NationStates

Imperializt Russia wrote:

Lydenburg wrote:
While that may very well ring true for Burundi or the Congo, it certainly wasn't the case with RSA. Or to a lesser extent Zimbabwe.

Start the country off with all the industrial and infrastructural advantages in the world but corruption can still get the better of it in the end.

Not all of them were, no. I was just quite stung by the "not our problem anymore" comment. We have a duty to fix what we royally fucked up.
Wasn't RSA one of the few countries to not undergo an industrial revolution because Britain simply imported industry to it?

Quite so. We had a "mineral" revolution instead, which resulted in the accelerated interest on Britain's part (and Anglophone capitalist interests in general) for industrial development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_Revolution

Grave_n_idle wrote:

Teemant wrote:
He claimed that most illegal immigrants in Europe tend to work and don't claim benefits. Why the heck am I supposed to proof that they don't?

Indeed. And yet you state it as a fact.

The inverse is quite easy to support - although it's not concrete. Illegal immigrants don't have access to any support network, so they either have to be accommodated by another person at THEIR own expense or they must be getting into work quickly.

The available evidence, therefore, suggests that most people coming into the country illegally probably ARE getting into work pretty much immediately.

It's almost impossible to work in Europe illegally.

NicolaSturgeon wrote:...in the name kf tradition... We need to keep our identity and stop the blacks and arabs overrunning our streets.

If Europe has one identity... it's mass movement of people.

In the name of tradition - we should be more welcoming of immigrants. Migration is our tradition.

The Derpy Dominion wrote:Kick out the foreigners, Europe is for Europeans.

I always have to imagine how disappointed the creators of the show would be when people with pony flags post hateful messages.

Teemant wrote:

Mister B wrote:
Most of the boat "immigrants" are nothing of the sort, they are refugees from warzones like Syria and Iraq or failed/failing states like Somalia and Eritrea. As refugees they will be prevented from working by their host country and receive paltry benefits until their status is resolved.

Those who are actual immigrants will attempt to find work immediately as this is almost always the entire reason they are migrating. If they are in the country illegally and are not refugees they cannot receive benefits.

Most illegal immigrants in Europe are these so called boat migrants. This isn't USA.

I didn't say they aren't, I'm simply pointing out that a larg proportion of people arriving in Europe by boat from places like Libya are not, in fact, illegal immigrants.

Teemant wrote:

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Indeed. And yet you state it as a fact.

The inverse is quite easy to support - although it's not concrete. Illegal immigrants don't have access to any support network, so they either have to be accommodated by another person at THEIR own expense or they must be getting into work quickly.

The available evidence, therefore, suggests that most people coming into the country illegally probably ARE getting into work pretty much immediately.

It's almost impossible to work in Europe illegally.

Ahahaha good one.

Teemant wrote:

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Indeed. And yet you state it as a fact.

The inverse is quite easy to support - although it's not concrete. Illegal immigrants don't have access to any support network, so they either have to be accommodated by another person at THEIR own expense or they must be getting into work quickly.

The available evidence, therefore, suggests that most people coming into the country illegally probably ARE getting into work pretty much immediately.

It's almost impossible to work in Europe illegally.

It's easy to migrate legally, and so people generally do. That doesn't mean it's impossible for illegals to get work - they're just doing it - obviously - off the books. (When I was younger, this was usually in construction and loading/unloading trucks. I couldn't tell you what it is today).

Teemant wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:Not all of them were, no. I was just quite stung by the "not our problem anymore" comment. We have a duty to fix what we royally fucked up.
Wasn't RSA one of the few countries to not undergo an industrial revolution because Britain simply imported industry to it?

How can Europe fix it? Do you have any plans because sending aid hasn't worked and certainly hasn't helped African countries to develop into more advanced economies and societies.

Insist on transparency and control where the bloody aid is going.

Contrary to whatever cliches you may believe about Effrika, some of that aid actually gets where it's supposed to. The EU fund which established running water and other utilities for the first time in Alexandra is a prime example of this.

Threlizdun wrote:

The Derpy Dominion wrote:Kick out the foreigners, Europe is for Europeans.

I always have to imagine how disappointed the creators of the show would be when people with pony flags post hateful messages.

