He Was 19 (Vietnam War Discussion Thread)

[The New Sea Territory]

The USA didn't almost win the Vietnam War. Ever.

Uh, no. Multiple times we came close, and it's very telling the NVA waited until the US was in political turmoil to make their big push without fear of US airpower.

You are continuing to make stuff up.

Now, please define "winning" before saying we could have actually won the war. The war had no direct stated goal, so "winning" is subjective, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan nowadays.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

You clearly missed the context of that post, which was that I made the point we could've won the war and achieved our objective if we had done another Linebacker on the NVA in '75.

Not in 1975. The South Vietnamese didn't have the oil to support their war machine and the North Vietnamese were well-funded and ready to take Saigon, which they did in April. The Viet Cong established their Provisional Revolutionary Government and American personnel and some South Vietnamese were evacuated. By the beginning of 1975, the result of the war was apparent.

So who funded and oiled the Vietnamese "war-machine" when they clobbered the Khmer Rouge and PLA in 1979?
-Well, aside from Sweden.

The answer was USSR, which when it fell and became somewhat warmer to the international community, Vietnam followed suite around 1987 when it drafted Resolution No. 2.

By 1988, America and Vietnam were BFFs again. Because money and food talk louder than bullets.

[Oil exporting People]

then what was i tu quoqueing at?

The bit about the Philippines should be self-explantory.

notice how you will completely fail to actually find a relevant statement.

How can I fail to do something I've yet to attempt? Also, another fallacy made.

actually, it does. "but he was doing it before he went to moscow" is a perfectly valid response to "but he was doing it after he went to moscow". i'm sorry if you don't understand that the struggle of vietnam and ho chi ming was a very very long one?

The gist of your argument is that the US is at fault for not re-starting the Great War over Vietnam in 1919, and is almost "Hen or the egg" in its structure.

[Oil exporting People]

You are continuing to make stuff up.

Then prove it.

Now, please define "winning" before saying we could have actually won the war.

I already have stated it twice, it's not my fault you did not review the prior posts. One more for your convenience, the US objective was to maintain South Vietnam and as an objective was completely possible to achieve.

The war had no direct stated goal, so "winning" is subjective, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan nowadays.

Actually it did as any history of the war will state, nor is winning subjective as it is quite starkly clear in what unfolded historical.

[Souseiseki]

then what was i tu quoqueing at?

The bit about the Philippines should be self-explantory.

notice how you will completely fail to actually find a relevant statement.

How can I fail to do something I've yet to attempt? Also, another fallacy made.

actually, it does. "but he was doing it before he went to moscow" is a perfectly valid response to "but he was doing it after he went to moscow". i'm sorry if you don't understand that the struggle of vietnam and ho chi ming was a very very long one?

The gist of your argument is that the US at fault for not re-starting the Great War over Vietnam in 1919, and is almost "Hen or the egg" in its structure.

self-explanatory how? bringing up the united states colonial legacy in relation to how it interacted with another colony is not tu quoque. that would require you talking about russias colonial legacy and me going "ha but what about the pillipines". one of us is fundamentally misunderstanding the phrase and at the risk of sounding biased it's you.

it's a hypothetical, because you will fail. go on. try. (did you know: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy)

*shrug* maybe the US shouldn't write cheques its mouth can't sign. it also doesn't change the fact that one of the main reasons ho went communist was because the united states turned their backs on him.

[Anshaskia]

The South Vietnamese didn't have the oil to support their war machine

You're going to need to cite that claim, as I've never read anything supporting it.

South Vietnam was hit hard by the 1973 oil crisis and it, like many other countries, were thrown into a recession because of it. These increased oil prices and the declining economy resulted in the South being unable to support their army, which was much larger than the North's at this time.

Here's one source other than Wikipedia. I can find more if you'd like.

South Vietnam was an artificially urbanized society whose only economic basis was American aid. The value of that aid declined when the oil price increases that began with the war in the Middle East in 1973 caused a rampant inflation, at which point the motorized army and society the Americans had created became an onerous liability.

and the North Vietnamese were well-funded and ready to take Saigon, which they did in April.

I could have you well funded as much as you want, but that doesn't mean you can go conquer some random nation. And yes, as history turned out, they took Saigon. However, the details of how that was achieved is important to note. The US was in political turmoil after Watergate, and thus lacked the political will to launch another Linebacker offensive. If, say, Watergate had been avoided, Nixon would've been able to launch another aerial offensive against the NVA.

