The seal of the confessional

[Angleter]

So it is better to let a murderer kill again than for you to just tell someone? The Church doesn't think enabling murderers is a sin?

I believe(I've never done it, but I have heard it, mostly from a couple of theology teachers) the common practice for dealing with confessions of serious crimes is that the penance given will be to confess to the authorities. If they don't, they don't get absolution.

Absolution, as far as I'm aware, is not reliant on doing the penance.

[Willamette Valley]

Priests shouldn't have anymore rights than a therapist does

[Lleu llaw Gyffes]

The big abuse is rape of children. We need a statute than when rapists confess and the priest don't tell the police, then the priest goes to jail for aiding and abetting, accessory after the facts. If a priest tells and the bishop sacks him, the bishop goes to jail.

Freedom of Worship is excellent, but we don't use it to permit Human Sacrifice, neither should it be applied to encourage rape

That's illegal, as it violates the free exercise of religion.

Are you saying that Freedom of Worship includes the Right to rape children?

You are correct. It IS illegal. A priest who whistle-blows about rapists has no protection under the current Law. That is why I proposed a new Statute. Current law punishes whistle-blowing priests. I want a NEW law to protect whistle-blowing priests.

[Diopolis]

That's illegal, as it violates the free exercise of religion.

Are you saying that Freedom of Worship includes the Right to rape children?

You are correct. It IS illegal. A priest who whistle-blows about rapists has no protection under the current Law. That is why I proposed a new Statute. Current law punishes whistle-blowing priests. I want a NEW law to protect whistle-blowing priests.

You're aware that a priest breaking the seal of the confessional can expect laicizing and excommunication, and if it were the high-profile case you're outlining, it would be done by the pope, not the bishop? Plus the fact that you're also looking at only a matter of time before a priest dies in prison from refusing to break the seal and then gets sainted?

[Neutraligon]

It should be subject to the same rules as attorney-client privilege.
I.E, if someone goes to confess a past crime, they may hold the seal.
If they indicate an intention to commit a future crime, the priest/lawyer is duty bound to report it.

Further, if a lawyer goes to another lawyer and indicates they are abusing their status as a lawyer to commit a crime (Blackmailing their clients, for instance.) that lawyer is duty bound to report it to the bar association.
Similarly, if a priest reports to a priest that they are fucking the altar boys, that priest should be duty bound to report it.

I think this should be enshrined in law. If the church refuses to comply, those who refuse to comply should be arrested or fined.
In cases of priests reporting to other priests, arguments could be made that the church is a criminal organization if it is their doctrine to refuse to report, allowing it to be outlawed.

This, so much this.

[Mysterious Stranger]

If you make priests mandated reporters like that, you'll ensure that, on the same day, everyone stops confessing their crimes to priests. And we lose one of the only forces in our entire society capable of pulling some people back from committing future crimes. I know I used to cut myself for years, and because mandated reporter laws meant that I would literally be arrested, forced to go to a mental hospital, or forced to take psychoactive drugs against my will, (all of which have happened to my friends), if I told my guidance counselor, any of my teachers, a therapist, or pretty much any trustworthy adult or authority figure about it, I just didn't talk to anybody who might have actually been helpful during that whole time period. You know who I did talk to? Lots of people on omegle. Because they couldn't track me down and literally ruin my life. People on omegle didn't have a lot of helpful things to say. I stitched my own leg closed once rather than go to the hospital. That shit hurts. I also could easily have died, because I don't know what the fuck I'm doing when it comes to stitching flesh.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Are you saying that Freedom of Worship includes the Right to rape children?

You are correct. It IS illegal. A priest who whistle-blows about rapists has no protection under the current Law. That is why I proposed a new Statute. Current law punishes whistle-blowing priests. I want a NEW law to protect whistle-blowing priests.

Current law is neutral. The law you propose would amount to the government telling people who their religious leaders must be, and who religious organizations must support.

That is a dangerous road to start down.

[Wulfenia]

Allowing those who are a danger to others to continue performing dangerous acts rather than trying to stop them when you have the capacity to do so is dispicable. If priests are concerned about their souls for breaking confession, perhaps they should be concerns for their souls when they allow murderers, rapists, and child molesters to go unstopped. If you must be damned, choose damnation that saves the lives of others. If your god cannot understand that, he is not a god worth worshipping.

Well, assuming someone confesses to a priest, chances are that they're feeling burdened. If the penitent lacks real remorse, that is grounds for the priest to refuse absolution to him/her. Assuming the hypothetical criminal repeats their crimes, it's a good indication they're not truly remorseful, and the priest merely need to deny their absolution.

I was under the impression that confession was anonymous.