Lauren Faust genuinely dislikes bronies, unsurprisingly.

Teemant wrote:

Sorgan wrote:Oh no it's definitely still Europe's fault - just because time has passed doesn't mean its not Europe's fault anymore. There are other contributing factors of course but the enslavement, mass murder, and exploitation of the natives definitely has a big part in why things are the way they are.

I've always thought the idea of treating people differently because they were born on the other side of an imaginary line was kind of dumb. I agree with what Lydenburg said, if they can make ends meet hats off to them indeed.

Slavery was abolished long time ago but right now it is 21st century.
What mass murded? And we definitely can't make the case that there aren't enough people in Africa currently if that's what you want to say by that.

The after effects of slavery are still very much alive and present around us, it's not too hard to see that. The mass murder of African natives perpetuated by European colonizers? It wasn't exactly a great time under European rule. The Congo Free State in particular comes to mind.

Teemant wrote:
It's almost impossible to work in Europe illegally.

No it's not, have you never heard of the cash economy?

Lydenburg wrote:

Teemant wrote:
How can Europe fix it? Do you have any plans because sending aid hasn't worked and certainly hasn't helped African countries to develop into more advanced economies and societies.

Insist on transparency and control where the bloody aid is going.

Contrary to whatever cliches you may believe about Effrika, some of that aid actually gets where it's supposed to. The EU fund which established running water and other utilities for the first time in Alexandra is a prime example of this.

To fulfill your first point Europe needs to intervene militarily in African countries and I don't think this will happen.

It happened.
In Libya it failed because we didn't put troops on the ground. In Mali it didn't, because the French did put troops on the ground.

Imperializt Russia wrote:It happened.
In Libya it failed because we didn't put troops on the ground. In Mali it didn't, because the French did put troops on the ground.

So to solve the problem Europe must conquer Africa again...

Teemant wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:Not all of them were, no. I was just quite stung by the "not our problem anymore" comment. We have a duty to fix what we royally fucked up.
Wasn't RSA one of the few countries to not undergo an industrial revolution because Britain simply imported industry to it?

How can Europe fix it? Do you have any plans because sending aid hasn't worked and certainly hasn't helped African countries to develop into more advanced economies and societies.

Let's see how Africa is doing now that it has more control over its own destiny, and what it's been doing with a lot of the aid

Angola GDP per capita Algeria GDP per capita Rwanda GDP per capita Equatorial Guinea GDP per capita Gabon GDP per capita Republic of the Congo GDP per capita Nigeria GDP per capita Ghana GDP per capita Tanzania GDP per capita Zambia GDP per capita Lesotho GDP per capita Swaziland GDP per capita Togo GDP per capita Senegal GDP per capita Benin GDP per capita Botswana GDP per capita Namibia GDP per capita South Africa GDP per capita Guinea Bissau GDP per capita Burkina Faso GDP per capita Eritrea GDP per capita Ethiopia GDP per capita Mali GDP per capita Mauritania GDP per capita Chad GDP per capita

http://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/201 ... -brief.pdf
Over a quarter of Somalis in urban areas use the Internet, and over a sixth of those in rural areas do as well. Over 70% of Somalis own cellphones.

http://ndn.org/sites/default/files/u780 ... nGraph.jpg
Phone ownership rates are rapidly rising.



let's also look at literacy
Eritrea
Mali
South Africa
DRC

Let's also not overlook the strides that Africa is making when it comes to solar power.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2 ... revolution
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-31503424
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Africa

"But hey!" you may say. "That's just because Africa is getting lots of money from selling resources! That'll go away when commodity prices begin to fall again, like they are right now!"

but omg, the economies of african countries are DIVERSIFYING AND DOING PRETTY WELL DESPITE WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON RECENTLY

Let's also remember that the examples I'm linking to aren't necessarily merely examples of what's going on in the countries whose stats are used, but rather they are representative of what's going on in the continent as a whole.

Arumdaum wrote:

Teemant wrote:
How can Europe fix it? Do you have any plans because sending aid hasn't worked and certainly hasn't helped African countries to develop into more advanced economies and societies.

