The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Val Halla]

At best the Torygraph is like trusting Fox News in the US.

Do you prefer a Feminist site quoting the proposal by Labour peer Baroness Corston to end the barbaric practice of locking damaged women in inhumane prisons?
http://www.thefword.org.uk/2008/05/women_in_prison/

Do you prefer The Guardian?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/mar/ ... on.ukcrime

Existing women's prisons should be closed down and replaced with small secure units as part of a radical 10-year reform programme, an official report recommended today.

The study by the Labour peer, Baroness Corston, was commissioned by the Home Office to investigate the way women offenders are treated by the criminal justice system.

It was prompted by the self-inflicted deaths of six women at Styal prison in Cheshire between August 2002 and 2003.

If adopted by the home secretary, her radical approach would see the 17 women's prisons in England and Wales shut down or converted to male jails.

Women offenders would instead be held in small, secure centres where they could be closer to their homes and families.

Lady Corston also recommended a significant reduction in the overall number of women who are sent to jail, with a new framework for community punishments as an alternative.

Among 43 recommendations, is a call for a ban on routine strip-searching of women in prison, a government "champion" to oversee policy on women offenders and a network of women's community centre for those at risk of offending.

Do you prefer a more recent Women In Prison site?
http://www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php
They propose rehabilitation instead of jail

Community Solutions

In 2011 a higher proportion of women than men completed their community sentence successfully or had their sentences terminated for good progress on both community orders (70%) and suspended sentence orders (76%) versus 65 and 67% respectively for men.
A report by NEF has found that for every £1 invested in support-focused alternatives to prison, £14 worth of social value is generated to women and their children, victims and society over ten years.

I was quoting the Telegraph just because it seems that now even the right is beginning to agree...

Don't fix women's prisons. Fix prisons.

[United Marxist Nations]

At best the Torygraph is like trusting Fox News in the US.

Do you prefer a Feminist site quoting the proposal by Labour peer Baroness Corston to end the barbaric practice of locking damaged women in inhumane prisons?
http://www.thefword.org.uk/2008/05/women_in_prison/

Do you prefer The Guardian?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/mar/ ... on.ukcrime

Existing women's prisons should be closed down and replaced with small secure units as part of a radical 10-year reform programme, an official report recommended today.

The study by the Labour peer, Baroness Corston, was commissioned by the Home Office to investigate the way women offenders are treated by the criminal justice system.

It was prompted by the self-inflicted deaths of six women at Styal prison in Cheshire between August 2002 and 2003.

If adopted by the home secretary, her radical approach would see the 17 women's prisons in England and Wales shut down or converted to male jails.

Women offenders would instead be held in small, secure centres where they could be closer to their homes and families.

Lady Corston also recommended a significant reduction in the overall number of women who are sent to jail, with a new framework for community punishments as an alternative.

Among 43 recommendations, is a call for a ban on routine strip-searching of women in prison, a government "champion" to oversee policy on women offenders and a network of women's community centre for those at risk of offending.

Do you prefer a more recent Women In Prison site?
http://www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php
They propose rehabilitation instead of jail

Community Solutions

In 2011 a higher proportion of women than men completed their community sentence successfully or had their sentences terminated for good progress on both community orders (70%) and suspended sentence orders (76%) versus 65 and 67% respectively for men.
A report by NEF has found that for every £1 invested in support-focused alternatives to prison, £14 worth of social value is generated to women and their children, victims and society over ten years.

I was quoting the Telegraph just because it seems that now even the right is beginning to agree...

So, literally favoritism in the justice system toward women, since men are still kept in the same conditions.

[The Serbian Empire]

Do you prefer a Feminist site quoting the proposal by Labour peer Baroness Corston to end the barbaric practice of locking damaged women in inhumane prisons?
http://www.thefword.org.uk/2008/05/women_in_prison/

Do you prefer The Guardian?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/mar/ ... on.ukcrime



Do you prefer a more recent Women In Prison site?
http://www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php
They propose rehabilitation instead of jail



I was quoting the Telegraph just because it seems that now even the right is beginning to agree...

Don't fix women's prisons. Fix prisons.

All prisons are inhumane in the UK and US whether it's women's or men's prisons.

