Europe's Problem With Islam

[MERIZoC]

So, there's been a lot of talk in the news lately about Islam in Europe. How Muslims bring terrorism, crime, poverty, etc. They can't be trusted, they're stealing our jobs, you name it. While there's heated debate on this, one thing's for sure—Europe has a problem. That's right, they've got too many damn Islamophobes. People like Geert Wilders, who've said that the Koran is a "fascist book", equivalent to Mein Kampf, and has advocated for a Hijab tax. And yes, this is a man people actually elected. In a real legislative party. Of course, the Netherlands isn't the only country that these radical extremists have affected. We're seeing the poisonous influence of Islamophobia in France, Denmark, Sweden, and more. The rhetoric these parties espouse could be compared to a so-called Religion of Hate. Violence against Muslims in Europe is on the rise, and has grown particularly bad since the 2015 Charlie Hebdo shooting.

So it's clear that we've got a problem here. In my view, Islamophobia is incompatible with European values. Now, let me be clear, I don't hate Islamophobes, I hate Islamophobia. I don't believe there's any such thing as "moderate Islamophobia", even though the majority of Islamophobes aren't violent. There need to be brave souls willing to speak up in the name of free speech, despite an atmosphere of intolerance, against this hatred.

But what do you think we should do? Is this even a problem? Should we work to stop Islamophobic immigration? How can we tackle this?

[Protonovaria]

The Islamophobia that's gripping Europe is definitely a problem and Geert Wilders and other radicals leaders like him are only adding fuel to the fire. The problem is these radical leaders continuously espouse this Islamophobic tripe, explaining how the 'collapse' of Europe is being caused by Muslim immigrants, yet very few moderates seem to denounce them. If centrist and non-radical party leaders spoke out against Islamophobia as often as the radicals cry about how Islam is destroying Europe, I'm sure we'd see a rise in tolerance throughout the population.

[Glorious KASSRD]

The main arguments they have seem to be
1. Muslims are more likely to do crimes/hate/whatever else is bad.
2. Islam is replacing European culture.
Ignoring the second for the moment, does anyone have actual sources proving or disproving the first?

[Arkolon]

I think it's a very thin-ice topic for a lot of Europeans since the line between anti-multiculturalism and racism is very fine, but it's impossible to say that Islam and Islamism is not a problem in European society. Many Europeans have by-and-large accepted that the 'multicultural experiment' has failed, and that we cannot say that cultures existing side by side has worked towards more prosperity. It gave us more racism and more natural segregation. Immigrant minority ghettos reminiscent of early XX^e America are now more common in Europe. But don't get me wrong, I like immigration and I in fact welcome the boat people's asylum stay across the EU. I am not a cultural traditionalist or preservationist. I am just of the opinion that if we are to have many cultures in a single area, everyone should make the collective effort to integrate-- not to impose values, but to accept at least the most ultimate values of the host country.

[Conserative Morality]

I think Islamophobia is entirely in-line with European values. The question is whether or not they can leave those values behind.

Also, I despise Islamophobia and Islamophobes on a case-by-case basis.

[Herrebrugh]

So, there's been a lot of talk in the news lately about Islam in Europe. How Muslims bring terrorism, crime, poverty, etc. They can't be trusted, they're stealing our jobs, you name it. While there's heated debate on this, one thing's for sure—Europe has a problem. That's right, they've got too many damn Islamophobes. People like Geert Wilders, who've said that the Koran is a "fascist book", equivalent to Mein Kampf, and has advocated for a Hijab tax. And yes, this is a man people actually elected. In a real legislative party. Of course, the Netherlands isn't the only country that these radical extremists have affected. We're seeing the poisonous influence of Islamophobia in France, Denmark, Sweden, and more. The rhetoric these parties espouse could be compared to a so-called Religion of Hate. Violence against Muslims in Europe is on the rise, and has grown particularly bad since the 2015 Charlie Hebdo shooting.

