Explosion in Ankara, Turkey; 95 dead and 177 wounded

[TomKirk]

I am still leaning towards it being a false flag attack.

It can't be a false flag attack because there isn't any flag. No group has claimed responsibility, and no-one has claimed any strong evidence for one of the suspects over another.

[Tsaraine]

I am reminded of the Oslo bombings and shooting spree by Anders Breivik, in that, before all the information became known, some people on these forums immediately leaped to the conclusion that the attacks had been carried out by ISIS/Al Qaeda/Generic Evil Muslims™ - and were then notably silent when it turned out that the culprit was someone more in line with their own views than not. Which is to say that I think assigning blame before the facts are known is foolhardy and likely to lead to embarrassment.

There is surely an investigation going on; I hope (rather sadly, knowing it probably won't be) that it is non-partisan and discovers the truth of the situation. These rumors that the police were using tear gas and batons to prevent people fleeing the bombing - have they been at all confirmed? It seems like the sort of thing that would be easy enough to fact-check - and of course if it's true it's very worrying. The HDP has accused the AKP of carrying out the attacks - do they have any actual proof beyond the incontrovertible fact that Erdogan is a jerk?

[Ereria]

The HDP has accused the AKP of carrying out the attacks - do they have any actual proof beyond the incontrovertible fact that Erdogan is a jerk?

No, atm it's only speculations. Could have been anyone and there is no proof yet.

[Vistulange]

I am reminded of the Oslo bombings and shooting spree by Anders Breivik, in that, before all the information became known, some people on these forums immediately leaped to the conclusion that the attacks had been carried out by ISIS/Al Qaeda/Generic Evil Muslims™ - and were then notably silent when it turned out that the culprit was someone more in line with their own views than not. Which is to say that I think assigning blame before the facts are known is foolhardy and likely to lead to embarrassment.

There is surely an investigation going on; I hope (rather sadly, knowing it probably won't be) that it is non-partisan and discovers the truth of the situation. These rumors that the police were using tear gas and batons to prevent people fleeing the bombing - have they been at all confirmed? It seems like the sort of thing that would be easy enough to fact-check - and of course if it's true it's very worrying. The HDP has accused the AKP of carrying out the attacks - do they have any actual proof beyond the incontrovertible fact that Erdogan is a jerk?

Well, the allegations of the police attacking protests around the hospitals is true enough. Various news, from the Vancouver Sun to the BBC, have covered it. As for the AKP being behind the attacks, there is no proof as Ereria said. However, several controversial issues push the blame towards the state and the AKP government.

For one, the site of the explosions were very close to the National Intelligence Agency (Milli İstihbarat Teşkilatı, MİT), being only 4-5 kilometers from the MİT's headquarters. It is next to impossible for the national intelligence department of a nation to be unaware of such an attack.

The site was also very close to the security general directorate, again, which is responsible for the police forces. Basically, this attack occurred in the very heart of Turkey, Ankara, and even more, in the heart of Ankara itself. The Justice Minister grinned upon the Interior Minister being asked if he would resign. These things do not bode well at all, even if we do not have any conclusive proof.

Two possibilities exist, both of which are more frightening than the other: Either the state did not have security in the heart of the capital of its country, or it knew of the attack beforehand and did nothing to prevent it.

A CHP MP for Erzincan has proposed that 10 October be a national holiday. While I do like the idea, I do not think that it should be a holiday, but instead a day of commemoration like 10 November. This was the worst terror attack Turkey has known, as such, we cannot let it pass and be forgotten as "just another bombing" in Turkey. This day must be remembered and its victims commemorated every year, so we do not forget the necessity of unity, peace and brotherhood in our own country.

[Konak]

Erdogan is trying to draw Turkey into the middle eastern hellhole. 10 years ago Turkey's only concern was EU membership.

His party is a sinking ship, AKP already lost its legislative majority and is destined to sink deeper and deeper, there's no way out for them. It actually all began with the Gezi protests back in 2013. The secular, modern youth of Turkey rose up and made an irreperable hole in the AKP ship. It's only a matter of time. We didn't rush into the streets for nothing. Gezi was a game-changer event in Turkey. Like a Stalingrad. It blew away Erdogan's caliphate dreams and reminded him that the guardians of the secular Turkish Republic founded by Ataturk are here and strong as ever.

