Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Part Deux

[West Aurelia]

Why is it so hard for everyone to agree that banning communist parties is an oppressive suppression of free speech?

[Geilinor]

Why is it so hard for everyone to agree that banning communist parties is an oppressive suppression of free speech?

It is a restriction on free speech, but not the biggest issue right now. It's really because Soviet symbols are banned.

[Kubra]

again: it's better to be a communist under russia than the ukraine. One grants marginal political representation, the other does not.

Marginal? The commies represent about a fifth of Russia's electorate. That's hefty in my book.

There is a difference. The Communists in Russia are hardcore nationalits who adore Putin and mostly support his policies while in Ukraine communists are mostly russophilic to the extend to be unpatriotic.

Zyuganov adoring Putin?

Good one!

I mean, it would be hefty, if it were a party that wasn't the KPRF. Zyuganov might not be a Putin fan, but he's a straight up warhawk for the Ukraine conflict and a russophile to boot.

[Shofercia]

Marginal? The commies represent about a fifth of Russia's electorate. That's hefty in my book.




Zyuganov adoring Putin?

Good one!

I mean, it would be hefty, if it were a party that wasn't the KPRF. Zyuganov might not be a Putin fan, but he's a straight up warhawk for the Ukraine conflict and a russophile to boot.

Most commies are Russophiles, and there's nothing wrong with being a Russophile. Regarding being a warhawk for Ukraine, who isn't? It's impossible not to see the stream of refugees, https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/1 ... a-o01.html, into Russia. And these refugees aren't saying nice stuff about Poroshenko/Yatsenuyk. What would you do in his place? Furthermore, the issue with KPRF is the shadow casting over Zyuganov chickening out in the 1990s. He won the 1996 election, but chickened out after pressure, and so the results weren't properly reviewed, and Russia ended up being stuck with the Yeltsin disaster, until Clinton bombed Belgrade and the Russian Armed Forces couped Yeltsin, and... Pristina Airstrip, and all that stuff. But CPRF does quite a bit for the Russian working class.

Why is it so hard for everyone to agree that banning communist parties is an oppressive suppression of free speech?

It is a restriction on free speech, but not the biggest issue right now. It's really because Soviet symbols are banned.

No, the biggest issue is the economy. If you're banning symbols because you cannot control Neo-Nazis and must placate them, does this make me more or less likely to invest in your country? No one's saying that it's the biggest issue for Ukraine.

[Geilinor]

I mean, it would be hefty, if it were a party that wasn't the KPRF. Zyuganov might not be a Putin fan, but he's a straight up warhawk for the Ukraine conflict and a russophile to boot.

Most commies are Russophiles, and there's nothing wrong with being a Russophile. Regarding being a warhawk for Ukraine, who isn't? It's impossible not to see the stream of refugees, https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/1 ... a-o01.html, into Russia.

It's hard to argue that Russia isn't partly responsible for the conflict in Ukraine.

[United Marxist Nations]

Marginal? The commies represent about a fifth of Russia's electorate. That's hefty in my book.




Zyuganov adoring Putin?

Good one!

I mean, it would be hefty, if it were a party that wasn't the KPRF. Zyuganov might not be a Putin fan, but he's a straight up warhawk for the Ukraine conflict and a russophile to boot.

A Russian likes Russia, who would have thought?

[New Werpland]

I mean, it would be hefty, if it were a party that wasn't the KPRF. Zyuganov might not be a Putin fan, but he's a straight up warhawk for the Ukraine conflict and a russophile to boot.

A Russian likes Russia, who would have thought?

Russophile usually pertains to something more than reasonable Russian nationalism.

To elaborate if a Russophile is someone who simply likes russia, makarevich must be a russophobe.

[Shofercia]

Most commies are Russophiles, and there's nothing wrong with being a Russophile. Regarding being a warhawk for Ukraine, who isn't? It's impossible not to see the stream of refugees, https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/1 ... a-o01.html, into Russia.

It's hard to argue that Russia isn't partly responsible for the conflict in Ukraine.

