The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Unpredictable Galaxy]

I would like to state first off that I am a man and a feminist.

Can a person be labeled as a feminist and still want to deny women from having abortions? It feels very contradictory and backwards logic to want women to have greater rights while simultaneously wanting to restrict them. How exactly would you define feminism in these cases?

Edit: Sorry if it's veering off an entire discussion going on.

[Arcturus Novus]

I would like to state first off that I am a man and a feminist.

Can a person be labeled as a feminist and still want to deny women from having abortions? It feels very contradictory and backwards logic to want women to have greater rights while simultaneously wanting to restrict them. How exactly would you define feminism in these cases?

Ultimately, feminism means standing up for all women's rights, even the right to choose.

[Unpredictable Galaxy]

I would like to state first off that I am a man and a feminist.

Can a person be labeled as a feminist and still want to deny women from having abortions? It feels very contradictory and backwards logic to want women to have greater rights while simultaneously wanting to restrict them. How exactly would you define feminism in these cases?

Ultimately, feminism means standing up for all women's rights, even the right to choose.

But if someone wants to ban abortions nationwide to where there is no option of choice, what do you say there?

[Des-Bal]

Ultimately, feminism means standing up for all women's rights, even the right to choose.

How about the right to murder?

[Arcturus Novus]

Ultimately, feminism means standing up for all women's rights, even the right to choose.

But if someone wants to ban abortions nationwide to where there is no option of choice, what do you say there?

Then that's antifeminist. A woman- really, a person capable of pregnancy- deserves the right to bodily autonomy. If we suppress that right, then we are not acting in the interests of equality among genders.

[Unpredictable Galaxy]

Ultimately, feminism means standing up for all women's rights, even the right to choose.

How about the right to murder?

You need a hunting license for that, mate.

And this isn't a discussion of right/wrong for abortion, this is about contradictory views within the definition of feminism.

[Unpredictable Galaxy]

But if someone wants to ban abortions nationwide to where there is no option of choice, what do you say there?

Then that's antifeminist. A woman- really, a person capable of pregnancy- deserves the right to bodily autonomy. If we suppress that right, then we are not acting in the interests of equality among genders.

I should say that I totally agree with you; there's just a woman I know who says she's a feminist standing for women's rights, but is heavily pro-life. She's a little... not the most proper.

[Sacred Toast]

But if someone wants to ban abortions nationwide to where there is no option of choice, what do you say there?

Then that's antifeminist. A woman- really, a person capable of pregnancy- deserves the right to bodily autonomy. If we suppress that right, then we are not acting in the interests of equality among genders.

1st I would like to saying banning abortions is like banning men from using condoms


2nd I would argue that even if I don't agree with it, it isn't antifeminist because it isn't lowering a woman's rights below men. It is, however a sketchy subject due to the lack of comparison to the male gender


Edit: original said "because it is lowering a women's right"

[Costa Fierro]

Today I have been accused of having internalized misogyny it has been a bad experience.

Well, you do seem to have misogynistic ideas about what is appropriate behavior for women and what isn't so I'd say whoever said that about you, they're not wrong.

[The Grene Knyght]

I would like to state first off that I am a man and a feminist.

Can a person be labeled as a feminist and still want to deny women from having abortions? It feels very contradictory and backwards logic to want women to have greater rights while simultaneously wanting to restrict them. How exactly would you define feminism in these cases?

Edit: Sorry if it's veering off an entire discussion going on.

It really depends on what definition of feminism you use. The OP of this thread links to 30-something different flavours, so I'd imagina there's some that argue you can be a pro-life feminist.
So I would say yes, you can be labelled a feminist, but not by me.

[Unpredictable Galaxy]

I would like to state first off that I am a man and a feminist.

Can a person be labeled as a feminist and still want to deny women from having abortions? It feels very contradictory and backwards logic to want women to have greater rights while simultaneously wanting to restrict them. How exactly would you define feminism in these cases?

Edit: Sorry if it's veering off an entire discussion going on.

It really depends on what definition of feminism you use. The OP of this thread links to 30-something different flavours, so I'd imagina there's some that argue you can be a pro-life feminist.
So I would say yes, you can be labelled a feminist, but not by me.

Yeah, I don't see it as feminism either. It's just so... backwards. How can you want more and less rights for women? I feel as if those people really haven't delved deep into their ideology and discovered what it truly should work for.

[Des-Bal]

You need a hunting license for that, mate.

And this isn't a discussion of right/wrong for abortion, this is about contradictory views within the definition of feminism.

I'm not debating abortion I'm debating murder. The claim was feminism meant standing up for "all women's rights." That leads to the question "what are women's rights?" If someone says that women don't have the right to go around shooting people in the street that's not anti-woman it's simply saying that murder is one of the rights women don't have. A lot of anti-abortion rhetoric comes from a place of controlling women but I don't think all of it does and I don't think that being against abortion means you should be kicked out of the club.

[The Grene Knyght]

It really depends on what definition of feminism you use. The OP of this thread links to 30-something different flavours, so I'd imagina there's some that argue you can be a pro-life feminist.
So I would say yes, you can be labelled a feminist, but not by me.

Yeah, I don't see it as feminism either. It's just so... backwards. How can you want more and less rights for women? I feel as if those people really haven't delved deep into their ideology and discovered what it truly should work for.

I suppose one explanation for such a mindset is someone who prioritises another, conflicting belief over feminism.
Someone might be a catholic feminist, but identify as a catholic first, and only adhere to feminism when it doesn't conflict with Catholicism.
Thats only a guess at what might make someone think like that, though.