[Galloism]

That's a bit of a stretch Marisa.

They're both right-wing media sources used by authoritarians.

I hear that straight women groping gay men is quite a common and ignored thing as well.

I've seen it myself. It's as if women can rape as they please with the feminists of today.

Well, it's society.

You've got tradcons going around saying men always want sex and you can't rape the willing, and feminists going around insisting that women are pretty much the only victims of rape, and the men who are victims of rape are victims of other men, and that a woman raping a man is approximately as common as watching bigfoot having sex with a unicorn.

The combination narrative leads to a sexist result: namely, that men are raped by women at a rate not significantly disparate, but they are too afraid to report it because of the mockery and possible charges that will result (wasting police time, etc).

This is probably why the most recent study, carried on in many different countries, shows that, on average among college students, more men are raped than women.

Because many women don't respect consent, as they were never taught that it matters.

Being fair, many men don't respect consent either, but there's actually efforts to teach men consent matters. This is not true of women.

[Natapoc]

Because they're followers of "whitebourgeoisciswomanism" instead of true feminism and know if they actually were to go against Islam with their ideology that they'd be imprisoned for life if not executed.

You don't even have to go to the east to find rape culture. Every recent study of western nations that actually uses equal definitions of what is rape (IE, the act that's rape for women who don't consent is rape for men who don't consent) shows that men are raped at approximately equal rates as women are. Perpetration doesn't appear significantly off either.

And yet, when men are raped, it's a subject of laughter and scorn. Men who are raped are called "lucky" and anyone who dares say they feel bad about it "must be gay". There is rape culture here and now in the west.

It's just that it's not the rape culture feminists, as a rule, seek to dismantle. It's the rape culture they seek to reinforce.

You keep spreading this lie about feminism. I don't know why you so badly want to believe that feminists don't care about male rape survivors. We do!

For example, Just this last Friday, everyday feminism posted about the importance of dismantling patriarchal attitudes about male rape victims.

Go here: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/peo ... -be-raped/

Feminists are frequently talking about this and trying to stop it. It's conservatives (esp conservative men) who want to believe men can't be raped. Not feminists.

[Sanctissima]

You don't even have to go to the east to find rape culture. Every recent study of western nations that actually uses equal definitions of what is rape (IE, the act that's rape for women who don't consent is rape for men who don't consent) shows that men are raped at approximately equal rates as women are. Perpetration doesn't appear significantly off either.

And yet, when men are raped, it's a subject of laughter and scorn. Men who are raped are called "lucky" and anyone who dares say they feel bad about it "must be gay". There is rape culture here and now in the west.

It's just that it's not the rape culture feminists, as a rule, seek to dismantle. It's the rape culture they seek to reinforce.

You keep spreading this lie about feminism. I don't know why you so badly want to believe that feminists don't care about male rape survivors. We do!

For example, Just this last Friday, everyday feminism posted about the importance of dismantling patriarchal attitudes about male rape victims.

Go here: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/peo ... -be-raped/

Feminists are frequently talking about this and trying to stop it. It's conservatives (esp conservative men) who want to believe men can't be raped. Not feminists.

Well, not entirely.

There's some really nutty radical feminists out there.

But generally speaking, I think it's safe to say that most feminists understand and recognize male rape.

[Chessmistress]

The thing that it's always funny it's that people still thinks I'm appealing to the right
http://greenpartywomen.org.uk/news/gree ... rison.html

The panel includes Juliet Lyon, Director of the Prison Reform Trust, Denise Marshall, Group Co-ordinator of Birth Companions, a charity that offers support to pregnant women in UK prisons, and Joy Goal, project manager of the Anawin Project in Birmingham.

In advance of the panel, Juliet Lyon from the Prison Reform Trust said: "There are safe, constructive ways to stop wasting lives and money." She continued: "The numbers of women entering custody could be halved. Instead of prison, vulnerable women need to be offered much-needed mental healthcare, treatment for addictions, safe housing and preparation for employment. This would be combined with sound advice on getting out of debt, breaking free from domestic violence, abuse and prostitution and reliable support to take responsibility for their own lives and their children."