Of course Russia's partly responsible for the conflict, but the Russians aren't the ones indiscriminately shelling the civilians. Most of the refugees from the conflict fled to Russia, the side that's not shelling them. Most of the shelling is done by Wrong Sector and Ukraine's armed forces. Refugees generally flee away from the shelling, not towards the shelling, so the fact that most are fleeing to Russia should tell you something. In the West, it's just passing news. In Russia, it's a fact of life. Nearly 1 in 200 people in Russia is a refugee from Ukraine. Here's Itar Tass quoting the UN: http://tass.ru/en/world/804345

Number of Ukrainians who have fled to neighboring countries after the outbreak of the armed civil conflict in Donbass in spring 2014 has exceeded 900,000 and most of them have found shelter in Russia, of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees said in a report on Friday. Information from governmental sources in the host countries suggests that the overall number of refugees seeking shelter or looking for other legal forms of residence in neighboring states has reached 900,300 people and most of them, or 746,000 have headed for Russia.

Country of destination number two for them is Belarus where 81,200 refugees have arrived, the report indicated. As for the European countries, some 4,600 Ukrainian refugees have come to Germany, 3,600 to Poland and 2,900 to Italy. In addition to it, a total of 1.35 million Ukrainians have been compelled to abandon their homes and have received the status of internally displaced persons. Of that number, 807,000 are retired people, while another 171,000 are children and 57,500 are disabled.

The UN refugee agency stated a sharp deterioration of the situation after large-scale combat clashes resumed in June. They brought about a notable worsening of the humanitarian situation and heavily restricted the freedom of movement - to a big degree because of the imposition of tight security measures. The Office of the High Commissioner also called attention to a sharp shortage of finances for providing aid and assistance to the Ukrainians. Of the $ 40.5 million it has requested for the purpose, only $ 20.6 million has been provided to date. Russia is among the thirteen countries that has remitted money for assistance to Ukrainians fleeing their homes.

Ukrainian refugees are a daily fact of life for those living in Russia, and the refugees remind the Russians who shelled them. So again I ask, how can you not be a war hawk at this point? Furthermore, one of the unintended effects of the anti-Russian sanctions was that the ricochet hit Ukraine harder than Russia. One of the unintended effects of Merkel's stupidity of announcing the sanctions on the day of Operation Barbarossa, was that these sanctions were extended for a year, not six months. Ukraine's economy has been fucked up the ass ever since the fall of the USSR. Yanukovich became pro-Russian because otherwise, Ukraine's economy was going to collapse within two years. We're approaching that point. It makes no sense for Russia to escalate, when Russia can just wait for Ukraine's economy to self destruct, for Kiev's Oligarchs and Wrong Sector to wipe each other out fighting for scraps, (like Wrong Sector is doing with Hungary, a NATO member,) and walk into whatever parts of Ukraine Putin wants to annex, as there will be little to no opposition. Moldova is better off economically than Ukraine. Kosovo is better off economically than Ukraine. And as far as the votes go: "it's the economy, stupid!"

[Shofercia]

A Russian likes Russia, who would have thought?

Russophile usually pertains to something more than simply liking your country.

To elaborate if a Russophile is someone who simply likes russia, makarevich must be a russophobe.

Yes, it pertains to liking the Culture, the People, the Language, and the Country. It doesn't pertain to liking the government. Russians have been through a lot, the language is awesome, the culture rocks, and there's a bit of everything in Russia. Kind of hard not to like. Also, Makarevich is an idiot, and maybe, big maybe here, a Russophobe. He's definitely an idiot though.

[New Werpland]

Russophile usually pertains to something more than simply liking your country.

To elaborate if a Russophile is someone who simply likes russia, makarevich must be a russophobe.

Yes, it pertains to liking the Culture, the People, the Language, and the Country. It doesn't pertain to liking the government. Russians have been through a lot, the language is awesome, the culture rocks, and there's a bit of everything in Russia. Kind of hard not to like. Also, Makarevich is an idiot, and maybe, big maybe here, a Russophobe. He's definitely an idiot though.

Usually the term is used to refer to individuals like this.

That isn't the literal meaning of course, but it's the way (at least I perceive) people use it.

[Shofercia]

Yes, it pertains to liking the Culture, the People, the Language, and the Country. It doesn't pertain to liking the government. Russians have been through a lot, the language is awesome, the culture rocks, and there's a bit of everything in Russia. Kind of hard not to like. Also, Makarevich is an idiot, and maybe, big maybe here, a Russophobe. He's definitely an idiot though.