[Diopolis]

Allowing those who are a danger to others to continue performing dangerous acts rather than trying to stop them when you have the capacity to do so is dispicable. If priests are concerned about their souls for breaking confession, perhaps they should be concerns for their souls when they allow murderers, rapists, and child molesters to go unstopped. If you must be damned, choose damnation that saves the lives of others. If your god cannot understand that, he is not a god worth worshipping.

Well, assuming someone confesses to a priest, chances are that they're feeling burdened. If the penitent lacks real remorse, that is grounds for the priest to refuse absolution to him/her. Assuming the hypothetical criminal repeats their crimes, it's a good indication they're not truly remorseful, and the priest merely need to deny their absolution.

I was under the impression that confession was anonymous.

It is.

[Themiclesia]

Allowing those who are a danger to others to continue performing dangerous acts rather than trying to stop them when you have the capacity to do so is dispicable. If priests are concerned about their souls for breaking confession, perhaps they should be concerns for their souls when they allow murderers, rapists, and child molesters to go unstopped. If you must be damned, choose damnation that saves the lives of others. If your god cannot understand that, he is not a god worth worshipping.

Well, assuming someone confesses to a priest, chances are that they're feeling burdened. If the penitent lacks real remorse, that is grounds for the priest to refuse absolution to him/her. Assuming the hypothetical criminal repeats their crimes, it's a good indication they're not truly remorseful, and the priest merely need to deny their absolution.

Then what if the confessing person is truly remorseful this time? Isn't he denied the absolution that he should receive? My first instinct is that the person will simply go to confess to a different priest every single time, so that he may not be recognized, even by voice, so as to maintain the secrecy of his past. Besides, what is forgiven is forgiven forever; it cannot be used against that person at another date.

[BK117B2]

In the U.S., the government lacks any authority to force the breaking of the seal. That's a good thing, as wronging someone in the pursuit of justice is still wrong.

[Dyakovo]

In the U.S., the government lacks any authority to force the breaking of the seal.

Arguably untrue. It is not in society's interest to respect harmful traditions simply because they are religious. Now whether or not the confessional seal is harmful is a separate matter to my point.
I'm of the opinion that it can be harmful, but isn't necessarily.

[BK117B2]

In the U.S., the government lacks any authority to force the breaking of the seal.

Arguably untrue. It is not in society's interest to respect harmful traditions simply because they are religious. Now whether or not the confessional seal is harmful is a separate matter to my point.
I'm of the opinion that it can be harmful, but isn't necessarily.

Objectively it is true at the national level and in most states. I haven't seen every single state, so there may be a few that allow it.

[The Nuclear Fist]

The Church shouldn't get to protect pedophiles. Full stop. If the papal seal obstructs justoce in a sex crimes case than the papal seal can go fuck itself.

At best it should get the same sort of privilege lawyers get, and I'm iffy about giving a religious group that privilege. Doesn't seem worth it.

[Lleu llaw Gyffes]

1) If you make priests mandated reporters like that, you'll ensure that, on the same day, everyone stops confessing their crimes to priests.
2) And we lose one of the only forces in our entire society capable of pulling some people back from committing future crimes.
3) I know I used to cut myself for years, and because mandated reporter laws meant that I would literally be arrested, forced to go to a mental hospital, or forced to take psychoactive drugs against my will.

1) You assert that IF there were a Statute that priests must whistle-blow on rapists, then rapists would stop confessing.
I have no problem with this. According to Common Law, rapists should go to prison.
According to Roman Catholicism, rapists who confess go to RC Heaven and chocolate-eaters in Lent who do not confess go to RC Hell. Yea! Send those RC rapists to RC Hell.

2) Rapist confesses, priest forgives rapist "It's no biggie, it's not like you ate chocolate in Lent." How the Fuck does that encourage rapists to stop raping???

3) I sympathize, but the analogy don't fit.
Therapists' duty is confidentiality except when keeping confidence would make things even worse. You cite a specific example where the Therapist should have kept confidence and THEN assert that priestly confidence should NOT have the except when keeping confidence would make things even worse clause.

Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Wed May 13, 2015 5:25 pm

Lleu llaw Gyffes wrote:
Are you saying that Freedom of Worship includes the Right to rape children?

You are correct. It IS illegal. A priest who whistle-blows about rapists has no protection under the current Law. That is why I proposed a new Statute. Current law punishes whistle-blowing priests. I want a NEW law to protect whistle-blowing priests.


Current law is neutral. The law you propose would amount to the government telling people who their religious leaders must be, and who religious organizations must support.

That is a dangerous road to start down.

Current law is NOT neutral. If an RC priest whistle-blows on a rapist, then the RC bishop will sack him. Under the statute that I propose, then the priest will continue to work in his parish; if the RC bishop tries to sack the whistle-blower, then the bishop goes to prison.

It is up to the pope whether that bishop continues in office, or the pope can appoint a new bishop.

