NationStates

Middle East-based archaeologist mod claims indeterminate moderator privilege in making this a separate thread rather than merging it into the ISIS megathread, partly because I'd like to see it have some prominence on its own, and partly because the topic of preservation of Middle Eastern antiquities in war zones isn't solely an ISIS issue.


Anyway, leaving aside their ongoing assaults on basic human dignity for a moment, it seems that ISIS have bulldozed at least part of the ancient Assyrian city of Nimrud to the ground over the last week:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-31760656
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... mosul-iraq
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/world ... .html?_r=0
http://www.wsj.com/articles/islamic-sta ... 1425600798
http://rt.com/news/238265-iraq-isis-ancient-site/

(Deliberate attempt made to provide links from news sources running across a range of ideological perspectives)

While much of the movable cultural heritage of the city is in museums in Baghdad and Europe (the British Museum has a particularly fine collection of Nimrud artefacts), much remains on site - particularly many of the large Lamassu (winged bull with human head) statues so characteristic of Assyrian art. The Mosul museum also has, or rather had (see below), a fine collection of Assyrian art.

Nimrud (actually called Kalhu by the Assyrians) is one of the most significant archaeological sites in the Fertile Crescent. It's located c. 30km southeast of modern Mosul, and was the capital of the Assyrian Empire for over 150 years, including during the reign of Tiglath-Pileser III, one of the most important of Assyrian emperors. It remained a royal residence until the collapse of the Assyrian Empire.

The site is not just significant for its intrinsic historical and cultural value, but also for the role it holds in the history of the development of archaeology. A basic outline of the city's importance is available on the relevant Wiki page.


The destruction of Middle Eastern heritage of global significance isn't solely an ISIS issue, nor is solely an issue of Islamic fundamentalism, as is partially outlined in the old spoilered posts here....



.... however, the destruction of Nimrud, if confirmed (and ISIS have already demolished most of the Assyrian collections in the Mosul Museum), is likely the single most egregious act of cultural vandalism against a major archaeological site by Islamic extremists since the Taliban blew up the Buddhas of Bamiyan. Depending on the scale of the bulldozing - and Nimrud is a big site - it could easily surpass the Bamiyan incident in scope.


Now, I'm not arguing that the protection of archaeological sites should take priority over the protection of human life and basic human rights, but nor are those two goals incompatible. I'm not sure that there's much we - however you define 'we' - can do on a practical level here; it's not as if ISIS or other Islamic fundamentalist groups are going to just invite the International Committee of the Blue Shield in to preserve these sites (nor, despite my own current work on Gulf World Heritage sites, would I be personally stupid enough to volunteer for the job even if asked). Even where a stable state agency exists in the region, there's no guarantee of preservation; Saudi Arabia, for example, deliberately avoids placing Mecca and Medina on the UNESCO World Heritage list so as to circumvent international concern over the government's ongoing destruction of the cultural heritage of the two most historically important cities in Islam.

But for anyone who cares about the past, this destruction of our global cultural heritage is a matter of profound concern.

I invite comment on these issues; and while Nimrud may be the initial catalyst for the thread, discussion needn't be limited to that one site or to ISIS specifically.

I saw a documentary a few weeks back proposing Nineveh as an alternate site for The Hanging Gardens of Babylon and that clearly showed the difficulties, impossibilities really, and huge dangers in investigating further giving Nineveh’s proximity to Mosul. The Western academics and film crew bunkered down in Erbil while a local team had to actually risk their lives just to surreptitiously film the site.

That too alluded to the systematic destruction of the rich and extensive historical legacy present in that part of the world. And while there’s obviously no comparison with the human suffering occurring under IS’s black banner such acts of destruction by them (and groups of similar ilk, the Taliban’s treatment of the Buddhas of Bamiyan springs to mind) still resonant as being cruel, senseless and heartbreaking.

This makes my so angry, and sad, that I better not comment further.

I'm dismayed, angry, sad, helpless, surprised and at the same time, not so surprised ISIS is doing this. I wish I knew a sure way to stop these fuckwads.

The Archregimancy wrote:...
As an archaeologist who's currently living and working in the Middle East, it's obviously a topic of particular interest to me. ...

Shame on you and on the worldwide archaeologists' community for NOT launching a jihad against those barbaric jerkasses known as Daesh.

More seriously, while moving stuff to safer locations can help, it can be seen just as a temporary and partial measure, because
1) moving what can be moved to other countries is bad for the local economy, which could profit a lot from tourism - in a Daesh-free future, ofc.
2) there's a lot of stuff one cannot reasonably move - especially in Mesopotamia, one of the regions with some of the most ancient cities in the world.