Usually people use the term to refer to people like this.

That isn't the literal meaning of course, but it's the way at least I perceive people use it.

Because Russophiles are like the Borg? What's next, all Islamophiles support ISIS? If that's how you perceive it, then... [fakedited out due to mods lurking]

Seriously though, that's a very stupid way to perceive it, and I doubt that Kurba was using it in that manner. I think it was more of a "we commies want a borderless society, so don't get too attached to any one country" kind of way, even though that's just not going to happen. But that's a debate I'd love to have with a commie, not someone who percieves the Russians as borg. And speaking of that post, it's misinformed, but it does raise some general grievances; it's not cookoo for cocoa puffs.

For instance: In the 90s after the collapse of USSR Russia was very weak, and most people lived in poverty because of the shock therapy.

I'm not sure if most people lived in poverty, but poverty was wide spread and shock therapy certainly contributed to increasing poverty. Not sure about the "cultural genocide", but the electoral hypocrisy was blatant. Some Westerners helped Yeltsin steal the election while talking about promoting Democracy in Russia. If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is!

Now we have Putin, a great leader who has vastly improved health and the economy. Most Russians live in nice apartments, and are able to afford their needed products.

That's also true. This part:

Many detractors blame putin for allowing monopolies and oligarchs when in reality he has fought them hard. Also hypocritical westerners claim he invaded sovereign nations for his greedy nationalistic fascist purposes, this is not true.

is sort of true. Putin made sure that the Oligarchs started paying actual taxes, and pretending that, prior to Ukraine, he was hawkish in terms on foreign policy, that's really dumb. Saakashvili attacked a Russian Peacekeeping Base, what did anyone else expect? Nor do I see what he could've done differently in Ukraine, considering the power dynamics in Russia. At the same time I'll admit that Allanea's criticism of that poster was spot on.

[NuvoRossiya]

Ukraine should let dombass become a state in Russia, then there economy would be better. If Ukraine as a whole wanted that, it would be better for everyone. This is classic Western Imperialism. And now the Ukrainians have to DEAL WITH NAZIS.


Werpland should start listening to the truth here, I agree with you.

[Vassenor]

Ukraine should let dombass become a state in Russia, then there economy would be better. If Ukraine as a whole wanted that, it would be better for everyone. This is classic Western Imperialism. And now the Ukrainians have to DEAL WITH NAZIS.


Werpland should start listening to the truth here, I agree with you.

Why should they do it, and why would it be better for everyone?

And it's quite interesting you say that, since last time I checked unlike the Crimean separatists the fighters in the Donbass region wanted autonomy, not annexation by Russia.

[New Werpland]

Ukraine should let dombass become a state in Russia, then there economy would be better. If Ukraine as a whole wanted that, it would be better for everyone. This is classic Western Imperialism. And now the Ukrainians have to DEAL WITH NAZIS.


Werpland should start listening to the truth here, I agree with you.

Why should they do it, and why would it be better for everyone?

And it's quite interesting you say that, since last time I checked unlike the Crimean separatists the fighters in the Donbass region wanted autonomy, not annexation by Russia.

That is strange, as we all know how autonomous Ossetia and Abkhazia are.

[Bratislavskaya]

Why should they do it, and why would it be better for everyone?

And it's quite interesting you say that, since last time I checked unlike the Crimean separatists the fighters in the Donbass region wanted autonomy, not annexation by Russia.

That is strange, as we all know how autonomous Ossetia and Abkhazia are.

Transnistria says hi.

[Geilinor]

So again I ask, how can you not be a war hawk at this point?

Going to war with Ukraine would cause more refugees, obviously.

[Vassenor]

That is strange, as we all know how autonomous Ossetia and Abkhazia are.

I'm not sure I understand the comparison you're trying to make. Could you elaborate please?

[Padnak]

That is strange, as we all know how autonomous Ossetia and Abkhazia are.

I'm not sure I understand the comparison you're trying to make. Could you elaborate please?

