Islamic State Crisis Megathread (ISIS/ISIL/IS) II

[Ganos Lao]

The US, albeit indirectly, played a significant role in the rise of ISIS.

Maybe indirectly in the case of Syria, but directly in the case of Iraq.

If America and company (because it's not just America at fault) had insisted in good government in Iraq rather than settling for al-Maliki, the man who may have single handedly killed his country (if Iraq ends up being partitioned; like that would solve anything), then maybe, just maybe, ISIS wouldn't have developed into what it is right now.

Al-Maliki deliberately antagonized the Sunni population. He deprived them of their rights and liberties. He pulled a Duvalier on the Iraqi people, stealing billions. He committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. He was, overall, a real fucking prick.

And yet what happened? Not only was he supported, but the media, yes, our media, painted him as a victim of Islamic terrorism. They painted the man who drove so many Sunnis into the hands of ISIS as a victim and ally in the struggle against ISIS.

The Geneva International Centre for Justice sent an urgent appeal following numerous reports of this crap, and yet al-Maliki has not faced justice. He has not been held to account. He will get away with his crimes, and be lauded as a hero, and only a handful of people will ever see the truth behind the claptrap.

ISIS only was able to do anything in Syria because al-Maliki got BTFO by them to the point Baghdad nearly fell numerous times to them. ISIS only became a thing because of al-Maliki, who only became a thing because of the United States and other countries.

And some would say, well, it's just realpolitik in action, and yet they couldn't get someone who'd have done a better job?

Basically, it was the Western nations, led by inept politicians, and the corrupt buddies of theirs in the Middle East, who are to blame for the problem. But even worse, they not only have no ideas on how to really fix things, but have no real desire to do so.

[Novus America]

No. ISIS came from AQI. Who we fought in Iraq.
ISIS did not cause the rebellion against Assad. They simply used the vacuum to seize some desert in the east. ISIS came after the rebellion was already underway. ISIS is not the main issue in Syria, just a horror filled side show.

Do you have any source for your conspiracies? We were actually on decent terms with Assad before the rebellion.

Arab people are not just mindless CIA drones. They are real people with real feelings who make real decisions on their own. And many do not enjoy poverty and opression. When they are been starved and killed the will fight back.

It's worth noting that the funding and training the FSA received played a pretty significant role in the rise of ISIS when a massive chunk of their forces jumped ship and joined the Salafists. The US, albeit indirectly, played a significant role in the rise of ISIS.

Source? The funding we provided the FSA was pretty minimal. Yeah we played a accidental role in the rise of ISIS. But like I said ISIS is just a side show in Syria. Not the source of most of the death and fighting.

[Washington Resistance Army]

It's worth noting that the funding and training the FSA received played a pretty significant role in the rise of ISIS when a massive chunk of their forces jumped ship and joined the Salafists. The US, albeit indirectly, played a significant role in the rise of ISIS.

Source? The funding we provided the FSA was pretty minimal. Yeah we played a accidental role in the rise of ISIS. But like I said ISIS is just a side show in Syria. Not the source of most of the death and fighting.

They control a damn large portion of the country, they're beyond the sideshow stage.

[Novus America]

It is true. And Assad's regime is cleary not stable. If it was no one would care about him.

Wasn't Iraq stable under Saddam? So why didn't people not care about him?

Not really. His regime fell so quickly and easily. It was just a powder keg ready to blow.

But yeah we screwed up in Iraq. But we were still ignoring Assad. Iraq was a special circumstance and not one we want to repeat.

[Novus America]

Source? The funding we provided the FSA was pretty minimal. Yeah we played a accidental role in the rise of ISIS. But like I said ISIS is just a side show in Syria. Not the source of most of the death and fighting.

They control a damn large portion of the country, they're beyond the sideshow stage.

That is mostly empty desert... There is a reason Asaad and Russia have basically igonored them. Nobody really wants the lands they have enough.

[Washington Resistance Army]

They control a damn large portion of the country, they're beyond the sideshow stage.

That is mostly empty desert... There is a reason Asaad and Russia have basically igonored them. Nobody really wants the lands they have enough.

Maybe so for the south, but the east has plenty of towns and cities. Likewise with their territory in the north.