Denise Marshall, in explaining the work of Birth Companions, said: "By reducing stress and isolation, we aim to give women and babies a more positive experience and enable mothers to make a fresh start with their baby." Last year, the charity supported 87 women who were pregnant, giving birth or looking after a baby in HMP Holloway.

The panellists will also be joined by Joy Doal, project manager of The Anawin Project, as well as an Anawin project participant. The charity works with women in and out of prison across Birmingham, who are affected by prostitution, drug addiction and domestic violence.

The panel will take place today at 6pm. Green Party conference continues until the 13th of September at the Birmingham Conservatoire, B3.

Update: The Green Party later at conference passed new policy for inclusion in its Policies for a Sustainable Society. It supports reform in the treatment of women in the prison system in line with the recommendations of the report of Baroness Corston, which has since been backed by the Howard League for Penal Reform, the Prison Reform Trust, the Fawcett Society, and many other groups from civil society.

Juliet Lyon, Director of the Prison Reform Trust, is the very same person who wrote the article on the Telegraph I quoted at the beginning...check it
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -good.html

The difference is that the left took this position about women in prisons years ago, now the right is beginning to agree, too: the article on the Telegraph is dated November, 25, 2015....

[United Marxist Nations]

The thing that it's always funny it's that people still thinks I'm appealing to the right
http://greenpartywomen.org.uk/news/gree ... rison.html

The panel includes Juliet Lyon, Director of the Prison Reform Trust, Denise Marshall, Group Co-ordinator of Birth Companions, a charity that offers support to pregnant women in UK prisons, and Joy Goal, project manager of the Anawin Project in Birmingham.

In advance of the panel, Juliet Lyon from the Prison Reform Trust said: "There are safe, constructive ways to stop wasting lives and money." She continued: "The numbers of women entering custody could be halved. Instead of prison, vulnerable women need to be offered much-needed mental healthcare, treatment for addictions, safe housing and preparation for employment. This would be combined with sound advice on getting out of debt, breaking free from domestic violence, abuse and prostitution and reliable support to take responsibility for their own lives and their children."

Denise Marshall, in explaining the work of Birth Companions, said: "By reducing stress and isolation, we aim to give women and babies a more positive experience and enable mothers to make a fresh start with their baby." Last year, the charity supported 87 women who were pregnant, giving birth or looking after a baby in HMP Holloway.

The panellists will also be joined by Joy Doal, project manager of The Anawin Project, as well as an Anawin project participant. The charity works with women in and out of prison across Birmingham, who are affected by prostitution, drug addiction and domestic violence.

The panel will take place today at 6pm. Green Party conference continues until the 13th of September at the Birmingham Conservatoire, B3.

Update: The Green Party later at conference passed new policy for inclusion in its Policies for a Sustainable Society. It supports reform in the treatment of women in the prison system in line with the recommendations of the report of Baroness Corston, which has since been backed by the Howard League for Penal Reform, the Prison Reform Trust, the Fawcett Society, and many other groups from civil society.

Juliet Lyon, Director of the Prison Reform Trust, is the very same person who wrote the article on the Telegraph I quoted at the beginning...check it
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -good.html

The difference is that the left took this position about women in prisons years ago, now the right is beginning to agree, too: the article on the Telegraph is dated November, 25, 2015....

And the point remains: if this reform is aimed at solely improving the condition of one of the sexes (now, their lots are fairly equal in prisons), then it is sexist.

[Galloism]

You don't even have to go to the east to find rape culture. Every recent study of western nations that actually uses equal definitions of what is rape (IE, the act that's rape for women who don't consent is rape for men who don't consent) shows that men are raped at approximately equal rates as women are. Perpetration doesn't appear significantly off either.

And yet, when men are raped, it's a subject of laughter and scorn. Men who are raped are called "lucky" and anyone who dares say they feel bad about it "must be gay". There is rape culture here and now in the west.

It's just that it's not the rape culture feminists, as a rule, seek to dismantle. It's the rape culture they seek to reinforce.

You keep spreading this lie about feminism. I don't know why you so badly want to believe that feminists don't care about male rape survivors. We do!

You got a funny way of showing it. It's like when someone beats you and then claims that they love you.