Both Ossetia and Abkhazia are essentially Russian puppet states

[Shofercia]

Ukraine should let dombass become a state in Russia, then there economy would be better. If Ukraine as a whole wanted that, it would be better for everyone. This is classic Western Imperialism. And now the Ukrainians have to DEAL WITH NAZIS.


Werpland should start listening to the truth here, I agree with you.

That's not up to Ukraine, or Russia. That's up to the people of the DonBass Region. They should be given options if they want to be with Ukraine, to be with Russia, or to be independent.

Why should they do it, and why would it be better for everyone?

And it's quite interesting you say that, since last time I checked unlike the Crimean separatists the fighters in the Donbass region wanted autonomy, not annexation by Russia.

That is strange, as we all know how autonomous Ossetia and Abkhazia are.

The pro-Russian candidate in Abkhazia lost, despite Kobzon's endorsement. Abkhazia also wanted to establish better relations with Turkey. Two things brought Abkhazia into Russia's prime sphere of influence: the fact that their tourism minister stole Rubles instead of spending them on tourism, and thus Russia had to bail out Abkhazia, and the fact that Turkey rejected repeated requests from the Abkhaz. Neither is Putin's fault.

Regarding South Ossetia, yes, they want to be with North Ossetia. This isn't news. Ossetians know they're the same people, and it's time for the rest of us to realize that Ossetians are Ossetians.

That is strange, as we all know how autonomous Ossetia and Abkhazia are.

Transnistria says hi.

Oh, privet!

So again I ask, how can you not be a war hawk at this point?

Going to war with Ukraine would cause more refugees, obviously.

Not really, since the Rebellion was internally sparked, going in to protect the locals causes less refugees, since the alternative would be ethnic cleansing, or the equivalent of Operation Storm; thus inaction would produce more refugees, not less.

That is strange, as we all know how autonomous Ossetia and Abkhazia are.

I'm not sure I understand the comparison you're trying to make. Could you elaborate please?

South Ossetia wants to be with North Ossetia, (after being attacked thrice by Georgia, 1992, 2004 and 2008,) and since North Ossetia is a de facto and de jure part of Russia, South Ossetia wants the same, under Vladikavkaz's jurisdiction. That's the capital of North Ossetia.

Abkhazia was attacked once, in 1993, won that war, the peace was rather tenuous, so Abkhazia opted for independence. But they need someone to support them, so they looked to Russia and Turkey. BTW, they didn't always support Russians over Wahhabi Radicals, unlike the Ossetians, and the pro-Russian candidate in Abkhazia lost. After the Ossetian War, Russian Dominance returned to the region, so the Abkhaz made one last play - they tried to establish relations with Turkey. After being rejected, and after being hit with a financial tornado thanks to internal corruption, they had no choice but to become more dependent on Russia, in exchange for a bailout. Once they pay it off and establish relations with Turkey, they can be less dependent on Russia, but with Erdogan, that just ain't happening.

I'm not sure I understand the comparison you're trying to make. Could you elaborate please?

Both Ossetia and Abkhazia are essentially Russian puppet states

See above.

[OccupiedOccitania]

http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=re ... 540&page=1

Here are the newest polls in Ukraine.

[Shofercia]

http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=540&page=1

Here are the newest polls in Ukraine.

They're going back to Timoshenko? She doubled in support and might win the plurality of the vote. Also:

23,9% - hard to choose
21,4% - chose not to vote, refusal, spoiled ballot, etc

14,6% would vote for Petro Poroshenko,
13,9% - for Julia Tymoshenko,
4,6% - for Oleg Lyashko,
4,6% - for Anatoly Gritsenko,
4,3% - for Andrew Sadovoy,
3,1% - for Dmitry Yarosh,
2,4% - for Yuri Boiko,
1,4% - for Olga Bogomolets,
1,3% - for Arseniy Yatsenyuk,
1,2% - for Oleg Tyagnibok,



And the winner is... Spoiled Ballot!!!

[Shofercia]

http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=540&page=1

Here are the newest polls in Ukraine.