[Sanctissima]

The US, albeit indirectly, played a significant role in the rise of ISIS.

Maybe indirectly in the case of Syria, but directly in the case of Iraq.

If America and company (because it's not just America at fault) had insisted in good government in Iraq rather than settling for al-Maliki, the man who may have single handedly killed his country (if Iraq ends up being partitioned; like that would solve anything), then maybe, just maybe, ISIS wouldn't have developed into what it is right now.

Al-Maliki deliberately antagonized the Sunni population. He deprived them of their rights and liberties. He pulled a Duvalier on the Iraqi people, stealing billions. He committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. He was, overall, a real fucking prick.

And yet what happened? Not only was he supported, but the media, yes, our media, painted him as a victim of Islamic terrorism. They painted the man who drove so many Sunnis into the hands of ISIS as a victim and ally in the struggle against ISIS.

The Geneva International Centre for Justice sent an urgent appeal following numerous reports of this crap, and yet al-Maliki has not faced justice. He has not been held to account. He will get away with his crimes, and be lauded as a hero, and only a handful of people will ever see the truth behind the claptrap.

ISIS only was able to do anything in Syria because al-Maliki got BTFO by them to the point Baghdad nearly fell numerous times to them. ISIS only became a thing because of al-Maliki, who only became a thing because of the United States and other countries.

And some would say, well, it's just realpolitik in action, and yet they couldn't get someone who'd have done a better job?

Basically, it was the Western nations, led by inept politicians, and the corrupt buddies of theirs in the Middle East, who are to blame for the problem. But even worse, they not only have no ideas on how to really fix things, but have no real desire to do so.

Not hearing any arguments from me there.

The US has a history of invading countries on a bit of a whim and then half-assing the reconstruction part. Personally, I'd like nothing more than to see al-Maliki hanged. You know he's a shithead when even the Saudi royals think he's incompetent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouri_al-Maliki#Relationship_with_Saudi_Arabia

[Novus America]

Assad has become Too Big To Fail. Anyone can see he fucked up craptacularly but people are screaming to bail him out because everyone is scared of what might happen if he collapses.

Exactly. I've said it time and time again (yet I get painted as an "Assad supporter" because of it) that Assad falling will do fuck all for Syria or the region as a whole.

But that doesn't stop Washington and its cronies from insisting that he needs to go. They are putting their self-absorbed lust for looking good to their electorates ("See? Look how great we are by toppling these dictators guiz!!!") over logic and reason, all the while the commoners in both the Middle East and in their lands suffer the blowback.

Assad is literally the plug that's keeping the migrant crisis from reaching critical levels, and yet all of them are desperately pulling at it, trying to get Putin out of the way.

If Assad or al-Baghdadi are ever captured and alive long enough to do it, I hope they manage to make a speech talking about this stuff, just tearing right into these morons. Then they can go join Saddam in laughing their asses off in their graves or Hell or wherever you fashion them going.

I have posted sources numerous time showing the vast majority of refugees are fleeing Assad. Not ISIS. That they will not go back while Assad is in power. He has to go, but in negotiated scenario. Obviously simply killing him or overthrowing him does not help.

[Ganos Lao]

Wasn't Iraq stable under Saddam? So why didn't people not care about him?

Not really. His regime fell so quickly and easily. It was just a powder keg ready to blow.

But yeah we screwed up in Iraq. But we were still ignoring Assad. Iraq was a special circumstance and not one we want to repeat.

His regime "fell so quickly and easily" not because of the people, but because of the armies of all those countries who were sent to remove him once and for all. That's not to say there was no opposition to Saddam, but it's not so cut and dry, you know?

If his regime was really as bad as you say, then he would've fallen long before the Iraq War.

Also, consider this article written by an Iraqi citizen who lived under Saddam's regime.

[Sanctissima]

It's worth noting that the funding and training the FSA received played a pretty significant role in the rise of ISIS when a massive chunk of their forces jumped ship and joined the Salafists. The US, albeit indirectly, played a significant role in the rise of ISIS.

Source? The funding we provided the FSA was pretty minimal. Yeah we played a accidental role in the rise of ISIS. But like I said ISIS is just a side show in Syria. Not the source of most of the death and fighting.

