ISIL Destroying Islamic Sites

[Victoriala]

Goddamn, ISIS. You want to start stealing candy from babies and kicking puppies too? You're already a fucking supervillain organization.

Not so much supervillian, just barbarians.

Attila the Hun didn't shit on people on religious grounds tho

[Salus Maior]

Not so much supervillian, just barbarians.

Attila the Hun didn't shit on people on religious grounds tho

Still massacred millions and destroyed cities. Anyway, I was thinking more of the Vandals in this particular case.

And besides, what's worse? Shitting on people indiscriminately, or on religious grounds? At least on religious grounds some people would be safe. Even if it is discriminatory.

[Dakran]

Oh... Well shit... Is there going to be anything left in the middle east by the time I get around to visiting cultural sites? This is honestly saddening...

Well, I assume Israel's sites will still be secure.

That's still only one area though.

[Victoriala]

Attila the Hun didn't shit on people on religious grounds tho

Still massacred millions and destroyed cities. Anyway, I was thinking more of the Vandals in this particular case.

And besides, what's worse? Shitting on people indiscriminately, or on religious grounds? At least on religious grounds some people would be safe. Even if it is discriminatory.

True that

Oh... Well shit... Is there going to be anything left in the middle east by the time I get around to visiting cultural sites? This is honestly saddening...

Well, I assume Israel's sites will still be secure.

Assuming ISIS has a distaste for Jews, let's just hope it is so.

[Herskerstad]

Yup, it's another Mecca-like cleansing in their eyes. Smashing the idols and all that.

[Byarozovka]

This absolutely sickens me.

[The Archregimancy]

ISIS claims anything from the pre-Islamic era is automatically blasphemous? The Kaaba was originally carved with over 360 idols of arabic pagan gods and spirits.

*grabs sledgehammer*

Let's get to work!

They actually do want to destroy the Kaaba.

This statement surprised me so much that I've spent some time trying to look at it more closely; given what this entails, it's a genuinely shocking claim as destruction of one of the most revered sites across all manifestations of Islam would surely cause outright revulsion across the Muslim world.

The origin of this story seems to rest with an unsubstantiated quote in the Azeri national news agency APA, that was subsequently conditionally reported in the Huffington Post.

Note that the HuffPost story contains this important opening disclaimer:

The Twitter account https://twitter.com/nm8smyh, which sent the original message, has been suspended. The authenticity of the account as belonging to an ISIS member has not been verified.

No mainstream news agency subsequently picked up on the story as far as I can tell; even Fox News restrained themselves to a qualified reference to "an unverified threat to Mecca itself, the holy city in Sunni-dominated Saudi Arabia where Muslims believe they must make one pilgrimage during their lifetimes, was unprecedented. Allegedly tweeted by a member of the extremist group on a since-suspended account".

Therefore there's no means of verifying whether this one-off quote reported by one of Europe's more obscure news agencies (and apparently missed by every other news agency) is in any way true, or represents some clever anti-ISIS propaganda.

Because if ISIS are threatening to blow up the Kaaba and parts of the Al-Masjid al-Haram, they are openly rejecting a key part of one of the Five Pillars of Islam, and they are no therefore longer Muslims; which is an observation that would surely suit a lot of people.

[Victoriala]

They actually do want to destroy the Kaaba.

This statement surprised me so much that I've spent some time trying to look at it more closely; given what this entails, it's a genuinely shocking claim as destruction of one of the most revered sites across all manifestations of Islam would surely cause outright revulsion across the Muslim world.

The origin of this story seems to rest with an unsubstantiated quote in the Azeri national news agency APA, that was subsequently conditionally reported in the Huffington Post.

Note that the HuffPost story contains this important opening disclaimer:

The Twitter account https://twitter.com/nm8smyh, which sent the original message, has been suspended. The authenticity of the account as belonging to an ISIS member has not been verified.

No mainstream news agency subsequently picked up on the story as far as I can tell; even Fox News restrained themselves to a qualified reference to "an unverified threat to Mecca itself, the holy city in Sunni-dominated Saudi Arabia where Muslims believe they must make one pilgrimage during their lifetimes, was unprecedented. Allegedly tweeted by a member of the extremist group on a since-suspended account".