For example, Just this last Friday, everyday feminism posted about the importance of dismantling patriarchal attitudes about male rape victims.

I'm waiting for them to proudly declare that men are raped at about the same rate as women, thereby bringing it out from "unusual corner case" into "this is actually important".

Feminists are frequently talking about this and trying to stop it.

And trying to reinforce it via legislation.

Chess has pointed out the thingie from Europe where women are especially singled out for protection. This in spite of the fact that male and female victimization is about equal.

It's conservatives (esp conservative men) who want to believe men can't be raped. Not feminists.

No, many feminists just believe - and spout - that men raped by women is approximately as common as bigfoot having sex with a unicorn. They are happy to believe men can be raped by men, but a woman do something bad? That's preposterous.

Hell, despite hard data showing that most men are raped by women at nearly equal rates, which she knew, this feminist has used her institutional power to prevent them from being recognized. Heck, this feminist, faced with evidence that men are raped at approximately the same rate as women, and the vast majority of perpetrators against men are female, tried to double-down and claim that wasn't HER experience so her anecdote is valid.

And, in a previous posting, she has said (and as far as I can tell, never retracted) that female rapes of males is so extremely rare compared to male rape of females.

Minimizing. Erasing.

[Galloism]

You keep spreading this lie about feminism. I don't know why you so badly want to believe that feminists don't care about male rape survivors. We do!

For example, Just this last Friday, everyday feminism posted about the importance of dismantling patriarchal attitudes about male rape victims.

Go here: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/peo ... -be-raped/

Feminists are frequently talking about this and trying to stop it. It's conservatives (esp conservative men) who want to believe men can't be raped. Not feminists.

Well, not entirely.

There's some really nutty radical feminists out there.

But generally speaking, I think it's safe to say that most feminists understand and recognize male rape.

EXCEPT those with institutional power.

Seriously, this sounds to me like "most republicans are serious about cutting back the military and saving government money" and "most republicans are justifiably concerned about racial and religious equality", and then you look at the candidates and go "WTF?"

[Natapoc]

You keep spreading this lie about feminism. I don't know why you so badly want to believe that feminists don't care about male rape survivors. We do!

For example, Just this last Friday, everyday feminism posted about the importance of dismantling patriarchal attitudes about male rape victims.

Go here: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/peo ... -be-raped/

Feminists are frequently talking about this and trying to stop it. It's conservatives (esp conservative men) who want to believe men can't be raped. Not feminists.

Well, not entirely.

There's some really nutty radical feminists out there.

But generally speaking, I think it's safe to say that most feminists understand and recognize male rape.

Sure there are some. I'm sure that there are feminists who believe all sorts of crazy things. Any time you have a large movement there will be some people within it who have odd beliefs or views.

I'm sure you could find a feminist who believes the moon landing was a hoax. But it would be misleading and wrong to suggest that feminists believe the moon landing was a hoax just because you could dig up a few quotes from feminists who believed that.

[The Serbian Empire]

You don't even have to go to the east to find rape culture. Every recent study of western nations that actually uses equal definitions of what is rape (IE, the act that's rape for women who don't consent is rape for men who don't consent) shows that men are raped at approximately equal rates as women are. Perpetration doesn't appear significantly off either.

And yet, when men are raped, it's a subject of laughter and scorn. Men who are raped are called "lucky" and anyone who dares say they feel bad about it "must be gay". There is rape culture here and now in the west.

It's just that it's not the rape culture feminists, as a rule, seek to dismantle. It's the rape culture they seek to reinforce.

You keep spreading this lie about feminism. I don't know why you so badly want to believe that feminists don't care about male rape survivors. We do!

For example, Just this last Friday, everyday feminism posted about the importance of dismantling patriarchal attitudes about male rape victims.

Go here: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/peo ... -be-raped/

Feminists are frequently talking about this and trying to stop it. It's conservatives (esp conservative men) who want to believe men can't be raped. Not feminists.

Finally, they've seen the light. Followed with another feminist saying men can't be raped.

[Natapoc]

You keep spreading this lie about feminism. I don't know why you so badly want to believe that feminists don't care about male rape survivors. We do!

For example, Just this last Friday, everyday feminism posted about the importance of dismantling patriarchal attitudes about male rape victims.