Let's see how Africa is doing now that it has more control over its own destiny, and what it's been doing with a lot of the aid

Angola GDP per capita Algeria GDP per capita Rwanda GDP per capita Equatorial Guinea GDP per capita Gabon GDP per capita Republic of the Congo GDP per capita Nigeria GDP per capita Ghana GDP per capita Tanzania GDP per capita Zambia GDP per capita Lesotho GDP per capita Swaziland GDP per capita Togo GDP per capita Senegal GDP per capita Benin GDP per capita Botswana GDP per capita Namibia GDP per capita South Africa GDP per capita Guinea Bissau GDP per capita Burkina Faso GDP per capita Eritrea GDP per capita Ethiopia GDP per capita Mali GDP per capita Mauritania GDP per capita Chad GDP per capita

http://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/201 ... -brief.pdf
Over a quarter of Somalis in urban areas use the Internet, and over a sixth of those in rural areas do as well. Over 70% of Somalis own cellphones.

http://ndn.org/sites/default/files/u780 ... nGraph.jpg
Phone ownership rates are rapidly rising.

let's also look at literacy
Eritrea
Mali
South Africa
DRC

Let's also not overlook the strides that Africa is making when it comes to solar power.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2 ... revolution
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-31503424
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Africa

"But hey!" you may say. "That's just because Africa is getting lots of money from selling resources! That'll go away when commodity prices begin to fall again, like they are right now!"

but omg, the economies of african countries are DIVERSIFYING AND DOING PRETTY WELL DESPITE WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON RECENTLY

Let's also remember that the examples I'm linking to aren't necessarily merely examples of what's going on in the countries whose stats are used, but rather they are representative of what's going on in the continent as a whole.

Your point?

NicolaSturgeon wrote:With the upcoming EU Referendum in 2017, Immigration is one of the main points in the debate. In Britain alone, 30% of the population are ethnic minorities, mostly from the Carribean, China, India or Pakistan. Keep in mind if you're reading this I'm not a racist or anti-foreigner.

I think there is far too many immigrants. I live in a small town with little over 45,000 people in it, and at least 10,000 are foreigners who weren't born in this country or UK as a whole. I don't have a problem with them as people, and most of them do yes help the country, but when it comes to national identity I do think they're a threat.

If you live in Europe or a country with a large immigrant population, do you think they're problematic? Do you live in a country where people emigrate to Europe a lot, do you think it's a problem?

In 2002 I took a studentship at a Scottish university. My family comes from Poland, and, just about wherever I went, people were really curious about my look, my parents, and my ability to speak English. Up north in some villages the moment I told them my parents were Polish a loud chorus of, 'Oh, do you know Jan Szczreminski? He was a pilot in WWII', 'Oh, you should visit the Saint Barbara Polish Catholic Church, such delightful people are there,' and 'Oh, do you know Jacek Kubiak Michalowski? He was an RAF pilot, such a delightful fellow. His children live nearby. What chaps they are.'

There was this intense cool factor about being Polish in Scotland. I left before 2004. Then, things changed.

Haha, my mates tell me that in 2004 about nine trillion Poles moved to Scotland. The mood changed, Poles went from being cool to being fuck*ng Polocks! Oh, god damn Poles! Fuck*ng Poles! Jesus F Christ so many Poles! LOLOLOLOL

Shows what happens when immigration reaches a critical threshold and there becomes just too many immigrants in one area, haha.

Teemant wrote:

Lydenburg wrote:
Insist on transparency and control where the bloody aid is going.

Contrary to whatever cliches you may believe about Effrika, some of that aid actually gets where it's supposed to. The EU fund which established running water and other utilities for the first time in Alexandra is a prime example of this.

To fulfill your first point Europe needs to intervene militarily in African countries and I don't think this will happen.

Nonsense.

In 2000, shortly after the UK cut the funding to Zim's land reform programme Robert Mugabe held a conference of other potential donor states willing to take over the reins, including Japan and Sweden. These governments offered to finance the purchase of white-owned farms for redistribution under the condition that their representatives be permitted to sit on a board which reviewed how each amount allocated to various aspects of the programme was being spent. The representatives didn't control funding, the Zim government would. But they would get a long, hard, look at where each cent was going - plus it would be all be documented on paper.