Can't find anything at the moment, but I recall several hundred rebels being trained in Jordan, and Obama having asked Congress to approve a $500 million cheque for the FSA. Not exactly the bulk of ISIS funding, but the US did play a role nonetheless.

[Novus America]

Not really. His regime fell so quickly and easily. It was just a powder keg ready to blow.

But yeah we screwed up in Iraq. But we were still ignoring Assad. Iraq was a special circumstance and not one we want to repeat.

His regime "fell so quickly and easily" not because of the people, but because of the armies of all those countries who were sent to remove him once and for all. That's not to say there was no opposition to Saddam, but it's not so cut and dry, you know?

If his regime was really as bad as you say, then he would've fallen long before the Iraq War.

Also, consider this article written by an Iraqi citizen who lived under Saddam's regime.

No. As your own article says nobody wanted to fight for it. It would have fallen just like Egypt in the Arab Spring. Just because it survived a while did not mean it was going to survive.

And that article is from a Sunni from a family connected with the regime. Yes things were better for the Sunni elite under Saddam. But horrible for everyone else.

But we still screwed it up big time. Not denying that.

[Ganos Lao]

Exactly. I've said it time and time again (yet I get painted as an "Assad supporter" because of it) that Assad falling will do fuck all for Syria or the region as a whole.

But that doesn't stop Washington and its cronies from insisting that he needs to go. They are putting their self-absorbed lust for looking good to their electorates ("See? Look how great we are by toppling these dictators guiz!!!") over logic and reason, all the while the commoners in both the Middle East and in their lands suffer the blowback.

Assad is literally the plug that's keeping the migrant crisis from reaching critical levels, and yet all of them are desperately pulling at it, trying to get Putin out of the way.

If Assad or al-Baghdadi are ever captured and alive long enough to do it, I hope they manage to make a speech talking about this stuff, just tearing right into these morons. Then they can go join Saddam in laughing their asses off in their graves or Hell or wherever you fashion them going.

I have posted sources numerous time showing the vast majority of refugees are fleeing Assad. Not ISIS. That they will not go back while Assad is in power. He has to go, but in negotiated scenario. Obviously simply killing him or overthrowing him does not help.

Syrians are fleeing from forces which cause devastation, whoever that may be (Assad, ISIS, etc). The whole country is a crapshoot right now. I imagine that alone would drive many of them to fleeing from it.

And Assad going without violence won't stop the successor from inagurating his rule with violence. You cannot trust the people in charge now to do the right things, Novus.

Trust the guys who fumbled the ball with Iraq to fix Syria? I mean, come on now.

[Ganos Lao]

His regime "fell so quickly and easily" not because of the people, but because of the armies of all those countries who were sent to remove him once and for all. That's not to say there was no opposition to Saddam, but it's not so cut and dry, you know?

If his regime was really as bad as you say, then he would've fallen long before the Iraq War.

Also, consider this article written by an Iraqi citizen who lived under Saddam's regime.

No. As your own article says nobody wanted to fight for it. It would have fallen just like Egypt in the Arab Spring. Just because it survived a while did not mean it was going to survive.

And that article is from a Sunni from a family connected with the regime. Yes things were better for the Sunni elite under Saddam. But horrible for everyone else.

But we still screwed it up big time. Not denying that.

But as my own article said, America screwed things up long before the Iraq War, that it wasn't just the invasion and the rest of the piss-poorly planned actions that caused problems.

[Novus America]

I have posted sources numerous time showing the vast majority of refugees are fleeing Assad. Not ISIS. That they will not go back while Assad is in power. He has to go, but in negotiated scenario. Obviously simply killing him or overthrowing him does not help.

Syrians are fleeing from forces which cause devastation, whoever that may be (Assad, ISIS, etc). The whole country is a crapshoot right now. I imagine that alone would drive many of them to fleeing from it.

And Assad going without violence won't stop the successor from inagurating his rule with violence. You cannot trust the people in charge now to do the right things, Novus.

Trust the guys who fumbled the ball with Iraq to fix Syria? I mean, come on now.

Did I say I trusted the current US administration?

So we should trust Assad despite his fumble?

There are no easy answers here.

[Ganos Lao]

Syrians are fleeing from forces which cause devastation, whoever that may be (Assad, ISIS, etc). The whole country is a crapshoot right now. I imagine that alone would drive many of them to fleeing from it.