Go here: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/peo ... -be-raped/

Feminists are frequently talking about this and trying to stop it. It's conservatives (esp conservative men) who want to believe men can't be raped. Not feminists.

Finally, they've seen the light. Followed with another feminist saying men can't be raped.

Feminists have been talking about the importance of not ignoring male rape victims for decades. This is nothing new. Feminists will continue to push this issue until patriarchal views of sex and violence change and it is universally recognized that rape is always wrong.

[Galloism]

Finally, they've seen the light. Followed with another feminist saying men can't be raped.

Feminists have been talking about the importance of not ignoring male rape victims for decades. This is nothing new. Feminists will continue to push this issue until patriarchal views of sex and violence change and it is universally recognized that rape is always wrong.

Some feminists.

Some feminists, particularly those with institutional power, have worked their damndest to bury it and redefine things so they can keep rape as something that only men do or pretty much only men do.

As I said once before:

When it comes to feminism and men's issues, it's very complicated. When statutory rape laws were made gender neutral - liberal feminists fought for that change (previously, only girls could be statutorily raped), while radical feminists fought against it. When it comes to recognizing male victoms of rape, some feminists have fought to have it recognized. Some feminists have fought against it tooth and nail.

The sad part is, although liberal feminists beat the radical feminists on statutory rape, the "regular" rape category has not been so lucky. Those feminists opposing recognizing men as legitimate rape victims HAVE the institutional power to continue to make that happen. This is why the CDC's definition is sexist. This is why, although over 200 studies have been done showing men make up roughly half of rape and domestic violence victims, most feminists continue to pretend it's a female problem.

Because those with institutional power continue to use their influence to keep that in the public consciousness, and they oppose, vilify, and attack anyone who might try to change that.

(Incidentally, I hope this WILL change. Feminists, particularly liberal feminists, have done fine and great things for society. They need to defeat the radical feminists in this. Everyone who's victimized deserves justice, not just if they have a vagina. Many radical feminists don't seem to be able to recognize that, and they are the ones with institutional power.)

[Sanctissima]

Well, not entirely.

There's some really nutty radical feminists out there.

But generally speaking, I think it's safe to say that most feminists understand and recognize male rape.

EXCEPT those with institutional power.

Seriously, this sounds to me like "most republicans are serious about cutting back the military and saving government money" and "most republicans are justifiably concerned about racial and religious equality", and then you look at the candidates and go "WTF?"

That's not exactly a fair comparison.

Feminism is a movement.

The Republican Party is a group.

Sure, there are feminist groups, but by and far feminism is at its core a movement. And movements attract all kinds of nutters, since there's quite literally no restrictions on membership. Literally anyone who identifies with a movement can consider themselves as being part of said movement.

Usually the figureheads of a movement are the most vocal, and as such, the most nutty. It's the same situation as with BLM and the MRM. Movements with noble goals spearheaded by less than noble people.

[Galloism]

EXCEPT those with institutional power.

Seriously, this sounds to me like "most republicans are serious about cutting back the military and saving government money" and "most republicans are justifiably concerned about racial and religious equality", and then you look at the candidates and go "WTF?"

That's not exactly a fair comparison.

Feminism is a movement.

The Republican Party is a group.

Sure, there are feminist groups, but by and far feminism is at its core a movement. And movements attract all kinds of nutters, since there's quite literally no restrictions on membership. Literally anyone who identifies with a movement can consider themselves as being part of said movement.

Usually the figureheads of a movement are the most vocal, and as such, the most nutty. It's the same situation as with BLM and the MRM. Movements with noble goals spearheaded by less than noble people.

Then feminism, as a movement, needs to collectively clean house and disown the nutters, loudly and publicly.

Instead of quoting them as authorities. Instead of using their sexist definitions in government studies. Instead of accepting their lies.

We have a situation now where we can prove that rape and domestic violence in the United States occurs at similar rates across both genders. It's a statistical slam dunk.

Start saying it. Start saying men deserve justice.

[Natapoc]

That's not exactly a fair comparison.

Feminism is a movement.

The Republican Party is a group.