[Olerand]

The HDP has accused the AKP of carrying out the attacks - do they have any actual proof beyond the incontrovertible fact that Erdogan is a jerk?

No, atm it's only speculations. Could have been anyone and there is no proof yet.

If the government is not involved, why is there a media ban on covering this massacre that was issued by the vice-prime minister? Why has Twitter been blocked? Why have numerous figures from the AKP came out against the victims?

[New Werpland]

No, atm it's only speculations. Could have been anyone and there is no proof yet.

If the government is not involved, why is there a media ban on covering this massacre that was issued by the vice-prime minister? Why has Twitter been blocked? Why have numerous figures from the AKP came out against the victims?

Probably to try and limit how much this effects the election in a couple weeks. But the massacre did nothing to help Erdogan as far as I can see.

[Konak]

Erdogan is a lameduck. The future lies in the Gezi youth who will restore the country's foundation settings and return its face towards the EU.

[Olerand]

Erdogan is a lameduck. The future lies in the Gezi youth who will restore the country's foundation settings and return its face towards the EU.

Optimism is good, I suppose. If a little unrealistic.

[Geilinor]

No, atm it's only speculations. Could have been anyone and there is no proof yet.

If the government is not involved, why is there a media ban on covering this massacre that was issued by the vice-prime minister? Why has Twitter been blocked? Why have numerous figures from the AKP came out against the victims?

I hate to compare Turkey to an actual dictatorship, but the Chinese government routinely puts media bans on events that aren't their fault.

[Olerand]

If the government is not involved, why is there a media ban on covering this massacre that was issued by the vice-prime minister? Why has Twitter been blocked? Why have numerous figures from the AKP came out against the victims?

I hate to compare Turkey to an actual dictatorship, but the Chinese government routinely puts media bans on events that aren't their fault.

Well, as you pointed out, Turkey should not be comparable to China. That China bans media mentions of industrial accidents, does not mean Turkey can do the same for terrorist (regardless if this was the IS, or any other faction, this is terrorism) attacks.

[Rio Cana]

It really seems that Turkey is heading toward a showdown just like some of the other nations in the region. After all, since the fall of the Ottomans no real satisfactory solution has been implemented. Luckily, has the economy has developed for the better, the peoples incomes have generally increased. More income gets people to forget for a while there problems. More income generally also leads to better educated people. But more educated people means the people, especially the groups that have tended to be marginalized in this so called democratic nation, want more rights and a say in how things are done in Turkey. Failure to arrive at a solution that satisfies all involved could result in a Turkish Civil war and possible a smaller Turkey. But looking back at Turkish history it does not seem they would bend to the concerns and demands of the marginalized groups.

[Konak]

Erdogan is a lameduck. The future lies in the Gezi youth who will restore the country's foundation settings and return its face towards the EU.

Optimism is good, I suppose. If a little unrealistic.

If you haven't noticed yet; AKP has already lost its majority in the parliament, falling back to %40 from %49. which means they're not able to make law at the moment. But circumstances enable them to play over a little bit more. Under this situation; it's technically possible for opposition parties to form a government that would exclude the AKP, but of course one of them is Turkish nationalist while the other Kurdish nationalist.

[Kubra]

cmon man everyone knows you want to bomb the kurds into oblivion

I wouldn't mind peace if they gave up PKK. Why would I want to bomb kurds if they weren't violent. Of course as long as PKK exists and they demand a k*rdistan, I will always be open for bombing every mountain they hide inside to the ground.

But I would rather have peace in my country so we can develop further as a nation and stop losing our soliders lives. The soldiers that die are the sons of poor people in Turkey, sending their soldiers to the army to die for our rich population that can pay their way out of the army.

"oh no, it's the kurds who are pro war! I want them bombed because of them!"
said every pro war person ever

[Wolfmanne2]

Disgraceful. A government bombing their people. By Christ and Insha'Allah, I hope he doesn't survive the next election. I want to see a strong pro-West Turkey that is blinded by outdated dogmatic illiberal values, not one that bombs their own people.

