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Would you kill Gaius Julius Caesar?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Would you kill Caesar? And who would you back in the aftermath?

Sic semper tyrannis bitches!
2
8%
As a loyal Caesarion, no.
4
17%
I sympathise with the liberatores, but no.
5
21%
No, let's see how this plays out...
0
No votes
Now that he's dead, I shall support Brutus, Cicero and Cassius to save the SPQR!
4
17%
Antonious is Caesar's loyal friend and a true Roman, he should lead the Republic.
1
4%
Octavian is Caesar's rightful heir, I shall back him.
4
17%
Caesar trusted Lepidus, let him restore order to the Republic.
1
4%
I back the barking cat, it is an omen!
3
13%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 24

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Wolfmanne
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Would you kill Gaius Julius Caesar?

Postby Wolfmanne » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:24 pm

Wolfmanne here, making an attempt with one of those Infected Mushroom-style threads where we all spend some time pondering about 'what would we do' if we were in some crazy pop fiction/GoT-related/philosophical scenario. Now, instead of picking one of those three, I decided to take dive into history and pick something out for us to ponder. Without further ado, here goes.

You're a Senator in the Roman Republic in 44 BC, with the influence equivalent to that of a backbencher MP in the UK's Parliament. You were either born into the nobility or have risen from the equestrian class by being elected as a Quaestor. You may have done service as a Military Tribune to give your career in politics a good start and if so, you performed as what was expected of you. A few years ago Julius Caesar defeated Pompey Magnus and has established himself as a Dictator. A month ago, he declared himself Dictator for Life.

Caesar has made great efforts to introduce reforms to benefit the people of Rome, such as land reforms, which involve seizing land from the wealthy Senators and redistributing to Roman citizens - particularly his own Legionnaires - which helps in creating employment as well due to the fact that these wealthy Senators rely on slaves, whereas many of these farms are relatively small and are worked by free Romans. Of course, some have questioned whether he actually gives a fig about the people and is just trying to establish himself as a tyrant with the mob standing behind. Indeed, his manner has been one of intimidation for those who oppose his reforms, especially those among the elite who fear the loss of their property. But it can not be denied that the people have certainly benefited from his reforms.

On the other hand, someone like Marcus Tullius Cicero would argue that Caesar's subversion of the constitution to achieves these reforms sets poor precedents for the future and give too much power to Caesar and his cronies. Take into account that by this point Caesar, due to his various constitutional reforms, he now has the ability to stack the Senate with his allies and has been able create a large numbers of Magistrate posts to stack with his followers and allies. You're now very much in a minority of being one of the Senators born noble or being one who rose up from knighthood. Additionally, can someone who has soldiered all their life or has lived their lives in the slums really be expected to be able to run a farm? Perhaps these reforms are necessary in some form, but do not take this into account.

Whilst leaving the Senate house, you are approached by a fellow Senator by the name of Gaius Cassius Longinus. Cassius has invited you to a plot by a group calling themselves the 'liberatores', who claim they plan to 'execute' the 'tyrant' Caesar. He tells you about it, informing you that Marcus Junius Brutus, descendant of the founder of the Republic, Lucius Junius Brutus, is on board with the plot and makes it clear that Caesar has refused to believe that any plot is coming, meaning that if the plot succeeds the liberatores will control Rome and be able to 'save the Republic'. All of a sudden, you see the most extraordinary thing; a cat barking. When you look back, Cassius has disappeared.

So, what do you do now? Do you join the liberatores and establish yourself as one of the conspirators? Do you quietly support them but not actively participate? Do you desperately try to inform Caesar and his allies, even though they laugh at such the notion that Brutus will actually kill Caesar? Or do you just watch it happen than align yourselves to one of the avengers of Caesar, such as Marcus Antonius, Lepidus or Gaius Octavian?

I don't think I'd participate in the assassination, but I would quietly support it and rally behind the liberores in the time that followed. Personally I don't think I have it in me to murder a politician to 'save the Republic' but I certainly do not support subversions of the constitution. Whilst I believe that the people should be helped, I don't think Caesar forcing it down the Senate's throat is the way to go about it and the constitutional reforms should be made to broaden participation in Roman governance, not leaving in the hands of one person. I'd probably join up with the liberatores until they get defeated in Philippi and hope for a pardon by Octavian. I think I would feel regretful that I didn't do much to 'save the Republic', but would be satisfied in the aftermath, as Octavian seemed to respect the traditions and ideals of Rome if not the Republic.
Last edited by Wolfmanne on Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:26 pm

No, but I would have nothing against killing Commodus on the toilet.
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Wolfmanne
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Postby Wolfmanne » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:31 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:No, but I would have nothing against killing Commodus on the toilet.

