NationStates

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 8:59 am**

I tend to agree with gender roles and the traditional expectations of a man. However, as a transsexual woman who passes for female 24/7, I feel that men should adhere to gender roles when it comes to how they treat ALL women not just most. Machismo, however, is taking things too far and can end in abuse or worse. That being said, I don't have any ill will towards those who do not adhere to gender roles because, despite my adhering to the gender roles and traditional expectations of my target gender, some people might say that I don't adhere to gender roles. I don't think it's that important, it's just my preference.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 9:03 am**

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 9:20 am**

Kelinfort wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
The same has been my experience, both sides of the Atlantic - so it seems unlikely.

I suspect Ostroeuropa is simply wrong on this one.

Yeah, he is. In my experience, women have and do slut shame, but nowhere near the extent men do when women are not around.

No, they definitely do it when women are around or at least in earshot. If you spend a reasonable amount of time in the sort of places that are heavily populated by college or university students, you get to overhear a lot of dudes engaging in this behaviour.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 9:26 am**

Dakini wrote:
Kelinfort wrote:Yeah, he is. In my experience, women have and do slut shame, but nowhere near the extent men do when women are not around.

No, they definitely do it when women are around or at least in earshot. If you spend a reasonable amount of time in the sort of places that are heavily populated by college or university students, you get to overhear a lot of dudes engaging in this behaviour.

Oh definitely they do that and it's terrible, but I think it's worse when guys are alone.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 10:22 am**

I like to see traditions subverted. Progress is supposed to cause discomfort, it's for all our good in the end though.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 11:15 am**

Replevion wrote:
Bottle wrote:A mix, if memory serves. I know there was at least one teenage boy who (bless his heart) looked away very quickly.

Interesting that you say "slut shaming" is primarily done by women, though, as my experience has been the opposite. Perhaps there are cultural or regional differences...?

While my first hand experience is still limited having only been able to express my womanhood for the last year or so, both that and my proxy experience have lead me to think similarly that it's mainly women who slut-shame. And it makes sense, a fair amount of guys would rather leer at whomever they perceive as slutty, but most women are going to perceive them as sexual threats and/or reminders of their own self-constraint which may or may not be wholly voluntary (social pressure) and that engenders bitterness etc. and all that is magnified by age and generational cultural/norms.

I have to agree with you, at least that's my experience too: there are guys who slut-shame, but they're not just only less than women who slut-shame, but there's even a qualitative difference: women who slut-shame are far more poisonous, and I think the reason of this difference is exactly about perceiving other women as sexual threats - I mean: both men and women perform slut shaming due societal pressure, but women perform even more and more harsh slut shaming because in our case another factor is added: perceiving other women as sexual threat.
There's even, though it's not very common, slut-shaming against bisexual women within lesbians, at least in my country: the word they use can be translated in "bi-slut".

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 11:19 am**

Chessmistress wrote:
Replevion wrote:
While my first hand experience is still limited having only been able to express my womanhood for the last year or so, both that and my proxy experience have lead me to think similarly that it's mainly women who slut-shame. And it makes sense, a fair amount of guys would rather leer at whomever they perceive as slutty, but most women are going to perceive them as sexual threats and/or reminders of their own self-constraint which may or may not be wholly voluntary (social pressure) and that engenders bitterness etc. and all that is magnified by age and generational cultural/norms.

I have to agree with you, at least that's my experience too: there are guys who slut-shame, but they're not just only less than women who slut-shame, but there's even a qualitative difference: women who slut-shame are far more poisonous, and I think the reason of this difference is exactly about perceiving other women as sexual threats - I mean: both men and women perform slut shaming due societal pressure, but women perform even more and more harsh slut shaming because in our case another factor is added: perceiving other women as sexual threat.
There's even, though it's not very common, slut-shaming against bisexual women within lesbians, at least in my country: the word they use can be translated in "bi-slut".

I'm a man-bi-slut!

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 11:22 am**

Page wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:
I have to agree with you, at least that's my experience too: there are guys who slut-shame, but they're not just only less than women who slut-shame, but there's even a qualitative difference: women who slut-shame are far more poisonous, and I think the reason of this difference is exactly about perceiving other women as sexual threats - I mean: both men and women perform slut shaming due societal pressure, but women perform even more and more harsh slut shaming because in our case another factor is added: perceiving other women as sexual threat.
There's even, though it's not very common, slut-shaming against bisexual women within lesbians, at least in my country: the word they use can be translated in "bi-slut".

I'm a man-bi-slut!

Hello

I'm a woman bi-slut!

Seriously, maybe for a man it's funny, but it's not so funny for a woman.
Even my actual partner once called me so

, even if she was just joking

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 11:24 am**

Page wrote:I like to see traditions subverted. Progress is supposed to cause discomfort, it's for all our good in the end though.