Your hatred of Kurds - and don't say PKK, you don't hate the PKK, you hate Kurds altogether - is irrational, emotional and extremely racist. It is exactly for this reason that you should not be taken seriously, and it is exactly for this reason people like you need to be kept away from Turkish politics. You are poison and a deadly one at that. All your kind do is divide and separate the various peoples of Turkey. Your fathers were killing Alevis in Maraş and Armenians in Hakkari, you are hunting Kurds in Ankara. Get out of this country. We want to live in peace; Turk, Kurd, Armenian and Laz alike.

Genuinely one of the best things I've seen written on NSG.

[Geilinor]

I hate to compare Turkey to an actual dictatorship, but the Chinese government routinely puts media bans on events that aren't their fault.

Well, as you pointed out, Turkey should not be comparable to China. That China bans media mentions of industrial accidents, does not mean Turkey can do the same for terrorist (regardless if this was the IS, or any other faction, this is terrorism) attacks.

It shouldn't, but the ban isn't necessarily evidence that the government did this.

[Ereria]

I wouldn't mind peace if they gave up PKK. Why would I want to bomb kurds if they weren't violent. Of course as long as PKK exists and they demand a k*rdistan, I will always be open for bombing every mountain they hide inside to the ground.

But I would rather have peace in my country so we can develop further as a nation and stop losing our soliders lives. The soldiers that die are the sons of poor people in Turkey, sending their soldiers to the army to die for our rich population that can pay their way out of the army.

"oh no, it's the kurds who are pro war! I want them bombed because of them!"
said every pro war person ever

dat logic

[Kubra]

"oh no, it's the kurds who are pro war! I want them bombed because of them!"
said every pro war person ever

dat logic

ur logic, not mine
you've decided that sending soldiers to die is a better idea than, say, an independent kurdistan
that's called being pro-war

[Seraven]

My guess is that ISIL's the perpetrator, I mean, why would Kurds want to bomb their own people?

Or the government of Turkey itself. Turkey isn't exactly Kurds' friendliest neighbor.

[Ereria]

dat logic

ur logic, not mine
you've decided that sending soldiers to die is a better idea than, say, an independent kurdistan
that's called being pro-war

Allright mate. Not wanting to give our lands to other people is being pro war.

This is what I mean with we turks being so stupid. There is no other people in the world where you would get called pro war or whatever if you didn't want to give away your own motherlands lands away to another people. You would get called patriotic. We turks are too stupid though. We are arguing about giving a bit of OUR country to someone else.

Do you really believe I want our soldiers to die and I want my country in war? NO! I just want to protect our land from being taken away. But of course you wouldn't understand. All that matters to you is sucking that good EU dick and being ''modernised''. Please go ask if Germany can give a part of it to us Turks then because we are the largest miniority there and just like kurds we can demand land that isn't ours and if Germans say no we will say we are opressed.

[Vistulange]

ur logic, not mine
you've decided that sending soldiers to die is a better idea than, say, an independent kurdistan
that's called being pro-war

Allright mate. Not wanting to give our lands to other people is being pro war.

This is what I mean with we turks being so stupid. There is no other people in the world where you would get called pro war or whatever if you didn't want to give away your own motherlands lands away to another people. You would get called patriotic. We turks are too stupid though. We are arguing about giving a bit of OUR country to someone else.

Do you really believe I want our soldiers to die and I want my country in war? NO! I just want to protect our land from being taken away. But of course you wouldn't understand. All that matters to you is sucking that good EU dick and being ''modernised''. Please go ask if Germany can give a part of it to us Turks then because we are the largest miniority there and just like kurds we can demand land that isn't ours and if Germans say no we will say we are opressed.

Well, yes. I am for unity, as I have mentioned in a previous post. However, I believe that the end to the PKK terror must be achieved without blood, not because of emotional reasons but for more practical reasons. It is almost impossible to end a guerilla war, especially in a region such as Southeastern Anatolia. The very geography of the area makes it impossible to surround and clear out the mountains. Kandil itself is situated in a very difficult area, making it impossible to surround and prevent militants from escaping.