Mugabe threw a fit. Why? Because the only reason he wanted them to contribute to the fund in the first place was to line his own pockets. The new donor countries were rudely shown the door and the proposed board was binned.

Force the corrupt African autocrats like Mugabe to accept aid on your terms, or don't give them aid at all. They'll still find loopholes to skim but now at least there won't be billions for the water or plumbing budget disappearing into Swiss bank accounts.

Arumdaum wrote:

Teemant wrote:
How can Europe fix it? Do you have any plans because sending aid hasn't worked and certainly hasn't helped African countries to develop into more advanced economies and societies.

Let's see how Africa is doing now that it has more control over its own destiny, and what it's been doing with a lot of the aid

Angola GDP per capita Algeria GDP per capita Rwanda GDP per capita Equatorial Guinea GDP per capita Gabon GDP per capita Republic of the Congo GDP per capita Nigeria GDP per capita Ghana GDP per capita Tanzania GDP per capita Zambia GDP per capita Lesotho GDP per capita Swaziland GDP per capita Togo GDP per capita Senegal GDP per capita Benin GDP per capita Botswana GDP per capita Namibia GDP per capita South Africa GDP per capita Guinea Bissau GDP per capita Burkina Faso GDP per capita Eritrea GDP per capita Ethiopia GDP per capita Mali GDP per capita Mauritania GDP per capita Chad GDP per capita

http://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/201 ... -brief.pdf
Over a quarter of Somalis in urban areas use the Internet, and over a sixth of those in rural areas do as well. Over 70% of Somalis own cellphones.

http://ndn.org/sites/default/files/u780 ... nGraph.jpg
Phone ownership rates are rapidly rising.

let's also look at literacy
Eritrea
Mali
South Africa
DRC

Let's also not overlook the strides that Africa is making when it comes to solar power.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2 ... revolution
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-31503424
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Africa

"But hey!" you may say. "That's just because Africa is getting lots of money from selling resources! That'll go away when commodity prices begin to fall again, like they are right now!"

but omg, the economies of african countries are DIVERSIFYING AND DOING PRETTY WELL DESPITE WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON RECENTLY

Let's also remember that the examples I'm linking to aren't necessarily merely examples of what's going on in the countries whose stats are used, but rather they are representative of what's going on in the continent as a whole.

Wow! A cellphone.

It would be very desperate indeed if the still wouldn't be able to use cellphones.

I don't get what you tried to show with the GDP links because they just lead me to google search.

I am sure the Celts thought the same thing.

Lydenburg wrote:

Teemant wrote:
To fulfill your first point Europe needs to intervene militarily in African countries and I don't think this will happen.

Nonsense.

In 2000, shortly after the UK cut the funding to Zim's land reform programme Robert Mugabe held a conference of other potential donor states willing to take over the reins, including Japan and Sweden. These governments offered to finance the purchase of white-owned farms for redistribution under the condition that their representatives be permitted to sit on a board which reviewed how each amount allocated to various aspects of the programme was being spent. The representatives didn't control funding, the Zim government would. But they would get a long, hard, look at where each cent was going - plus it would be all be documented on paper.

Mugabe threw a fit. Why? Because the only reason he wanted them to contribute to the fund in the first place was to line his own pockets. The new donor countries were rudely shown the door and the proposed board was binned.

Force the corrupt African autocrats like Mugabe to accept aid on your terms, or don't give them aid at all. They'll still find loopholes to skim but now at least there won't be billions for the water or plumbing budget disappearing into Swiss bank accounts.

Dictators would rather refuse the aid than leave power. And how is this going to help Africa to move forward?

NicolaSturgeon wrote:With the upcoming EU Referendum in 2017, Immigration is one of the main points in the debate. In Britain alone, 30% of the population are ethnic minorities, mostly from the Carribean, China, India or Pakistan.

I don't think that's quite the case. I mean, Birmingham - Birmingham - isn't 'majority-minority' yet.

Angleter wrote:I don't think that's quite the case. I mean, Birmingham - Birmingham - isn't 'majority-minority' yet.

Nope. IIRC there aren't any cities in the UK where whites are a minority?