I eat ice cream with a fork.

You're welcome, world.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 11:49 am**

Bottle wrote:
Page wrote:I like to see traditions subverted. Progress is supposed to cause discomfort, it's for all our good in the end though.

I eat ice cream with a fork.

You're welcome, world.

Doesn't that take a long tine?

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 11:51 am**

Bottle wrote:I eat ice cream with a fork.

You're welcome, world.

Thank you for doing your part.

*pins a metal to your chest. When you look down, it turns out to be a metal fork.*

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 11:58 am**

So long as it isn't malicious in intent, I think people ought to just be people, and allow others the same freedom. We shouldn't be getting our collective knickers in a twist if someone smiles at us. Or opens a door for us. Or allows us to go first at a stop sign. Or any number of little niceties that can be easily done for or by any gender, for any reason. I have seen stories proudly and loudly proclaimed by various persons about how they 'showed that so and so' by meeting one of these minor, inoffensive acts with vitriol and nastiness - just to prove that bah Gid, they don't need on goram anything from any of those $fill_in_the_blank_unpleasant_title.

There is too much division in all these little titles, and labels and special interests. I've been maintaining that for some time now. I honestly think we ought to get down to seeing what is best, and basically good for PEOPLE. And treat one another, regardless of all the little differences, with the same level of consideration, fairness, and respect. We wouldn't need all these 'this rights' and 'that rights' if everyone were treated well. It'd be obvious if someone weren't, and it could be dealt with on that individual basis.

Granted, it's a nice pipe dream, considering the current stances on it all, but hey. One can always hope.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 12:03 pm**

Dakini wrote:Fuck traditional gender roles.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 12:05 pm**

Chessmistress wrote:
Page wrote:
I'm a man-bi-slut!

Hello
I'm a woman bi-slut!

Seriously, maybe for a man it's funny, but it's not so funny for a woman.
Even my actual partner once called me so , even if she was just joking

It makes me sick. I've heard of people blaming a woman for being raped because she was bisexual.

I personally don't want to think that rape culture and rape apologists are real and common in the West, and then shit like this happens and I'm just like, stop proving me wrong!! {weep}*

And it doesn't help that there's just no getting away from it. Like you say there's a lot of prejudice even in the lesbian and gay community, this "gold star" bullshit like somebody who touches the opposite sex must be forever tainted. One of my friends has told me a lot of horror stories about dating lesbians I won't go into, but for my part I really only date bi or pan women. Anything else seems to be... emotionally risky. Riskier.

And I'm proud to be a slut. I don't see it as pejorative, rather it's a sign that somebody isn't going to let social pressure dictate how they fulfill themselves. If I find some mutual attraction it's my social life to navigate, and I don't lead anybody on. I tell everybody I'm involved with from the beginning: I'm my own person, I'm not going to be limited and told whom I can see or when, and I won't limit anybody else. I expect to be minimally informed of additional sexual partners as I inform them. Level of detail is optional. Everybody agrees and we're good. And I have a pretty sweet sex life as a result, which has only been getting better. So yeah, I'm a slut. What of it?

*(Wholly aside, I've told my spouse I think my hormones are turning me into a feminist. Part of me is like noooooo I'm egalitarian! Remember all your mother's warnings about feminism! Remember what assholes TERFs are! Noooooooo and yet I end up defending feminist ideas a lot. Often when I don't even want to, if that makes any sense.)

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 12:05 pm**

Page wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:
I have to agree with you, at least that's my experience too: there are guys who slut-shame, but they're not just only less than women who slut-shame, but there's even a qualitative difference: women who slut-shame are far more poisonous, and I think the reason of this difference is exactly about perceiving other women as sexual threats - I mean: both men and women perform slut shaming due societal pressure, but women perform even more and more harsh slut shaming because in our case another factor is added: perceiving other women as sexual threat.
There's even, though it's not very common, slut-shaming against bisexual women within lesbians, at least in my country: the word they use can be translated in "bi-slut".

I'm a man-bi-slut!

So what would i be then? A genderfluid-bi-slut? Doesn't roll off the tongue like the others i feel like...

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 12:08 pm**

See, I personally as a guy, feel i want to be the protective parent, the shield of my family. But as for women, I took cooking classes in school, and ive grown up with my mom's homeday care in my house, as well as a huge family, so im used to taking care of kids, and want to cook for my family. For me, a couple is a team, your supposed to help each other. I come from a long line of men, going back to my great grandfathers even, who helped in the kitchen, who helped with the kids. Because making 1 person do a chore alone isn't much of a family. Anything my wife does, i want to help her, and she is welcome to help me with whatever. a couple when married, become "of the same flesh" that means working together. ultimately, its about choice. if my wife wants to work, i will support her. if she wants to stay at home, i wont complain either. I'm wholly against the idea of making the woman stay home, and abandon her dream job. That's just cruel.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 12:32 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Imperium Sidhicum wrote:Men are hard-wired to be the protectors and caretakers of their families.