As such, we must attack the PKK on ideological grounds. If the Kurds can have their problems addressed in Parliament, the PKK's armed conflict will lose all legitimacy and this will make it easier to defend our approach from the external forces who may seek to use the PKK's relatively legitimate situation for their own benefit. Note that I do not believe that the PKK had any legitimacy in the first place; in my perspective, the moment a political movement spills blood, it loses its legitimacy. That is, however, besides my point.

Thus, if we do not let the HDP into the Parliament and continue the war, acting as though there are no problems with Kurds and other minority rights, such as Alevi, LGBT and the like, we will only cover up the cracks on the surface and not address said problems, thus forcing future generations to confront them sooner or later. Will we kill and bomb until the end of time, giving our external rivals a constant weapon, hanging like the Sword of Damocles over us no matter what we do?

One way or another, the Kurdish issue needs to be solved, while keeping the territorial integrity of Turkey intact. This can be achieved through disarming the PKK's ideology, in a fashion, by giving them a voice on democratic grounds. That way, we can also control their ends - it's not like the HDP is going to get enough votes to be a majority. That way, we can say that they are in the Parliament and that they can reflect their problems there and they can seek solutions there, instead of up in the mountains.

All in all, having the HDP in the Parliament would further help marginalize the PKK and make them a fringe, pointless armed group who would be recognized as trying to stir up tension, as opposed to being thought of as freedom fighters. I honestly don't understand what you people want: You don't want the HDP to be in the Parliament, you don't want the PKK to exist - well, how do you propose we do that? Do you expect the Kurds in Turkey to just disappear? Or are you just being historically revisionist and saying "We didn't do anything to the Kurds, nope, no sir"? If so, that's blatant intellectual dishonesty and you know it.

[Ereria]

Allright mate. Not wanting to give our lands to other people is being pro war.

This is what I mean with we turks being so stupid. There is no other people in the world where you would get called pro war or whatever if you didn't want to give away your own motherlands lands away to another people. You would get called patriotic. We turks are too stupid though. We are arguing about giving a bit of OUR country to someone else.

Do you really believe I want our soldiers to die and I want my country in war? NO! I just want to protect our land from being taken away. But of course you wouldn't understand. All that matters to you is sucking that good EU dick and being ''modernised''. Please go ask if Germany can give a part of it to us Turks then because we are the largest miniority there and just like kurds we can demand land that isn't ours and if Germans say no we will say we are opressed.

Well, yes. I am for unity, as I have mentioned in a previous post. However, I believe that the end to the PKK terror must be achieved without blood, not because of emotional reasons but for more practical reasons. It is almost impossible to end a guerilla war, especially in a region such as Southeastern Anatolia. The very geography of the area makes it impossible to surround and clear out the mountains. Kandil itself is situated in a very difficult area, making it impossible to surround and prevent militants from escaping.

As such, we must attack the PKK on ideological grounds. If the Kurds can have their problems addressed in Parliament, the PKK's armed conflict will lose all legitimacy and this will make it easier to defend our approach from the external forces who may seek to use the PKK's relatively legitimate situation for their own benefit. Note that I do not believe that the PKK had any legitimacy in the first place; in my perspective, the moment a political movement spills blood, it loses its legitimacy. That is, however, besides my point.

Thus, if we do not let the HDP into the Parliament and continue the war, acting as though there are no problems with Kurds and other minority rights, such as Alevi, LGBT and the like, we will only cover up the cracks on the surface and not address said problems, thus forcing future generations to confront them sooner or later. Will we kill and bomb until the end of time, giving our external rivals a constant weapon, hanging like the Sword of Damocles over us no matter what we do?

One way or another, the Kurdish issue needs to be solved, while keeping the territorial integrity of Turkey intact. This can be achieved through disarming the PKK's ideology, in a fashion, by giving them a voice on democratic grounds. That way, we can also control their ends - it's not like the HDP is going to get enough votes to be a majority. That way, we can say that they are in the Parliament and that they can reflect their problems there and they can seek solutions there, instead of up in the mountains.