So it's clear that we've got a problem here. In my view, Islamophobia is incompatible with European values. Now, let me be clear, I don't hate Islamophobes, I hate Islamophobia. I don't believe there's any such thing as "moderate Islamophobia", even though the majority of Islamophobes aren't violent. There need to be brave souls willing to speak up in the name of free speech, despite an atmosphere of intolerance, against this hatred.

But what do you think we should do? Is this even a problem? Should we work to stop Islamophobic immigration? How can we tackle this?

Not a Hijab tax, he specifically called it a "kopvoddentaks", or "head-rag tax" (though, that's basically what he was referring to... My mistake).

Anyway, yeah, we should take away islamophobes' passports and send them to some other country. I don't know. Russia?

Also, a wall should be erected around (Netherlands) Limburg.

[The Archregimancy]

The main arguments they have seem to be
1. Muslims are more likely to do crimes/hate/whatever else is bad.
2. Islam is replacing European culture.
Ignoring the second for the moment, does anyone have actual sources proving or disproving the first?

Actually, I'm going to focus on the second.

Islam has been continuously part of European culture since Tariq Ibn Ziyad crossed the strait of Gibraltar in 711 AD.

While the Reconquista was completed in 1492, the Ottomans had already crossed the Hellespont in 1354 - going on to control a significant portion of the Balkans at their 16th-century apogee.

The modern Turkish republic of course continues to control a portion of the European continent, and there are significant European Muslim populations in - among other European nations - Bosnia, Albania, and Bulgaria.

So, by my count, Islam has had a significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe for just over 1300 years.

[Ereria]

Islamophobes make it seem like Europe is in the brink of a civil war between muslims and europeans, but no one really gives a fuck when you walk in middle of a huge crowd in the city. I think people are trying to live on with their lives and racists are just trying to divide the people.

[Herrebrugh]

Islamophobes make it seem like Europe is in the brink of a civil war between muslims and europeans, but no one really gives a fuck when you walk in middle of a huge crowd in the city. I think people are trying to live on with their lives and racists are just trying to divide the people.

Right. The people on a particular Netherlands site I visit constantly recognise everything as a sign that some sort of anti-islamic (muslamic?) revolution is about to take place. It will most certainly do within the next five years... After which it will most certainly do within the next five years.

[Arkolon]

The main arguments they have seem to be
1. Muslims are more likely to do crimes/hate/whatever else is bad.
2. Islam is replacing European culture.
Ignoring the second for the moment, does anyone have actual sources proving or disproving the first?

Actually, I'm going to focus on the second.

Islam has been continuously part of European culture since Tariq Ibn Ziyad crossed the strait of Gibraltar in 711 AD.

While the Reconquista was completed in 1492, the Ottomans had already crossed the Hellespont in 1354 - going on to control a significant portion of the Balkans at their 16th-century apogee.

The modern Turkish republic of course continues to control a portion of the European continent, and there are significant European Muslim populations in - among other European nations - Bosnia, Albania, and Bulgaria.

So, by my count, Islam has had a significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe for just over 1300 years.

I think the focus here is anyway on Western and Northern Europe, specifically the countries affected by rampant Islamophobia such as France, the Netherlands, the UK, and Scandinavia as well as their 'Western Values'.

[Imperium Sidhicum]

The problem with tolerance is that it is a two-way street - it only works if the other side agrees to follow the same rules and be tolerant as well. Unfortunately, just because many Europeans are open-minded, tolerant and willing to accept strangers and their ways does not mean these strangers necessarily share those sentiments.

From the looks of it, most folks who come here from the Third World have no intentions of integrating or adopting European way of life, they merely want to continue with their old ways while enjoying the European living standards.

Islam in particular is an ideology that fundamentally contradicts secular European values on a number of points, and is, unlike secular ideologies, explicitly engineered to be resistant to change. It also quite explicitly rejects tolerance and declares the imposition of Islam as the only way of life as it's long-term ideological imperative. While secular European values tend to exalt plurality and diversity, encouraging individualism and deciding one's own path in life, Islam rejects all that in favour of social and ideological unity, conformity to community standards and religious doctrine.