I think his name was an indication that he would flush the Empire down the toilet.
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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:31 pm

Wolfmanne wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:No, but I would have nothing against killing Commodus on the toilet.

I think his name was an indication that he would flush the Empire down the toilet.

The funny part is that Commodus was the son of Marcus Aurelius.
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Meridiani Planum
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Postby Meridiani Planum » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:39 pm

Honestly, if I were a Roman Senator at the time, I would plunge the dagger into Julius Caesar myself.
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Wolfmanne
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Postby Wolfmanne » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:43 pm

Meridiani Planum wrote:Honestly, if I were a Roman Senator at the time, I would plunge the dagger into Julius Caesar myself.

Yup, along with about forty or so other people. But why is that? Caesar has already made great strides forward for the Roman people, why associate yourself with the people that may be vilified by the people the day after the assassination?
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:43 pm

No. I'd oppose them. Down with the Republic, up with the Principate!

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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:44 pm

Also someone has been watching some Rome recently. :P
Last edited by Napkiraly on Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:45 pm

Probably not, I'm not so brutal.
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Wolfmanne
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Postby Wolfmanne » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:50 pm

Napkiraly wrote:Also someone has been watching some Rome recently. :P

I saw the last episode last night. I'm absolutely bored because binge watching the series is all I had ever been doing these last two weeks, so may as well discuss it here until I get bored and watch something else. Maybe Battlestar Galactica, I dunno.

Napkiraly wrote:No. I'd oppose them. Down with the Republic, up with the Principate!

But who would you support afterwards? Lepidus, the more reasonable supporter of Caesar? Antonious, his loyal if somewhat zealous (not as much as Rome's obviously) follower? Or Octavian, his legal heir?

The Blaatschapen wrote:Probably not, I'm not so brutal.

I'm sure there are many more brutal ways to die in that day and age. Crucifixion, being burnt alive, getting thrown into the sea etc.
Last edited by Wolfmanne on Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Lleu llaw Gyffes
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Postby Lleu llaw Gyffes » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:51 pm

No. Save the Republic is an excellent virtue, but Cassius wished to concentrate Power for the Aristos.

But then, OP cheats. OP defines that I am a Senator, therefore, I conspire for Senate Power.

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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:57 pm

Wolfmanne wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Also someone has been watching some Rome recently. :P

I saw the last episode last night. I'm absolutely bored because binge watching the series is all I had ever been doing these last two weeks, so may as well discuss it here until I get bored and watch something else. Maybe Battlestar Galactica, I dunno.

Napkiraly wrote:No. I'd oppose them. Down with the Republic, up with the Principate!

But who would you support afterwards? Lepidus, the more reasonable supporter of Caesar? Antonious, his loyal if somewhat zealous (not as much as Rome's obviously) follower. Or Octavian, his legal heir?


Aye fair enough. I'd suggest Archer though, that show is swank and dank.

Octavian probably since he's the legal heir. No way would Lepidus get the support of Caesar's followers or his legions to the same extent as the other two could. Antonius actions following the murder kinda sour his actions. I mean it was par the course, but enh Octavian was the legal heir and went out of his way to borrow heavily to ensure that Caesar's will was carried out in regards to donations to the people and to his veterans.

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Wolfmanne
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Postby Wolfmanne » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:58 pm

Lleu llaw Gyffes wrote:No. Save the Republic is an excellent virtue, but Cassius wished to concentrate Power for the Aristos.

But then, OP cheats. OP defines that I am a Senator, therefore, I conspire for Senate Power.

I will agree that 'saving the Republic' is an idealistic view and that had the liberatores actually maintained the Republic as it was for the next 20 years, than it would had been another Octavian who would had transformed the Republic into the Empire in that next. Reform was necessary, but you could sympathise with people like Cicero who opposed Caesar not for the sake of power being loss; rather, for the sake that all the power was being transferred to one man.
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-The Unified Earth Governments-
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Postby -The Unified Earth Governments- » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:58 pm

Since it would obviously be an alternate timeline already, I wouldn't.

Hell I'll try to ensure Romes might by putting in knowledge of other shit.