And Assad going without violence won't stop the successor from inagurating his rule with violence. You cannot trust the people in charge now to do the right things, Novus.

Trust the guys who fumbled the ball with Iraq to fix Syria? I mean, come on now.

Did I say I trusted the current US administration?

So we should trust Assad despite his fumble?

There are no easy answers here.

Did I say that you trusted them? Not at all.

And nor did I say we should trust Assad. How many times do I have to explain my position doesn't mean I support Assad?

[Novus America]

Did I say I trusted the current US administration?

So we should trust Assad despite his fumble?

There are no easy answers here.

Did I say that you trusted them? Not at all.

And nor did I say we should trust Assad. How many times do I have to explain my position doesn't mean I support Assad?

Yes. I know. So what do we do? We have only shitty choices here.

Dammed if we do, dammed if we do not.

[Gauthier]

Assad has become Too Big To Fail. Anyone can see he fucked up craptacularly but people are screaming to bail him out because everyone is scared of what might happen if he collapses.

Exactly. I've said it time and time again (yet I get painted as an "Assad supporter" because of it) that Assad falling will do fuck all for Syria or the region as a whole.

But that doesn't stop Washington and its cronies from insisting that he needs to go. They are putting their self-absorbed lust for looking good to their electorates ("See? Look how great we are by toppling these dictators guiz!!!") over logic and reason, all the while the commoners in both the Middle East and in their lands suffer the blowback.

Assad is literally the plug that's keeping the migrant crisis from reaching critical levels, and yet all of them are desperately pulling at it, trying to get Putin out of the way.

If Assad or al-Baghdadi are ever captured and alive long enough to do it, I hope they manage to make a speech talking about this stuff, just tearing right into these morons. Then they can go join Saddam in laughing their asses off in their graves or Hell or wherever you fashion them going.

And the point of Too Big to Fail is that people are scared of letting them run free to fuck up again because if they collapse the rest of the world suffers. Basically the whole word has to babysit Assad because he's prone to doing the exact same stupid shit that triggered the civil war in the first place. There's no sense of karma involved here.

[Ganos Lao]

Exactly. I've said it time and time again (yet I get painted as an "Assad supporter" because of it) that Assad falling will do fuck all for Syria or the region as a whole.

But that doesn't stop Washington and its cronies from insisting that he needs to go. They are putting their self-absorbed lust for looking good to their electorates ("See? Look how great we are by toppling these dictators guiz!!!") over logic and reason, all the while the commoners in both the Middle East and in their lands suffer the blowback.

Assad is literally the plug that's keeping the migrant crisis from reaching critical levels, and yet all of them are desperately pulling at it, trying to get Putin out of the way.

If Assad or al-Baghdadi are ever captured and alive long enough to do it, I hope they manage to make a speech talking about this stuff, just tearing right into these morons. Then they can go join Saddam in laughing their asses off in their graves or Hell or wherever you fashion them going.

And the point of Too Big to Fail is that people are scared of letting them run free to fuck up again because if they collapse the rest of the world suffers. Basically the whole word has to babysit Assad because he's prone to doing the exact same stupid shit that triggered the civil war in the first place. There's no sense of karma involved here.

The whole world has to babysit the entire region, let alone Assad, because it's prone to doing the exact same stupid shit that triggers all these conflicts in the first place.

It collapses, and the rest of the world suffers, etc, etc.

It's just a sick charade no matter how you look at it, really.

[Ganos Lao]

Did I say that you trusted them? Not at all.

And nor did I say we should trust Assad. How many times do I have to explain my position doesn't mean I support Assad?

Yes. I know. So what do we do? We have only shitty choices here.

Dammed if we do, dammed if we do not.

Quite honestly?

Just let it burn.

[North Arkana]

Yes. I know. So what do we do? We have only shitty choices here.

Dammed if we do, dammed if we do not.

Quite honestly?

Just let it burn.

I mean, we could at least help keep the Kurds alive.

[Ganos Lao]

Quite honestly?

Just let it burn.

I mean, we could at least help keep the Kurds alive.

Sure we could. I'd welcome such an endeavor myself. God/Allah/whoever bless those men and women who sacrifice their lives fighting those Daesh bastards.