Not really, though.

If that's true wouldn't it make more sense for the Father to stay home and take care of the children then? The biggest problem with gender roles is that, when people objectify them, they become largely incomprehensible to people. They are stereotypical generalizations that try to dictate what a male ought to do and what a female ought to do. These are ultimately socially created ideas that are passed down through the generations. The roles themselves are completely arbitrary and change depending on the times. Men used to wear high heels and lace and all that while women weren't even allowed to be cheerleaders until the 1920's-1930's. We decide what Men and Women can/cannot do. But when we say "Men should be like this because this is the way a man should be" then we have a problem. Just like when we generalize any group of people.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 12:41 pm**

Fartsniffage wrote:
Bottle wrote:I eat ice cream with a fork.

You're welcome, world.

Doesn't that take a long tine?

That pun is intentional and entirely called for.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 12:41 pm**

New Babylonia wrote:
Dakini wrote:Fuck traditional gender roles.

Non-traditional gender roles need fucking, too.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 12:43 pm**

Bottle wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Doesn't that take a long tine?

That pun is intentional and entirely called for.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 12:46 pm**

Bottle wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Doesn't that take a long tine?

That pun is intentional and entirely called for.

There's one thing I've learnt today.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 1:44 pm**

Replevion wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:
Hello
I'm a woman bi-slut!

Seriously, maybe for a man it's funny, but it's not so funny for a woman.
Even my actual partner once called me so , even if she was just joking

It makes me sick. I've heard of people blaming a woman for being raped because she was bisexual.

I personally don't want to think that rape culture and rape apologists are real and common in the West, and then shit like this happens and I'm just like, stop proving me wrong!! {weep}*

And it doesn't help that there's just no getting away from it. Like you say there's a lot of prejudice even in the lesbian and gay community, this "gold star" bullshit like somebody who touches the opposite sex must be forever tainted. One of my friends has told me a lot of horror stories about dating lesbians I won't go into, but for my part I really only date bi or pan women. Anything else seems to be... emotionally risky. Riskier.

And I'm proud to be a slut. I don't see it as pejorative, rather it's a sign that somebody isn't going to let social pressure dictate how they fulfill themselves. If I find some mutual attraction it's my social life to navigate, and I don't lead anybody on. I tell everybody I'm involved with from the beginning: I'm my own person, I'm not going to be limited and told whom I can see or when, and I won't limit anybody else. I expect to be minimally informed of additional sexual partners as I inform them. Level of detail is optional. Everybody agrees and we're good. And I have a pretty sweet sex life as a result, which has only been getting better. So yeah, I'm a slut. What of it?

*(Wholly aside, I've told my spouse I think my hormones are turning me into a feminist. Part of me is like noooooo I'm egalitarian! Remember all your mother's warnings about feminism! Remember what assholes TERFs are! Noooooooo and yet I end up defending feminist ideas a lot. Often when I don't even want to, if that makes any sense.)

"A lot of horror stories" is really exaggerated, but let's say every rose has its thorns...http://www.afterellen.com/books/412271- ... stic-abuse
and that bullshit like somebody who touches the opposite sex must be forever tainted is actually not common, but, still, it happens.
What's wrong about TERFs? TERFs are not about hating transexuals, it's about assuming they cannot fully share our experiences (and note, I'm not comparing transexuals to males).

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 1:54 pm**

Zetnoxyzeus wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Not really, though.

If that's true wouldn't it make more sense for the Father to stay home and take care of the children then?

Indeed, it happens: men socially enforced to stay at home and take care of childrens, just because they are supposed to be "hard-wired to be strong, protectors and caretakers of their families" and also "unable to properly perform a job". I'm not kidding:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haenyeo

It could also be said that women simply were more adapted for the job, with their bodies keeping them warmer and being more suited to swimming than a male, with more body fat. With that, they often became "the head" of their family. On Mara Island, where sea products accounted for almost all sources of revenue before it became increasingly attractive as a tourist site, gender roles were entirely reversed. Often men would look after the children and go shopping while the women would bring in money for the family.

Jeju island and Mara island, South Korea.

There's no feminism at all...but nor even MRA

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 2:09 pm**

Chessmistress wrote:
Replevion wrote:
It makes me sick. I've heard of people blaming a woman for being raped because she was bisexual.

I personally don't want to think that rape culture and rape apologists are real and common in the West, and then shit like this happens and I'm just like, stop proving me wrong!! {weep}*

And it doesn't help that there's just no getting away from it. Like you say there's a lot of prejudice even in the lesbian and gay community, this "gold star" bullshit like somebody who touches the opposite sex must be forever tainted. One of my friends has told me a lot of horror stories about dating lesbians I won't go into, but for my part I really only date bi or pan women. Anything else seems to be... emotionally risky. Riskier.