I hope the UNESCO rises up to the challenge and, after Daesh has been eliminated (which is going to happen sooner or later), helps Iraq and Syria to recover their archeological sites and to promote again tourism in the region.

What exactly should we discusss?

That Islam is dangerous is already admitted by various numbers of people, even by left-wingers, liberals and other forms of self-hating people. The only thing is that they have change their approach to Muslims from "a minority opressed by the whites" to "we need to help them to change what society has failed to integrate them".

It is really sad that some people have such a lack of respect for their history. I wish there was some way to just make them see how stupid they are being.

All the more insentive for proud Iraqis to fight back, I mean not only are they raping your lives and molesting your children before they sell as sex slaves to wealthy russian oligarchs but their also destroying your nations great heritage.

Anyways fuck these guys they obviously have no shred of respect for anything and everything. No better then the Taliban if not vastly worse.

Risottia wrote:

The Archregimancy wrote:...
As an archaeologist who's currently living and working in the Middle East, it's obviously a topic of particular interest to me. ...

Shame on you and on the worldwide archaeologists' community for NOT launching a jihad against those barbaric jerkasses known as Daesh.

More seriously, while moving stuff to safer locations can help, it can be seen just as a temporary and partial measure, because
1) moving what can be moved to other countries is bad for the local economy, which could profit a lot from tourism - in a Daesh-free future, ofc.
2) there's a lot of stuff one cannot reasonably move - especially in Mesopotamia, one of the regions with some of the most ancient cities in the world.

I hope the UNESCO rises up to the challenge and, after Daesh has been eliminated (which is going to happen sooner or later), helps Iraq and Syria to recover their archeological sites and to promote again tourism in the region.

The problem is that there's very little UNESCO can do on a practical level. Its authority is almost solely moral.

UNESCO is almost entirely dependent on national governments and NGOs for practical responses to threats to cultural heritage. When it comes to World Heritage sites, for example, all UNESCO can realistically do is threaten to delist a site when that site is in danger. Delisting has only every happened twice, and neither the Omani nor the German governments seemed to be particularly bothered by the loss of prestige - which was the only practical loss involved - stemming from delisting.

In so far as there is a practical body for the protection of cultural heritage, it's the International Committee of the Blue Shield - the cultural heritage version of the Red Cross - which has the right to identify and mark heritage sites for protection in conflict zones under the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict (I love how the US has unilaterally declared that it understands the convention to only apply to 'conventional weapons'; but that's a different issue).

But really, who thinks that most armed groups in the Middle East - regardless of their ideological justification - pay any more attention to the Hague Convention than they would to the Geneva Conventions?

Edit:

And shame - shame I say! - on an Italian communist for using the US government (not even universal American) spelling of 'archaeological'. Boo hiss.

Aside from demolishing the big, famous archeological artifacts, ISIS is ALSO involved in black market trade with smaller items (statuettes and such). Because no extremist ideology is complete without a healthy dose of self-contradicting hypocrisy.

Because cultural heritage is now Shirk to ISIS salafis, if we could call them that. These assfucks have lost their sense of context here.

Hey, at least they value a place in their turf, but Dabiq is only significant in Quranic Eschatology which in my.opinion is taken too fucking literally by them.

This shit just pisses me off.

Baltenstein wrote:Aside from demolishing the big, famous archeological artifacts, ISIS is ALSO involved in black market trade with smaller items (statuettes and such). Because no extremist ideology is complete without a healthy dose of self-contradicting hypocrisy.

Sounds like they're going to go to Jahannam anyway.

Topkek

I remember hearing a while back that Canada had done an airstrike against IS construction vehicles or something and thinking it was a bit absurd. But now I'm feeling a lot more satisfied with my country's choice of targets.

Busen wrote:What exactly should we discusss?

That Islam is dangerous is already admitted by various numbers of people, even by left-wingers, liberals and other forms of self-hating people. The only thing is that they have change their approach to Muslims from "a minority opressed by the whites" to "we need to help them to change what society has failed to integrate them".

*** Warned for trolling *** not only with the broad painting of Islam in general, but for your 'self-hating people' lumped in with all those groups you appear to dislike. There are better ways of framing your opinions than this, and by now, you really ought to know better. There's also plenty to discuss if you take a moment and think it through. Not that that little snip was actionable.

Keep it clean, folks.

It's very sad, but ISIS continues to do what they do best, and that's constant media coverage. Seems somewhat counter-intuitive to destroy your own country's priceless artefacts, but there you go.