Arumdaum wrote:Let's see how Africa is doing now that it has more control over its own destiny, and what it's been doing with a lot of the aid

http://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/201 ... -brief.pdf
Over a quarter of Somalis in urban areas use the Internet, and over a sixth of those in rural areas do as well. Over 70% of Somalis own cellphones.[/url]

Let's also remember that the examples I'm linking to aren't necessarily merely examples of what's going on in the countries whose stats are used, but rather they are representative of what's going on in the continent as a whole.

@Arum while you make some very good points the thing with the Somalis wasn't exactly the best example you could've used. The United Nations and other NGOs built the same tech infrastructure that gave Somalia something like the second highest cell phone and internet use in Africa back in the early 2000s for their own pampered staff. Many Westerners working with these organisations were posted there for the long run between 1991 and about 2005 and wanted to bring their luxuries with them.

Hence why the cellular data network is so disproportionately developed there compared to the rest of the continent. Nothing to do with Africans empowering themselves.

I do agree it's done a world of good for the average Somali though.

Teemant wrote:

Arumdaum wrote:Let's see how Africa is doing now that it has more control over its own destiny, and what it's been doing with a lot of the aid

Angola GDP per capita Algeria GDP per capita Rwanda GDP per capita Equatorial Guinea GDP per capita Gabon GDP per capita Republic of the Congo GDP per capita Nigeria GDP per capita Ghana GDP per capita Tanzania GDP per capita Zambia GDP per capita Lesotho GDP per capita Swaziland GDP per capita Togo GDP per capita Senegal GDP per capita Benin GDP per capita Botswana GDP per capita Namibia GDP per capita South Africa GDP per capita Guinea Bissau GDP per capita Burkina Faso GDP per capita Eritrea GDP per capita Ethiopia GDP per capita Mali GDP per capita Mauritania GDP per capita Chad GDP per capita

http://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/201 ... -brief.pdf
Over a quarter of Somalis in urban areas use the Internet, and over a sixth of those in rural areas do as well. Over 70% of Somalis own cellphones.

http://ndn.org/sites/default/files/u780 ... nGraph.jpg
Phone ownership rates are rapidly rising.

(Image)

let's also look at literacy
Eritrea
Mali
South Africa
DRC

Let's also not overlook the strides that Africa is making when it comes to solar power.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2 ... revolution
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-31503424
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Africa

"But hey!" you may say. "That's just because Africa is getting lots of money from selling resources! That'll go away when commodity prices begin to fall again, like they are right now!"

but omg, the economies of african countries are DIVERSIFYING AND DOING PRETTY WELL DESPITE WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON RECENTLY

Let's also remember that the examples I'm linking to aren't necessarily merely examples of what's going on in the countries whose stats are used, but rather they are representative of what's going on in the continent as a whole.

Wow! A cellphone.

It would be very desperate indeed if the still wouldn't be able to use cellphones.

I don't get what you tried to show with the GDP links because they just lead me to google search.

Wow! Someone who thinks rapidly increasing literacy rates, phone ownership rates, rises in Internet access, economic diversification, and rapid wealth accumulation (though much of it uneven) mean absolutely nothing!

Because all of this was clearly just so common in the 1960s and 70s.

The GDP per capita links link to charts, if you bothered to look at them.

From what I've seen the numbers aren't as high as they're made out to be. The media, at least over here, is doing a terrible job at showing why parties like the PVV are lying (or, if not [which I sincerely doubt], woefully uninformed) when they say the immigrants are streaming into Europe; and of course all those immigrants do is lying on their lazy backs and demanding we pay them. Actually, the PVV story is that the PvdA (our Labour Party) intentionally welcomed immigrants into the country to ensure it receives more votes (because these lazy bums will obviously only vote on the Labour Party, because they give them free money). This is sincerely believed by at least part of the PVV voters.

In any case, I'm pretty sure we still have space for more immigrants. I don't really find it problematic to have more foreigners moving here (though, I'd appreciate it if they learned the language, and I'm quite sure that's happening, too). I'm not sure how effective development help is (or however "ontwikkelingshulp" is supposed to be translated; I've never really read about it and its effects), but I do think that's preferable to emigration (being more constructive).