Sure, there are feminist groups, but by and far feminism is at its core a movement. And movements attract all kinds of nutters, since there's quite literally no restrictions on membership. Literally anyone who identifies with a movement can consider themselves as being part of said movement.

Usually the figureheads of a movement are the most vocal, and as such, the most nutty. It's the same situation as with BLM and the MRM. Movements with noble goals spearheaded by less than noble people.

Then feminism, as a movement, needs to collectively clean house and disown the nutters, loudly and publicly.

Instead of quoting them as authorities. Instead of using their sexist definitions in government studies. Instead of accepting their lies.

Sadly, in the real world change is slow.

Ideas that were seen as radical and progressive within feminism in the 1960s are now seen as conservative as feminism has moved our culture strongly in the right direction. Political "leaders" are usually made up of older people who got their ideas in a past era and they usually struggle to keep up.

Do you realize that your entire problem with feminism is that we've not yet fully created a sufficiently feminist world? We've not managed to succeed in meeting our goals in every aspect of our culture...

But the thing is, nearly every feminist agrees with that. None of us really think that the world is feminist enough now.

Yes we've not yet met all our goals. But we've radically changed our culture for the better and we're going to keep moving in that direction regardless of if you like it or not.

[Sanctissima]

That's not exactly a fair comparison.

Feminism is a movement.

The Republican Party is a group.

Sure, there are feminist groups, but by and far feminism is at its core a movement. And movements attract all kinds of nutters, since there's quite literally no restrictions on membership. Literally anyone who identifies with a movement can consider themselves as being part of said movement.

Usually the figureheads of a movement are the most vocal, and as such, the most nutty. It's the same situation as with BLM and the MRM. Movements with noble goals spearheaded by less than noble people.

Then feminism, as a movement, needs to collectively clean house and disown the nutters, loudly and publicly.

Instead of quoting them as authorities. Instead of using their sexist definitions in government studies. Instead of accepting their lies.

We have a situation now where we can prove that rape and domestic violence in the United States occurs at similar rates across both genders. It's a statistical slam dunk.

Start saying it. Start saying men deserve justice.

Like I said, movements are tricky things.

Why doesn't the MRM collectively disown all red pillers? Why doesn't BLM collectively denounce out all of its racists? The answer is because they're movements, and movements are very difficult to control.

[Galloism]

Then feminism, as a movement, needs to collectively clean house and disown the nutters, loudly and publicly.

Instead of quoting them as authorities. Instead of using their sexist definitions in government studies. Instead of accepting their lies.

Sadly, in the real world change is slow.

Ideas that were seen as radical and progressive within feminism in the 1960s are now seen as conservative as feminism has moved our culture strongly in the right direction. Political "leaders" are usually made up of older people who got their ideas in a past era and they usually struggle to keep up.

Do you realize that your entire problem with feminism is that we've not yet fully created a sufficiently feminist world? We've not managed to succeed in meeting our goals in every aspect of our culture...

But the thing is, nearly every feminist agrees with that. None of us really think that the world is feminist enough now.

Yes we've not yet met all our goals. But we've radically changed our culture for the better and we're going to keep moving in that direction regardless of if you like it or not.

My problem with the feminist movement, as it stands as a whole mind you, is that it's actually trying to make the world MORE sexist.

We know that domestic violence is visited on men as much as women. What did feminists do? Create the Duluth model - a model which erases male victims of domestic violence.

We know that rape is visited on men as much as women. What did feminists do? Call for an end to violence against women.

We know that prisons are roughly equally shitty for both men and women. What did feminists do? Call for them to be improved for women only.

We know that only men are drafted. Norway changed that so both men and women are drafted. What did feminists do? Call for a reversal, because women shouldn't be drafted because they get pregnant (no, seriously, that was the argument).

India made a law that made rape a gender neutral crime. Both men and women could rape or be raped. What did feminists do? Successfully get the law changed to be made sexist again.

Liberal feminists tried to get statutory rape laws from being gendered to gender neutral. What did radical feminists do? Oppose that with all their might (thankfully, radical feminists lost. This is generally a good thing for gender equality.)


I'm not upset with feminism as a movement because it's not working fast enough. I'm upset with it as a movement because it's working against equality, and working against equality is bad.