Hence I think Europeans are very right to be concerned about the Islamization of Europe.

[Herrebrugh]

The problem with tolerance is that it is a two-way street - it only works if the other side agrees to follow the same rules and be tolerant as well. Unfortunately, just because many Europeans are open-minded, tolerant and willing to accept strangers and their ways does not mean these strangers necessarily share those sentiments.

From the looks of it, most folks who come here from the Third World have no intentions of integrating or adopting European way of life, they merely want to continue with their old ways while enjoying the European living standards.

Islam in particular is an ideology that fundamentally contradicts secular European values on a number of points, and is, unlike secular ideologies, explicitly engineered to be resistant to change. It also quite explicitly rejects tolerance and declares the imposition of Islam as the only way of life as it's long-term ideological imperative. While secular European values tend to exalt plurality and diversity, encouraging individualism and deciding one's own path in life, Islam rejects all that in favour of social and ideological unity, conformity to community standards and religious doctrine.

Hence I think Europeans are very right to be concerned about the Islamization of Europe.

"From the looks of it" isn't going to cut it. Just about any Muslim I've had the privilege of looking at was a functioning part of Netherlands society. They just about all speak the language, go to school and/or work. None of them tried to convert me to Islam. They even eat raw herring and drive bikes... How integrated do they have to be?

[New Finnish Republic]

Honestly in my opinion the fault lies within the incoming Islamic immigrants. Although a good number are, there are still a lot that refuse to assimilate into the country's culture, which increases the tension and distrust between the the Europeans and incoming immigrants.

[Teemant]

Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion.

Want to limit the number of islamophobes and far right parties in Europe? Cut the immigration from muslim countries.

[Teemant]

The main arguments they have seem to be
1. Muslims are more likely to do crimes/hate/whatever else is bad.
2. Islam is replacing European culture.
Ignoring the second for the moment, does anyone have actual sources proving or disproving the first?

Actually, I'm going to focus on the second.

Islam has been continuously part of European culture since Tariq Ibn Ziyad crossed the strait of Gibraltar in 711 AD.

While the Reconquista was completed in 1492, the Ottomans had already crossed the Hellespont in 1354 - going on to control a significant portion of the Balkans at their 16th-century apogee.

The modern Turkish republic of course continues to control a portion of the European continent, and there are significant European Muslim populations in - among other European nations - Bosnia, Albania, and Bulgaria.

So, by my count, Islam has had a significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe for just over 1300 years.

You're really stretching (or how to say it) the map right now I'd say. Islam hasn't been significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe (especially Western, Central and Eastern Europe).

[The Archregimancy]

Actually, I'm going to focus on the second.

Islam has been continuously part of European culture since Tariq Ibn Ziyad crossed the strait of Gibraltar in 711 AD.

While the Reconquista was completed in 1492, the Ottomans had already crossed the Hellespont in 1354 - going on to control a significant portion of the Balkans at their 16th-century apogee.

The modern Turkish republic of course continues to control a portion of the European continent, and there are significant European Muslim populations in - among other European nations - Bosnia, Albania, and Bulgaria.

So, by my count, Islam has had a significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe for just over 1300 years.

You're really stretching (or how to say it) the map right now I'd say. Islam hasn't been significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe (especially Western, Central and Eastern Europe).

Are the Iberian Peninsula and the Balkans in Europe, or are they not in Europe?

And as to having no presence in Central and Eastern Europe....

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Honestly in my opinion the fault lies within the incoming Islamic immigrants. Although a good number are, there are still a lot that refuse to assimilate into the country's culture, which increases the tension and distrust between the the Europeans and incoming immigrants.

How far exactly do they need to integrate?

Actually, I'm going to focus on the second.

Islam has been continuously part of European culture since Tariq Ibn Ziyad crossed the strait of Gibraltar in 711 AD.

