famines. but the guys that came before were also fucks up that had plenty of famines, that's why they had revolutions in the first place.
comparatively, hitler and mussolini just got their nations bombed into dust. italy especially was just a massive fuck up, militarily and socially. it was a failed experiment. the trains, in actual fact, did not run on time.
and that's not even touching on the shitstorm that is "were the soviets/china even communist" debate
e: actually, let's think about other fascist nations or at least nations considered fascist. portugal. you mean the place that is still behind everyone else and refused to educate people beyond the level of 5 year olds so they would not get that uppity? yeah, that's pretty much the yellow brick road to prosperity for the poor and disadvantaged right there, eh? chile is held up, rape dogs aside, as an economic miracle. what people don't tell you is that at some point there was a definitive crash followed by sacking everyone and completely changing their economy because it was, to use the technical term, "fucked". and that's ignoring the fact they did not rely on the iron of fascism but the copper of copper exports to keep them afloat. "was franco fascist" debates are just as nasty as "was stalin communist debates". again, the transformation from shit in the 70s to richer but still lagging behind later on is similar to portugal.
by MERIZoC » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:54 pm
Sanctissima wrote:B
I mean, you quite literally cannot be an individual in a Communist society, which tends to make life fairly dreary. It has a horrible impact on culture, art and most of the finer aspects of civilization. Ever seen a Communist movie or work of art? Don't bother, they all suck.
by Sanctissima » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:04 pm
Merizoc wrote:Sanctissima wrote:B
I mean, you quite literally cannot be an individual in a Communist society, which tends to make life fairly dreary. It has a horrible impact on culture, art and most of the finer aspects of civilization. Ever seen a Communist movie or work of art? Don't bother, they all suck.
What. This is asinine. Communism doesn't reject individual expression. Where on earth do you get that idea?
As for communist works of art….
http://depts.washington.edu/labhist/cpproject/art.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Motor ... ries_(film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx_Reloaded
Besides, not too sure what you mean by that anyway. If you just mean stuff by communists, there's a ton more. But let's face it, overtly political movies/books/etc aren't too interesting anyway, communist, capitalist, or anything in between. It's the things with subtler messages that are much more fun.
by MERIZoC » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:07 pm
Sanctissima wrote:Merizoc wrote:What. This is asinine. Communism doesn't reject individual expression. Where on earth do you get that idea?
As for communist works of art….
http://depts.washington.edu/labhist/cpproject/art.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Motor ... ries_(film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx_Reloaded
Besides, not too sure what you mean by that anyway. If you just mean stuff by communists, there's a ton more. But let's face it, overtly political movies/books/etc aren't too interesting anyway, communist, capitalist, or anything in between. It's the things with subtler messages that are much more fun.
As I said, it's mostly all crap.
And I meant cultural works done inside of a Communist society in general. You've got to admit, most of it is crap. I mean, in what universe is Battleship Potemkin a good movie?
As for individual expression, sure, technically it doesn't set out to destroy it. Then again, the dwindling of individual identity is inevitably a by-product of a Communist society, even if this is unintentional. It's happened in every single Socialist country, so what are the odds of it not happening in a full-blown Communist one?
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