[RFI]

Today I have been accused of having internalized misogyny it has been a bad experience.

Well, you do seem to have misogynistic ideas about what is appropriate behavior for women and what isn't so I'd say whoever said that about you, they're not wrong.

Nope.
They're extremists, their views are tougher than mine, too much tough.

[Unpredictable Galaxy]

You need a hunting license for that, mate.

And this isn't a discussion of right/wrong for abortion, this is about contradictory views within the definition of feminism.

I'm not debating abortion I'm debating murder. The claim was feminism meant standing up for "all women's rights." That leads to the question "what are women's rights?" If someone says that women don't have the right to go around shooting people in the street that's not anti-woman it's simply saying that murder is one of the rights women don't have. A lot of anti-abortion rhetoric comes from a place of controlling women but I don't think all of it does and I don't think that being against abortion means you should be kicked out of the club.

Oh, if you're talking about actual murder, of course women should be allowed to- wait. I'm a guy... I'm at risk...

[Arcturus Novus]

You need a hunting license for that, mate.

And this isn't a discussion of right/wrong for abortion, this is about contradictory views within the definition of feminism.

I'm not debating abortion I'm debating murder. The claim was feminism meant standing up for "all women's rights." That leads to the question "what are women's rights?" If someone says that women don't have the right to go around shooting people in the street that's not anti-woman it's simply saying that murder is one of the rights women don't have. A lot of anti-abortion rhetoric comes from a place of controlling women but I don't think all of it does and I don't think that being against abortion means you should be kicked out of the club.

Nobody has the right to murder except for people that the government hires to do so. And if you say to a woman, "hey, sorry that you don't want this pregnancy, but you can't do shit about it," then that's kind of... I'm not sure if misogynistic is the right word here, but it's certainly unfairly restrictive against women.

[Sacred Toast]

Then that's antifeminist. A woman- really, a person capable of pregnancy- deserves the right to bodily autonomy. If we suppress that right, then we are not acting in the interests of equality among genders.

1st I would like to saying banning abortions is like banning men from using condoms


2nd I would argue that even if I don't agree with it, it isn't antifeminist because it isn't lowering a woman's rights below men. It is, however a sketchy subject due to the lack of comparison to the male gender


Edit: original said "because it is lowering a women's right"

Just wanted to bring this back up

[RFI]

I think that being pro-life is absolutely incompatible with being Feminist.
I know that there are women who call themselves "feminists" while being pro-life but it sounds really absurd to me, like it would be someone calling herself "communist" while voting Trump.

[Galloism]

I think that being pro-life is absolutely incompatible with being Feminist.
I know that there are women who call themselves "feminists" while being pro-life but it sounds really absurd to me, like it would be someone calling herself "communist" while voting Trump.

Communists for Trump.

[Arcturus Novus]

I think that being pro-life is absolutely incompatible with being Feminist.
I know that there are women who call themselves "feminists" while being pro-life but it sounds really absurd to me, like it would be someone calling herself "communist" while voting Trump.

Communists for Trump.

This is obviously a joke. I like that they gave him a Zizek 2016 hat, though. Nice touch.

[The States of Balloon]

But if someone wants to ban abortions nationwide to where there is no option of choice, what do you say there?

Then that's antifeminist. A woman- really, a person capable of pregnancy- deserves the right to bodily autonomy. If we suppress that right, then we are not acting in the interests of equality among genders.

Just stepping in to say that I believe abortion should only be allowed when the female did not consent.

[Des-Bal]

Nobody has the right to murder except for people that the government hires to do so. And if you say to a woman, "hey, sorry that you don't want this pregnancy, but you can't do shit about it," then that's kind of... I'm not sure if misogynistic is the right word here, but it's certainly unfairly restrictive against women.

If you believe in your bones that an abortion takes a human life, that it's morally equivalent to taking a baby out behind the woodshed and shooting it, then I can understand that as an objection based purely in the nature of the act. The fact that women are uniquely effected by pregnancy doesn't mean that doesn't mean that any law addressing pregnancy is a law against women.

[RFI]

I think that being pro-life is absolutely incompatible with being Feminist.
I know that there are women who call themselves "feminists" while being pro-life but it sounds really absurd to me, like it would be someone calling herself "communist" while voting Trump.

Communists for Trump.

Those nuts don't believe Trump is good

Trump is the essence of the neoliberal system and will further the capitalist system to demise.

It's an anti-capitalist strategy, very stupid but still a strategy.

The women who call themselves "feminists" while being pro-life aren't being pro-life as a strategy to destroy the patriarchy.

[Settrah]

Being pro life and being feminist doesn't have to be an oxymoron. It's possible for a person to be feminist in the sense that they ascribe to patriarchy theory, campaign to fight against rape culture or the wage gap, and truly believe third wave feminism's commitment to ensuring gender equality through improving only woman's rights, but simultaneously having very moralistic views on human life that they feel override and take precedence on people's feelings. Their views on anti abortion isn't in the sense of 'woman are inferior, now be forced to keep your child because men say so', more in the sense of 'the miracle of life transcends our petty gender squabbles, and we actually harmonize because of it'.

Disclaimer: I don't actually agree with this, but I can't ignore that it's a thing.

[The Grene Knyght]

Communists for Trump.

Those nuts don't believe Trump is good

Trump is the essence of the neoliberal system and will further the capitalist system to demise.

It's an anti-capitalist strategy, very stupid but still a strategy.

I believe the term is accelerationism.

The women who call themselves "feminists" while being pro-life aren't being pro-life as a strategy to destroy the patriarchy.

That's a pretty reasonable and concise way of defining what is and isn't feminism