While the Reconquista was completed in 1492, the Ottomans had already crossed the Hellespont in 1354 - going on to control a significant portion of the Balkans at their 16th-century apogee.

The modern Turkish republic of course continues to control a portion of the European continent, and there are significant European Muslim populations in - among other European nations - Bosnia, Albania, and Bulgaria.

So, by my count, Islam has had a significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe for just over 1300 years.

You're really stretching (or how to say it) the map right now I'd say. Islam hasn't been significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe (especially Western, Central and Eastern Europe).

Bosnia? Albania? Moorish Spain? These are all in Europe and have/did have large populations of Muslims. Not to mention the centuries where the Ottomans owned the Balkans. Islam has indeed been significant in the east and western parts.

[The Archregimancy]

So, by my count, Islam has had a significant demographic and cultural presence in Europe for just over 1300 years.

I think the focus here is anyway on Western and Northern Europe, specifically the countries affected by rampant Islamophobia such as France, the Netherlands, the UK, and Scandinavia as well as their 'Western Values'.

So by 'Western Values', we actually mean France, the Netherlands, the UK, and Scandinavia - and just cheerfully write the rest of Europe out of our shared European civilisation because it doesn't fit the thread premise?

[Herrebrugh]

Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion.

Want to limit the number of islamophobes and far right parties in Europe? Cut the immigration from muslim countries.

There are actually lots of Muslims leaving Netherland. At least in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2012 there were more Muslims leaving the country than moving to it... So... Why isn't the PV"V" dead yet?

[New Werpland]

Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion.

Want to limit the number of islamophobes and far right parties in Europe? Cut the immigration from muslim countries.

Banning the quran isn't radical.

[The Archregimancy]

Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion.

Want to limit the number of islamophobes and far right parties in Europe? Cut the immigration from muslim countries.

I've just spent the last two years living in Dubai before returning to the UK.

Western European immigrants outnumber native Muslims by some 2:1 across the UAE as a whole.

Including all UAE population groups, there is a higher percentage of Christians in the UAE than there are Muslims in the UK.

Funny how we never seem to be as concerned about our own emigrants going to Muslim countries, though.

[Arkolon]

I think the focus here is anyway on Western and Northern Europe, specifically the countries affected by rampant Islamophobia such as France, the Netherlands, the UK, and Scandinavia as well as their 'Western Values'.

So by 'Western Values', we actually mean France, the Netherlands, the UK, and Scandinavia - and just cheerfully write the rest of Europe out of our shared European civilisation because it doesn't fit the thread premise?

Yeah. The thread may be in reference to Europe, but geographic Europe has a very rich Muslim history and populations, as you noted. Islamophobia is irrelevant on such a grand scale. This thread is more about how certain Islamophobes in certain, more specific countries treat Islam, despite the misnamed title.

[Souseiseki]

Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion.

Want to limit the number of islamophobes and far right parties in Europe? Cut the immigration from muslim countries.

I've just spent the last two years living in Dubai before returning to the UK.

Western European immigrants outnumber native Muslims by some 2:1 across the UAE as a whole.

Including all UAE population groups, there is a higher percentage of Christians in the UAE than there are Muslims in the UK.

Funny how we never seem to be as concerned about our own emigrants going to Muslim countries, though.

pfft, it's only a matter of time until UAEKIP get in

[The Huskar Social Union]

Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion.

Want to limit the number of islamophobes and far right parties in Europe? Cut the immigration from muslim countries.

I've just spent the last two years living in Dubai before returning to the UK.

Western European immigrants outnumber native Muslims by some 2:1 across the UAE as a whole.

Including all UAE population groups, there is a higher percentage of Christians in the UAE than there are Muslims in the UK.

Funny how we never seem to be as concerned about our own emigrants going to Muslim countries, though.

Yeah... its pretty odd isnt it.

[Herrebrugh]

Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion.

Want to limit the number of islamophobes and far right parties in Europe? Cut the immigration from muslim countries.

Banning the quran isn't radical.

I have to say I love that the Party for "Freedom" supports banning a book...