[Sanctissima]

Well, not entirely.

There's some really nutty radical feminists out there.

But generally speaking, I think it's safe to say that most feminists understand and recognize male rape.

Sure there are some. I'm sure that there are feminists who believe all sorts of crazy things. Any time you have a large movement there will be some people within it who have odd beliefs or views.

I'm sure you could find a feminist who believes the moon landing was a hoax. But it would be misleading and wrong to suggest that feminists believe the moon landing was a hoax just because you could dig up a few quotes from feminists who believed that.

Eh, I think it's safe to say that all radical feminists are nuts.

In my opinion, anyone who likes the ideas of people like Andrea Dworkin has a few screws loose.

[The Serbian Empire]

Then feminism, as a movement, needs to collectively clean house and disown the nutters, loudly and publicly.

Instead of quoting them as authorities. Instead of using their sexist definitions in government studies. Instead of accepting their lies.

Sadly, in the real world change is slow.

Ideas that were seen as radical and progressive within feminism in the 1960s are now seen as conservative as feminism has moved our culture strongly in the right direction. Political "leaders" are usually made up of older people who got their ideas in a past era and they usually struggle to keep up.

Do you realize that your entire problem with feminism is that we've not yet fully created a sufficiently feminist world? We've not managed to succeed in meeting our goals in every aspect of our culture...

But the thing is, nearly every feminist agrees with that. None of us really think that the world is feminist enough now.

Yes we've not yet met all our goals. But we've radically changed our culture for the better and we're going to keep moving in that direction regardless of if you like it or not.

The problem is politics moves too slowly as the old geezers never clear way. They were progressive 50 years ago, but are outright conservative today. Back then transgender individuals lived in hiding to the point murders of them just for being transgender were rare. These days with more like myself living a bit more in the open although at the fringes, now the deaths have increased because regressive politicians make the laws.

[Natapoc]

Then feminism, as a movement, needs to collectively clean house and disown the nutters, loudly and publicly.

Instead of quoting them as authorities. Instead of using their sexist definitions in government studies. Instead of accepting their lies.

We have a situation now where we can prove that rape and domestic violence in the United States occurs at similar rates across both genders. It's a statistical slam dunk.

Start saying it. Start saying men deserve justice.

Like I said, movements are tricky things.

Why doesn't the MRM collectively disown all red pillers? Why doesn't BLM collectively denounce out all of its racists? The answer is because they're movements, and movements are very difficult to control.

And it's supposed to be that way. We don't have membership, we don't have dues, we don't have cards that can be revoked.

There is literally no way to force someone who believes they are a feminist that they are not one. It just can't be done.

Feminism is a movement and a belief that women should have equal rights to men. I can't force someone to have different ideas in their heads than they claim to have.

[Galloism]

Feminism is a movement and a belief that women should have equal rights to men.

I can't say that this is true, given the vast number of feminists who have shown themselves that they want women to have superior rights to men.

At most, I think we can safely say "feminism is a movement and belief that women should have more rights than they currently have".

That's probably the fairest descriptor.

Sometimes that's on the side of equality. Sometimes it's against.

[Natapoc]

Feminism is a movement and a belief that women should have equal rights to men.

I can't say that this is true, given the vast number of feminists who have shown themselves that they want women to have superior rights to men.

At most, I think we can safely say "feminism is a movement and belief that women should have more rights than they currently have".

That's probably the fairest descriptor.

Sometimes that's on the side of equality. Sometimes it's against.

Do you see the problem with someone outside of feminism, who does not like feminists defining feminism?

Why must you try to redefine feminism in this way? It's wrong and no one except people who already dislike feminism will agree with you.

[Sanctissima]

Feminism is a movement and a belief that women should have equal rights to men.

I can't say that this is true, given the vast number of feminists who have shown themselves that they want women to have superior rights to men.

At most, I think we can safely say "feminism is a movement and belief that women should have more rights than they currently have".

That's probably the fairest descriptor.

Sometimes that's on the side of equality. Sometimes it's against.

I'm just going to take a jab here and say that your own movement that you identify with is no different. You've got just about as many misogynists in the MRM as we have misandrists in feminism. It's pretty hypocritical.