The law you propose would amount to the government telling people who their religious leaders

All I am saying is that if a bishop protects rapists, then that bishop goes to prison for committing a crime.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

What is the general view here on the seal of the confessional? Is it a holy sacrament and an integral part of freedom of religion, or does it provide cover for sex offenders and murderers? Should priests be held accountable for the crimes they forgive in confession? Does the Catholic Church subvert the rule of law through confession?

I'm interested in hear the responses. I had a very loud argument with a progressive Catholic friend over this; she believes that the sacrament shouldn't be used to protect criminals, whereas I take the traditional view the the seal is unbreakable.

1. I'm not worried about it.

2. It's a holy sacrament to Catholics, which makes it an integral part of freedom of religion.

3. No, priests shouldn't be held accountable for forgiving them.

4. I don't see how one could reasonably make that argument.

[Lleu llaw Gyffes]

What is the general view here on the seal of the confessional? Is it a holy sacrament and an integral part of freedom of religion, or does it provide cover for sex offenders and murderers? Should priests be held accountable for the crimes they forgive in confession? Does the Catholic Church subvert the rule of law through confession?

I'm interested in hear the responses. I had a very loud argument with a progressive Catholic friend over this; she believes that the sacrament shouldn't be used to protect criminals, whereas I take the traditional view the the seal is unbreakable.

1. I'm not worried about it.

2. It's a holy sacrament to Catholics, which makes it an integral part of freedom of religion.

3. No, priests shouldn't be held accountable for forgiving them.

4. I don't see how one could reasonably make that argument.

1) I am worried BECAUSE in encourages the rape of children.

2) Will you support Human Sacrifice?
Freedom of Worship is excellent, but there are limits.

[NERVUN]

1. I'm not worried about it.

2. It's a holy sacrament to Catholics, which makes it an integral part of freedom of religion.

3. No, priests shouldn't be held accountable for forgiving them.

4. I don't see how one could reasonably make that argument.

1) I am worried BECAUSE in encourages the rape of children.

Bull.

2) Will you support Human Sacrifice?
Freedom of Worship is excellent, but there are limits.

Wow. from 0 to silly in .6 seconds.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

1. I'm not worried about it.

2. It's a holy sacrament to Catholics, which makes it an integral part of freedom of religion.

3. No, priests shouldn't be held accountable for forgiving them.

4. I don't see how one could reasonably make that argument.

1) I am worried BECAUSE in encourages the rape of children.

2) Will you support Human Sacrifice?
Freedom of Worship is excellent, but there are limits.

1. You think that the priest on the other side is going "Oh, man, tell me more about that eight year-old"? "Next time, you'd better come to me with some better stories about raping kids"?

2. No.

[Insaeldor]

The government should respect it in most cases with the exception being in a criminal case against someone who is charged with a crime and has supposedly confessed to it in a confession. It should be respected but not infallible.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The government should respect it in most cases with the exception being in a criminal case against someone who is charged with a crime and has supposedly confessed to it in a confession. It should be respected but not infallible.

Should priests be imprisoned for refusing to testify?

[Dyakovo]

1) I am worried BECAUSE in encourages the rape of children.

2) Will you support Human Sacrifice?
Freedom of Worship is excellent, but there are limits.

1. You think that the priest on the other side is going "Oh, man, tell me more about that eight year-old"? "Next time, you'd better come to me with some better stories about raping kids"?.

It wouldn't particularly surprise me if there were priests who at least thought that...

[Insaeldor]

The government should respect it in most cases with the exception being in a criminal case against someone who is charged with a crime and has supposedly confessed to it in a confession. It should be respected but not infallible.

Should priests be imprisoned for refusing to testify?

If they refuse to dispel knowledge of felony they should be held in contempt of court. Although this shouldn't be something that just happening and we should work with the Holy See to in act a policy in regards to this issue.

[Lleu llaw Gyffes]

1) I am worried BECAUSE in encourages the rape of children.

Bull.

2) Will you support Human Sacrifice?
Freedom of Worship is excellent, but there are limits.

Wow. from 0 to silly in .6 seconds.

Wow, from the real world example of RC priests raping children to the hypothetical example of RC priests committing Human Sacrifice in .6 seconds.

OK, murder is a bigger crime than rape. therefore .6 seconds is too short a delay time. What is the correct delay time?

And is it silly to say Freedom of Worship does NOT include Human Sacrifice?
And IF we can limit FoW to forbid Sacrifice, why can't we limit FoW to forbid rape?

1)If they refuse to dispel knowledge of felony they should be held in contempt of court.
2) Although this shouldn't be something that just happening and we should work with the Holy See to in act a policy in regards to this issue.

1) I agree.
2) I disagree, we already know which side the holy see is on.

[NERVUN]

1. You think that the priest on the other side is going "Oh, man, tell me more about that eight year-old"? "Next time, you'd better come to me with some better stories about raping kids"?.

It wouldn't particularly surprise me if there were priests who at least thought that...

And...?