And I'm proud to be a slut. I don't see it as pejorative, rather it's a sign that somebody isn't going to let social pressure dictate how they fulfill themselves. If I find some mutual attraction it's my social life to navigate, and I don't lead anybody on. I tell everybody I'm involved with from the beginning: I'm my own person, I'm not going to be limited and told whom I can see or when, and I won't limit anybody else. I expect to be minimally informed of additional sexual partners as I inform them. Level of detail is optional. Everybody agrees and we're good. And I have a pretty sweet sex life as a result, which has only been getting better. So yeah, I'm a slut. What of it?

*(Wholly aside, I've told my spouse I think my hormones are turning me into a feminist. Part of me is like noooooo I'm egalitarian! Remember all your mother's warnings about feminism! Remember what assholes TERFs are! Noooooooo and yet I end up defending feminist ideas a lot. Often when I don't even want to, if that makes any sense.)

"A lot of horror stories" is really exaggerated, but let's say every rose has its thorns...http://www.afterellen.com/books/412271- ... stic-abuse
and that bullshit like somebody who touches the opposite sex must be forever tainted is actually not common, but, still, it happens.
What's wrong about TERFs? TERFs are not about hating transexuals, it's about assuming they cannot fully share our experiences (and note, I'm not comparing transexuals to males).

What's wrong with TERFs is my validity as a woman is not up for debate, dissection, and arbitrary dismissal. I will not accept second class status, which, I hasten to add, is quite an ironic thing for a power structure made up of cis women to demand of trans women. It's like a sick parody of how the patriarchy has historically tried to force women to accept second class status. Sorry, "almost equal" isn't enough between women and men, and it's not enough between cis and trans women either.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2015 2:12 pm**

Mostrov wrote:I'm not particularly interested in non-traditional gender roles because of my complete lack of comprehension of social dissent in this regard or indeed the concept of self-expression. Insomuch that there was no question of me getting married and having children (much less sexuality or gender), as much as a matter of too whom.

Why do you feel you have no choice in this matter?

Chessmistress wrote:
Replevion wrote:
It makes me sick. I've heard of people blaming a woman for being raped because she was bisexual.

I personally don't want to think that rape culture and rape apologists are real and common in the West, and then shit like this happens and I'm just like, stop proving me wrong!! {weep}*

And it doesn't help that there's just no getting away from it. Like you say there's a lot of prejudice even in the lesbian and gay community, this "gold star" bullshit like somebody who touches the opposite sex must be forever tainted. One of my friends has told me a lot of horror stories about dating lesbians I won't go into, but for my part I really only date bi or pan women. Anything else seems to be... emotionally risky. Riskier.

And I'm proud to be a slut. I don't see it as pejorative, rather it's a sign that somebody isn't going to let social pressure dictate how they fulfill themselves. If I find some mutual attraction it's my social life to navigate, and I don't lead anybody on. I tell everybody I'm involved with from the beginning: I'm my own person, I'm not going to be limited and told whom I can see or when, and I won't limit anybody else. I expect to be minimally informed of additional sexual partners as I inform them. Level of detail is optional. Everybody agrees and we're good. And I have a pretty sweet sex life as a result, which has only been getting better. So yeah, I'm a slut. What of it?

*(Wholly aside, I've told my spouse I think my hormones are turning me into a feminist. Part of me is like noooooo I'm egalitarian! Remember all your mother's warnings about feminism! Remember what assholes TERFs are! Noooooooo and yet I end up defending feminist ideas a lot. Often when I don't even want to, if that makes any sense.)

"A lot of horror stories" is really exaggerated, but let's say every rose has its thorns...http://www.afterellen.com/books/412271- ... stic-abuse
and that bullshit like somebody who touches the opposite sex must be forever tainted is actually not common, but, still, it happens.
What's wrong about TERFs? TERFs are not about hating transexuals, it's about assuming they cannot fully share our experiences (and note, I'm not comparing transexuals to males).

That attitude of assuming there is a universal female experience and that transwomen can't experience it is the problem. Every woman has a different experience based on the circumstances they find themselves in. Women in general can expect more oppression than men, but how they experience it is unique. Trans women may expect more oppression than cis women, but how each individual experiences it is still unique. Trans-exclusive "radical feminists" are neither radical not feminists. There is nothing radical about excluding trans people, and there is nothing feminist about refusing to assist in ending the oppression of women. Cissexism, sexism, racism, ableism, classism, and heterosexism are all factors working to cement oppression, and all must be combated if one truly wishes to stand for female empowerment. Liberating only a small subset of women is entirely different than standing for the liberation of women in general.

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Traditional gender roles