Disgusting and unthinkable, as usual from ISIL. There's something so... barbaric about destroying cultural and archaeological sites, and it really infuriates me. It makes me equally mad when I hear about Saudi Arabia demolishing ancient Islamic sites for commercial concerns, rebels in Mali doing the same, and road-workers in Central and South America desecrating native sites. It doesn't matter where the sites are or who's destroying them- it's just utterly appalling. Not only do measures need to be taken to stop people like ISIL as quickly as possible, but bodies such as UNESCO need to be more proactive in securing the lasting safety of these sites.

There are many things I could say, but none that I would not be banned for. I think everyone knows my opinions on preserving historical and cultural artifacts and my opinions on Islam. I'll leave it at that.

The Archregimancy wrote:

Risottia wrote:Shame on you and on the worldwide archaeologists' community for NOT launching a jihad against those barbaric jerkasses known as Daesh.

More seriously, while moving stuff to safer locations can help, it can be seen just as a temporary and partial measure, because
1) moving what can be moved to other countries is bad for the local economy, which could profit a lot from tourism - in a Daesh-free future, ofc.
2) there's a lot of stuff one cannot reasonably move - especially in Mesopotamia, one of the regions with some of the most ancient cities in the world.

I hope the UNESCO rises up to the challenge and, after Daesh has been eliminated (which is going to happen sooner or later), helps Iraq and Syria to recover their archeological sites and to promote again tourism in the region.

The problem is that there's very little UNESCO can do on a practical level. Its authority is almost solely moral.

UNESCO is almost entirely dependent on national governments and NGOs for practical responses to threats to cultural heritage. ...

Yup, but AFTER the war they could help recover and rebuild it, couldn't they?

But really, who thinks that most armed groupsin the Middle East- regardless of their ideological justification - pay any more attention to the Hague Convention than they would to the Geneva Conventions?

Fixed, because it's not like many armed groups EVERYWHERE cared a lot for that - with some exceptions, but still.

And shame - shame I say! - on an Italian communist for using the US government (not even universal American) spelling of 'archaeological'. Boo hiss.

I thought it was derived straight from the form of "archaeologist" used by British archaeologists. What would be the proper
spelling?

The Archregimancy wrote:Middle East-based archaeologist

Quintium wrote:There are many things I could say, but none that I would not be banned for. I think everyone knows my opinions on preserving historical and cultural artifacts and my opinions on Islam. I'll leave it at that.

If you know that what you want to say is objectionable and bannable, why insinuate it at all?

Risottia wrote:

The Archregimancy wrote:And shame - shame I say! - on an Italian communist for using the US government (not even universal American) spelling of 'archaeological'. Boo hiss.

I thought it was derived straight from the form of "archaeologist" used by British archaeologists. What would be the proper
spelling?

The Archregimancy wrote:Middle East-based archaeologist

Ah, but you left out the second 'a'. Note the underlined below:

Risottia wrote:I hope the UNESCO rises up to the challenge and, after Daesh has been eliminated (which is going to happen sooner or later), helps Iraq and Syria to recover their archeological sites and to promote again tourism in the region.

The spelling 'archeology' and its variants is only used by some branches of the US government and some US university anthropology departments, typically those who embraced a particular theoretical perspective in the 1960s. Almost all US-based professional societies, and the majority of academic institutions, continue to use 'archaeology', however.

Destroy the past, and you control the future. The Soviets knew that when they tried to stamp out all aspects of Tsarist Russia (including religion), the Khmer Rouge as well, and now ISIS.

This is a real shame. Quite a lot of people off my course at uni are going Jordan/Turkey this summer for digs, wouldn't risk it myself personally

Absolutely awful. And though it's completely in line with the Wahhabi/Salafi idea of destroying 'idolatrous' historic sites, I've no doubt this latest spate of destruction is a specific assault on the Assyrians and their history.

The Archregimancy wrote:The spelling 'archeology' and its variants is only used by some branches of the US government and some US university anthropology departments, typically those who embraced a particular theoretical perspective in the 1960s. Almost all US-based professional societies, and the majority of academic institutions, continue to use 'archaeology', however.

Why is English so obsessed with superfluous etymological letters? Foneticized alfabet master race.

Devvo Mate wrote:This is a real shame. Quite a lot of people off my course at uni are going Jordan/Turkey this summer for digs, wouldn't risk it myself personally

Most of Jordan is fine; likewise the overwhelming majority of Turkey. I have friends with active and continuing research programmes in both countries, and would have no particular qualms about working in either if the opportunity presented itself.