All in all, having the HDP in the Parliament would further help marginalize the PKK and make them a fringe, pointless armed group who would be recognized as trying to stir up tension, as opposed to being thought of as freedom fighters. I honestly don't understand what you people want: You don't want the HDP to be in the Parliament, you don't want the PKK to exist - well, how do you propose we do that? Do you expect the Kurds in Turkey to just disappear? Or are you just being historically revisionist and saying "We didn't do anything to the Kurds, nope, no sir"? If so, that's blatant intellectual dishonesty and you know it.

That's true, but if they got HDP, why does PKK still exist?

[Mefpan]

That's true, but if they got HDP, why does PKK still exist?

Mistrust towards Turks spawned from generations of not-quite-civil interaction? Their wishes being ignored, their population subjected to crackdowns, in some instances even their identity denied?

I can kinda see why they're wary when it comes to a legislative-only solution. And whoop-de-fucking-do, along comes the bathtub sultan and proves the fucking hardliners right, kickstarting the next conflict between Turks and Kurds because fuck peace we need an enemy to boost our public support.

Please go ask if Germany can give a part of it to us Turks then because we are the largest miniority there and just like kurds we can demand land that isn't ours and if Germans say no we will say we are opressed.

Except that in many areas in question, Kurds do have a relative majority. I guess we Germans can sign over single houses and scattered neighborhoods over to Turkey, though. Would advise against it given that that's just nasty border-drawing and the bureaucratic clusterfuck of several thousand Turkish-administrated enclaves within Germany will cost far more than the resulting benefits.

Besides, I get the feeling that right now Kurds have a better case when crying oppression in Turkey than Turks in Germany would if they did.

[Napkiraly]

For one, the site of the explosions were very close to the National Intelligence Agency (Milli İstihbarat Teşkilatı, MİT), being only 4-5 kilometers from the MİT's headquarters. It is next to impossible for the national intelligence department of a nation to be unaware of such an attack.

The site was also very close to the security general directorate, again, which is responsible for the police forces. Basically, this attack occurred in the very heart of Turkey, Ankara, and even more, in the heart of Ankara itself.

I'm going to point out that this is a really bad ground to base the accusations on, especially the first one. Suicide bombings usually don't require meticulous planning, and the vests themselves can be quite readily concealed (put on some loose but very covering clothing is the most simple and basic). The more lone wolf, or the less sophistication a plan is, the harder it is for intelligence agencies to discover an impending attack. A 9/11 style attack is unbelievably unlikely due to what it would entail. Getting two suicide bombers to simply drive to a rally in Ankara and then set off their devices is far, far simpler. The only thing that would make it more complicated is if there are frequent security checkpoints throughout the city.

[Vistulange]

For one, the site of the explosions were very close to the National Intelligence Agency (Milli İstihbarat Teşkilatı, MİT), being only 4-5 kilometers from the MİT's headquarters. It is next to impossible for the national intelligence department of a nation to be unaware of such an attack.

The site was also very close to the security general directorate, again, which is responsible for the police forces. Basically, this attack occurred in the very heart of Turkey, Ankara, and even more, in the heart of Ankara itself.

I'm going to point out that this is a really bad ground to base the accusations on, especially the first one. Suicide bombings usually don't require meticulous planning, and the vests themselves can be quite readily concealed (put on some loose but very covering clothing is the most simple and basic). The more lone wolf, or the less sophistication a plan is, the harder it is for intelligence agencies to discover an impending attack. A 9/11 style attack is unbelievably unlikely due to what it would entail. Getting two suicide bombers to simply drive to a rally in Ankara and then set off their devices is far, far simpler. The only thing that would make it more complicated is if there are frequent security checkpoints throughout the city.

Fair enough, in regards to the individual attack. My point is, the MİT is generally unaware and inefficient at recognizing general security threats. Borders are unchecked, Islamists are allowed free rein in the border areas and allowed to seep inland and the like. Of course the MİT could not have stopped this individual attack, but their general negligence may have culminated in this attack.