Are we forgetting the rest of Campaign 275? The campaign overall was a decisive North Vietnamese victory against South Vietnamese forces. The NVA didn't just jump from the North-South border to Saigon. 1975 was disastrous for South Vietnam and so was the end of 1974. No amount of airstrikes would of prevented the North from winning at that point. We were neck-deep in shit and there was no way out of it short of nuking the North and occupied South, but that would cause all other kinds of problems. Bigger problems.

If Watergate never happened, support for the South Vietnamese government wouldn't of been cut as it was. This much is true. This would of merely prolonged the war, not provide a means to end it with a South Vietnamese victory.

The Viet Cong established their Provisional Revolutionary Government and American personnel and some South Vietnamese were evacuated. By the beginning of 1975, the result of the war was apparent.

VC were a dead letter by then, and the rest has no bearing at all in what I've outlined. Most US personnel were out in '73, and they still forced the North to the accords.

This is untrue. The Viet Cong were involved in the final offensive against South Vietnam, often acting as auxiliary forces for the North Vietnamese Army. They even participated in the Fall of Saigon. The Viet Cong most defiantly took a hit, a big hit at that, but they weren't put out of action and it was the Viet Cong who played a major role in the establishment of the Provisional Government of South Vietnam prior to the nation's reunification.

Not in 1975. The South Vietnamese didn't have the oil to support their war machine and the North Vietnamese were well-funded and ready to take Saigon, which they did in April. The Viet Cong established their Provisional Revolutionary Government and American personnel and some South Vietnamese were evacuated. By the beginning of 1975, the result of the war was apparent.

So who funded and oiled the Vietnamese "war-machine" when they clobbered the Khmer Rouge and PLA in 1979?

The Soviet Union supported them, it was the Chinese that were fighting on the side of Democratic Kampuchea after all. Sino-Soviet split and all that jazz. And it's not like Vietnam's military just collapsed or something after the country's reunification, the NVA were still a capable fighting force. There were also factions within Cambodia fighting on the side of Vietnam.

If my opinion matters, which it does not, it is my belief that China was justified in attacking Vietnam after Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia. That being said, I support the invasion as Pol Pot was a big poopy head.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

You are continuing to make stuff up.

Then prove it.

why does no one fucking understand or acknowledge the burden of proof

[The New Sea Territory]

Then prove it.

The Vietnamese didn't like the Republic of Vietnam, or the US. Defeating the NVA or VC temporarily defends South Vietnam, but the North would have come back.

So, by stating that "the war could have been won", you are rejecting the fact that, as time went by, nobody, including the Vietnamese people and the American soldiers, wanted to keep fighting.

I already have stated it twice, it's not my fault you did not review the prior posts. One more for your convenience, the US objective was to maintain South Vietnam and as an objective was completely possible to achieve.

It was feasible from a purely material perspective, but there is no way that the Vietnamese would have dealt with a de facto US military occupation for the years and years that the war would have dragged on. Had the US stayed longer, South Vietnamese would likely have been more sympathetic to the North, simply due to their anti-American sentiments that came from their distrust for an American backed dictator who ruled the Republic of Vietnam.

Which, if the goal is to maintain South Vietnam, then driving people into the ideological hands of the enemy is not a good way to win. So, America could have maintained the status quo in Vietnam for years, but would have undoubtedly lost in the end.

Actually it did as any history of the war will state, nor is winning subjective as it is quite starkly clear in what unfolded historical.

...no, it had no stated objective besides vague "contain communism" propaganda, which fearmongered about Vietnam's "fall to the Reds" leading to a proletarian revolution in Nebraska.

Secondly, winning is most definitely subjective. For example, the Korean War was never "won", but one could say the US "won" in Korea having the country split, and South Korea becoming economically prosperous, and "free" (despite being under a military dictatorship until the late 80s). One could also say that World War I was not really a "victory", but more of an outright exhaustion of both sides.

[Imperial City-States]

People say we lost the Vietnam war.


Tell that to the McDonald's in Ho Chi Minh City.

[Anshaskia]

People say we lost the Vietnam war.


Tell that to the McDonald's in Ho Chi Minh City.

Just what this country needed.

Edit: I said sarcastically.

[The Sotoan Union]

People say we lost the Vietnam war.


Tell that to the McDonald's in Ho Chi Minh City.

If anything that's just a plus for Vietnam.

[Yuketobaniac]

Discuss exactly what about it?

he said about the fudging vietnam war

[Greenland-Myanmar]

I think the U.S. lost, just they won't admit it.
And wow, this thread exploded.

[The Sotoan Union]

I think the U.S. lost, just they won't admit it.
And wow, this thread exploded.