Looking at the poll:

A plurality in the DPR and LPR want to recognize the independence of the DPR and the LPR: 36% for, 20% against. And they want to be joining the Customs Union: 58% for, 14% against. An independent DonBass in the Customs Union is what the people want. Most Ukrainians are pro-Russian language, suck on that nationalist idiots, and the NATO thing is very iffy, both numbers round up to 41%. The South and East don't trust anyone, but with the EU's economic shenanigans, that'll change. Interestingly enough the only group that's anti-Russian language, (by a majority, Center has a small plurality,) is the West, but they're a minority, thankfully. Fucking Stalin, had to annex that to Ukraine

Ukraine is still divided, but now we can guess how the Donetsk/Lugansk residents will vote in an actual Referendum. And with Ukraine's current economic situation being what it is, it's not hard to figure out they'll be followed by others. Thanks for posting that poll, I wonder what the accuracy data's on it.

[OccupiedOccitania]

They're going back to Timoshenko? She doubled in support and might win the plurality of the vote. Also:

On one hand that is not unusuall. It seems she remembers many Ukrainians on some better times. Something like nostalgia so they might consider giving them a chance.

The poll was made by the university and not some paid agencies and I think we can consider them as reliable. I am only wondering how did they manage to provide a poll in the Donbass.

Also, it seems the majority of Ukrainians do not trust Russia and that they want to end the conflict on a peacefull way.

[OccupiedOccitania]

http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=540&page=1

Here are the newest polls in Ukraine.

Looking at the poll:

A plurality in the DPR and LPR want to recognize the independence of the DPR and the LPR: 36% for, 20% against. And they want to be joining the Customs Union: 58% for, 14% against. An independent DonBass in the Customs Union is what the people want. Most Ukrainians are pro-Russian language, suck on that nationalist idiots, and the NATO thing is very iffy, both numbers round up to 41%.

You might also see the last table on the page. It seems the majority of the Donbass do not want to secede from Ukraine, which is surprisingly to me.

[Kubra]

I mean, it would be hefty, if it were a party that wasn't the KPRF. Zyuganov might not be a Putin fan, but he's a straight up warhawk for the Ukraine conflict and a russophile to boot.

A Russian likes Russia, who would have thought?

Indeed, who would have thought that the party that directly traces its lineage from one of the only principled parties from the period of the second international would regress into social-chauvinism, something its most important theorists made an explicit point of denouncing?

A Russian likes Russia, who would have thought?

Russophile usually pertains to something more than reasonable Russian nationalism.

To elaborate if a Russophile is someone who simply likes russia, makarevich must be a russophobe.

And Zyuganov is so nationalistic that it's almost physically nauseating. His conflation of sovietism with russianism is shockingly uncritical, the sort of politics that would have got one laughed out of central committee meeting when Communist Parties were still groups with actual principles.

Most commies are Russophiles, and there's nothing wrong with being a Russophile. Regarding being a warhawk for Ukraine, who isn't? It's impossible not to see the stream of refugees, https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/1 ... a-o01.html, into Russia. And these refugees aren't saying nice stuff about Poroshenko/Yatsenuyk. What would you do in his place? Furthermore, the issue with KPRF is the shadow casting over Zyuganov chickening out in the 1990s. He won the 1996 election, but chickened out after pressure, and so the results weren't properly reviewed, and Russia ended up being stuck with the Yeltsin disaster, until Clinton bombed Belgrade and the Russian Armed Forces couped Yeltsin, and... Pristina Airstrip, and all that stuff. But CPRF does quite a bit for the Russian working class.

Not even Lenin himself gave as many shits about Russia as the KPRF. The reason so many refugees are in Russian is because the location of the conflict is in areas with a higher concentration of ethnic russians. Consider the opposite scenario, a russian backed regime quelling nationalist uprisings in the west. Considering the political character of West Ukraine, would it be likely that these refugees would prefer to cross the frontline in order to reach russia, rather than fleeing backwards to Poland or Belarus? War of any political character destroys the life and livelihood of citizens caught in the crossfire, creates multitudes of refugees and dispossessed, but to say such is to really say nothing: it's something to be assumed of war, there's not need to explicitly mention it.
As such, what reaction am I supposed to have with you telling me that war is terrible in this way? Is this to imply that there are wars with redeeming characteristics, for which I ought to support over others? I mean, make no mistake, I do believe that, but I'm not sure our ideas of what these characteristics are match up.