Lets see the Barbarians at the gates try to break Plate armor bitch!

You're welcome Caesar.
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:00 pm

Nah. I'd be going "I'm Julius Caesar." Unfortunately, I don't think it is as motivating as "I'm Spartacus."
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Republic of the Cristo
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Postby Republic of the Cristo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:02 pm

I would quietly support the liberators. When Augustus comes to reconquer the empire, I will probably be one of the many people he will execute because I will have been a hard-liner republican.
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Xanama
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Postby Xanama » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:03 pm

Can I behead him?

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Pope Joan
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Postby Pope Joan » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:03 pm

He was a threat to the Republic.

The Republic was ready to fall.

What were the realistic alternatives; business as usual?

Given the choice, I would not kill. Death is so often the option for those without vision.
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:04 pm

Xanama wrote:Can I behead him?

They'd crucify you if you behead him because the Senate did not have a chance to kill Julius Caesar.
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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:05 pm

Well as a Senator, my mind set would be different in some fashion i guess, honestly dont know though, i dont think i would.
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Xanama
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Postby Xanama » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:06 pm

Luziyca wrote:
Xanama wrote:Can I behead him?

They'd crucify you if you behead him because the Senate did not have a chance to kill Julius Caesar.

I'd rather be poisoned :p

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Wolfmanne
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Postby Wolfmanne » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:10 pm

Luziyca wrote:Nah. I'd be going "I'm Julius Caesar." Unfortunately, I don't think it is as motivating as "I'm Spartacus."

If you were Caesar I'd make sure that I was the first to get a good stab in :P.

-The Unified Earth Governments- wrote:Since it would obviously be an alternate timeline already, I wouldn't.

Hell I'll try to ensure Romes might by putting in knowledge of other shit.

Lets see the Barbarians at the gates try to break Plate armor bitch!

You're welcome Caesar.

You could create an entire cult, maybe write a bunch of scrolls with specific instructions to various Roman Emperors which different generations of cultists deliver. Your cultists may be laughed at first but when they start getting it right, than you will have prevented the rise of Christianity because your holy book is actually historically accurate.

Republic of the Cristo wrote:I would quietly support the liberators. When Augustus comes to reconquer the empire, I will probably be one of the many people he will execute because I will have been a hard-liner republican.

Why would you be a hardline republican?

Pope Joan wrote:He was a threat to the Republic.

The Republic was ready to fall.

What were the realistic alternatives; business as usual?

Given the choice, I would not kill. Death is so often the option for those without vision.

So what would you do after the assassination?
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Trotskylvania
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Postby Trotskylvania » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:10 pm

Considering that the Optimates who opposed Caesar were the ones who murdered the republic with the investiture of the Principate in Augustus, it seems to me once again we've fallen prey to history being written by that asshole Victor.

Gaius Julius Caesar's actions only make sense if they are interpreted through the lens of a populist strongman trying to save the Republic from itself. Caesar's reforms enhanced the power of the democratic assemblies at the expense of the self-appointed autocracy that was the Senatorial class. He established himself as dictator perpetuo, not as monarch, because he intended to for the emergency period to die with him.

So no, I would not kill Caesar. Those who murdered him were traitors to the Republic who established a true monarchy rather than relinquish power to the proletari.
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:11 pm

Wolfmanne wrote:
Luziyca wrote:Nah. I'd be going "I'm Julius Caesar." Unfortunately, I don't think it is as motivating as "I'm Spartacus."

If you were Caesar I'd make sure that I was the first to get a good stab in :P

And if you were Caesar, I'd plead for you to stop doing such reckless things, because if you die, it'd be difficult filling that spot south of me. ;)
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Wolfmanne
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Postby Wolfmanne » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:14 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:Well as a Senator, my mind set would be different in some fashion i guess, honestly dont know though, i dont think i would.

I'm slightly basing what I would do on my own actual moderate conservatism. If we were all born in this time period, our circumstances would certainly be a lot different back then; for instance, if I had served as a tribune under Caesar, than I think I would be more alligned with the viewpoint of the populares and would follow Antonious after. On the other hands, if I was born into some immensely wealthy family, than I'd expect that I would back the plot. Then if I was just an ordinary guy with a trade, I guess I would be pretty pissed off with the Senate in general because they killed the one man getting the job done.
Cicero thinks I'm Rome's Helen of Troy and Octavian thinks he'll get his money, the stupid fools.

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