I was under the impression that it was known the US lost. But some people can get offended at the idea that they lost a war. Just look at debates about the War of 1812.

[Anshaskia]

I think the U.S. lost, just they won't admit it.
And wow, this thread exploded.

I was under the impression that it was known the US lost. But some people can get offended at the idea that they lost a war. Just look at debates about the War of 1812.

We lost the War of 1812?

[The Sotoan Union]

I was under the impression that it was known the US lost. But some people can get offended at the idea that they lost a war. Just look at debates about the War of 1812.

We lost the War of 1812?

Some people would argue yes.

I am under the impression that it was a draw.

[Mollary]

Overall, I'm glad Wilson kept the UK out of it, and it was really a waste of the US's time. Especially considering if they'd waited a bit, then Capitalism would have come to Vietnam as it has now. I mean, you can get McDonalds in several places in Ho Chi Minh City. Wonder what he'd think of that tbh.

[Anshaskia]

We lost the War of 1812?

Some people would argue yes.

I am under the impression that it was a draw.

I too was under this impression.

Overall, I'm glad Wilson kept the UK out of it, and it was really a waste of the US's time. Especially considering if they'd waited a bit, then Capitalism would have come to Vietnam as it has now. I mean, you can get McDonalds in several places in Ho Chi Minh City. Wonder what he'd think of that tbh.

And I hope it fucking stays in Ho Chi Minh City. We can't allow that shit to spread.

[MERIZoC]

Discuss exactly what about it?

he said about the fudging vietnam war

A vague "discuss a war from 50+ years ago" isn't a very good topic to work with.

[Mollary]

Some people would argue yes.

I am under the impression that it was a draw.

I too was under this impression.

Overall, I'm glad Wilson kept the UK out of it, and it was really a waste of the US's time. Especially considering if they'd waited a bit, then Capitalism would have come to Vietnam as it has now. I mean, you can get McDonalds in several places in Ho Chi Minh City. Wonder what he'd think of that tbh.

And I hope it fucking stays in Ho Chi Minh City. We can't allow that shit to spread.

I get the feeling I saw one in the jungle when I was there too . But yeah, what I really didn't get what its popularity with European and North American tourists, they've come to the other side of the world, and they're eating the same crap they can get at home?

[Anshaskia]

I too was under this impression.


And I hope it fucking stays in Ho Chi Minh City. We can't allow that shit to spread.

I get the feeling I saw one in the jungle when I was there too . But yeah, what I really didn't get what its popularity with European and North American tourists, they've come to the other side of the world, and they're eating the same crap they can get at home?

I'm sure it's not for the tourists, rather for the native population and perhaps expats who live there. There are better options than McDonald's though, at least if they're anything like the McDonald's in the US.

[Mollary]

I get the feeling I saw one in the jungle when I was there too . But yeah, what I really didn't get what its popularity with European and North American tourists, they've come to the other side of the world, and they're eating the same crap they can get at home?

I'm sure it's not for the tourists, rather for the native population and perhaps expats who live there. There are better options than McDonald's though, at least if they're anything like the McDonald's in the US.

I know, but it was flooded with tourists ;p. Indeed there are, although nowhere else where you can be fully sure that the ice is ok to have.

[Greenland-Myanmar]

Overall, I'm glad Wilson kept the UK out of it, and it was really a waste of the US's time. Especially considering if they'd waited a bit, then Capitalism would have come to Vietnam as it has now. I mean, you can get McDonalds in several places in Ho Chi Minh City. Wonder what he'd think of that tbh.

Saigon....

[Anshaskia]

I'm sure it's not for the tourists, rather for the native population and perhaps expats who live there. There are better options than McDonald's though, at least if they're anything like the McDonald's in the US.

I know, but it was flooded with tourists ;p. Indeed there are, although nowhere else where you can be fully sure that the ice is ok to have.

What do you mean the ice isn't okay to have?

Overall, I'm glad Wilson kept the UK out of it, and it was really a waste of the US's time. Especially considering if they'd waited a bit, then Capitalism would have come to Vietnam as it has now. I mean, you can get McDonalds in several places in Ho Chi Minh City. Wonder what he'd think of that tbh.

Saigon....

No, Ho Chi Minh City.

[Greenland-Myanmar]

I know, but it was flooded with tourists ;p. Indeed there are, although nowhere else where you can be fully sure that the ice is ok to have.

What do you mean the ice isn't okay to have?

Saigon....

No, Ho Chi Minh City.

It was called Saigon.