But they don't make any money for the elite. They just do the elite's dirty work while the elite get all the glory.

So they will be sacrificed in the name of diplomacy with Team Erdogan and "Iraq ain't that bad, guys, honest!"

The Kurds' best hope right now is in Syria, but fret not, NATO/Turkey/Iraq will try to ruin that somehow too.

But the Kurds are reportedly hounding after innocent Sunnis and doing some rather reprehensible things to them.

If this becomes a common thing, then screw them. The last thing that should be done is helping yet another bunch of murdering morons.

[North Arkana]

I mean, we could at least help keep the Kurds alive.

Sure we could. I'd welcome such an endeavor myself. God/Allah/whoever bless those men and women who sacrifice their lives fighting those Daesh bastards.

But they don't make any money for the elite. They just do the elite's dirty work while the elite get all the glory.

So they will be sacrificed in the name of diplomacy with Team Erdogan and "Iraq ain't that bad, guys, honest!"

The Kurds' best hope right now is in Syria, but fret not, NATO/Turkey/Iraq will try to ruin that somehow too.

But the Kurds are reportedly hounding after innocent Sunnis and doing some rather reprehensible things to them.

If this becomes a common thing, then screw them. The last thing that should be done is helping yet another bunch of murdering morons.

Of course, the source of most of the accusations against the Kurds comes from those who have a bone to pick with the them in the first place.

[Kubra]

I mean, we could at least help keep the Kurds alive.

Sure we could. I'd welcome such an endeavor myself. God/Allah/whoever bless those men and women who sacrifice their lives fighting those Daesh bastards.

But they don't make any money for the elite. They just do the elite's dirty work while the elite get all the glory.

So they will be sacrificed in the name of diplomacy with Team Erdogan and "Iraq ain't that bad, guys, honest!"

The Kurds' best hope right now is in Syria, but fret not, NATO/Turkey/Iraq will try to ruin that somehow too.

But the Kurds are reportedly hounding after innocent Sunnis and doing some rather reprehensible things to them.

If this becomes a common thing, then screw them. The last thing that should be done is helping yet another bunch of murdering morons.

Kurds are doing what everyone else in a civil war does. You take a village, recruit the folks who will run with you, get rid of the ones who won't. In this way, one secures their rear. It's shitty, but civil war itself is the shittiest of shitty. Saying"fuck all these guys" doesn't mediate conflict, nor does it put one in a good position when it finally ends.

[Novus America]

Yes. I know. So what do we do? We have only shitty choices here.

Dammed if we do, dammed if we do not.

Quite honestly?

Just let it burn.

I wish we could, but we did that in Afganistan. Got us 9-11. We cannot let it burn without getting caught in the flames. Let it burn in we get economic dusruptions, make the refugee crisis ten times worse, and terror attacks.

I cannot in good conscience advocate nuclear carpet bombing. But that would be the only way to make it not a problem.

No good choices.

[Ganos Lao]

Quite honestly?

Just let it burn.

I wish we could, but we did that in Afganistan. Got us 9-11. We cannot let it burn without getting caught in the flames. Let it burn in we get economic dusruptions, make the refugee crisis ten times worse, and terror attacks.

I cannot in good conscience advocate nuclear carpet bombing. But that would be the only way to make it not a problem.

No good choices.

No, what happened in Afghanistan was America put fuel on the fire (funding the mujahideen) to get yet another one up on the Soviets. 9-11 was simply the Cold War back and forth biting the US on the ass. If America just let it burn in Afghanistan, that country would look rather differently today.

And sadly, yes, nuclear carpet bombing is the only way to fix things, if one just wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. And no one could approve that, no doubt. Instead, we must settle for inept politicians gorging themselves on the misery of the region's inhabitants, all the while getting convenient moments in the spotlight to go "see, see, we need to do this, guys!" when it bites them in the ass (Paris, San Bernardino, etc).

People wonder why the right wing are getting more and more uppity these days, why the migrants are flocking to European countries, etc, etc. It is all part of the self-serving cycle that these insipid morons have created. Orwell once wrote that if you want to imagine the future, imagine a human boot stepping on a human face.

What's going on is that people are literally laying down and eagerly awaiting that boot.