Therefore there's no means of verifying whether this one-off quote reported by one of Europe's more obscure news agencies (and apparently missed by every other news agency) is in any way true, or represents some clever anti-ISIS propaganda.

Because if ISIS are threatening to blow up the Kaaba and parts of the Al-Masjid al-Haram, they are openly rejecting a key part of one of the Five Pillars of Islam, and they are no therefore longer Muslims; which is an observation that would surely suit a lot of people.

If so, therefore Bernard Haykel is wrong all along. Fine with me.

[Utceforp]

As someone who has a large interest in early Mesopotamian history, this is especially saddening. Every artifact destroyed is a piece of history we will never recover.

[Nazis in Space]

Given the Assyrians' habit of setting things - and people - on fire, I can't help but feel that ISIS is a worthy successor to the Assyrian Empire. They even cover much of the same area!

Admittedly, ISIS also sets a lot of books on fire, whereas Ashurbanipal tried to collect books...

Attila the Hun didn't shit on people on religious grounds tho

Still massacred millions and destroyed cities.

Tens of thousands, maybe. Though it wasn't all that indiscriminate - he was big on integrating conquered peoples into his empire. Could find all kinds of folks at his court. Huns, Germanic peoples, Romans... And if you paid him the shinies he wanted, he'd bugger off again. All in all, a fairly agreeable gentleman by the standards of conquerors.

[Devvo Mate]

Yeah, right.

Completely dull and a waste of time.

But it's a damned shame that the majority of the general public disagree with us, right?

I think it's because they don't realise it's less Indiana Jones and more drawing lots of little circles on a board repeatedly, then washing soil to see if we find any charcoal or seeds in it. About 4 hours of trowelling equals one seed, as far as I can tell.

[Herskerstad]

Given the Assyrians' habit of setting things - and people - on fire, I can't help but feel that ISIS is a worthy successor to the Assyrian Empire. They even cover much of the same area!

Admittedly, ISIS also sets a lot of books on fire, whereas Ashurbanipal tried to collect books...

Still massacred millions and destroyed cities.

Tens of thousands, maybe. Though it wasn't all that indiscriminate - he was big on integrating conquered peoples into his empire. Could find all kinds of folks at his court. Huns, Germanic peoples, Romans... And if you paid him the shinies he wanted, he'd bugger off again. All in all, a fairly agreeable gentleman by the standards of conquerors.

Not all that accurate on the point of Attila the Hun.He did disrespect numerous treaties and even attacked the eastern roman empire at one point while still collecting tribute from them. He did either continue or create the head-binding tradition which deformed an entire generation, and only God knows what kind of neurological impact such had on posterity. Completely annihilated the Burgundian. Certainly was no major friends of the neighboring tribes which would be Germans, goths, saxons, ect. You get the point. While he did have a high regard for loyalty, it stood limited on whom he accepted this from and, generally speaking, the choice of those who could was quite limited indeed. And this mysticism in regards to 'noble' conquerors, which among the worst spawn of humanity which he finds himself firmly rooted in with, along with the likes of Genghis Khan. Is historical fiction that could only hold relevance in a nihilistic outlook. Of rulers you'd want to be the subject to in a racial or religious difference, he's easily on the bottom ten choices, as I am certain a great deal of Bishop's who had him visit, only to be a head shorter when he exited would testify if they could.

Though when it comes to the Islamic middle east, ISIS and how they are trying to imitate the five rightly guided caliphs stands more relevant than the Hunnic scourge.

[Baltenstein]

They actually do want to destroy the Kaaba.

This statement surprised me so much that I've spent some time trying to look at it more closely; given what this entails, it's a genuinely shocking claim as destruction of one of the most revered sites across all manifestations of Islam would surely cause outright revulsion across the Muslim world.

The origin of this story seems to rest with an unsubstantiated quote in the Azeri national news agency APA, that was subsequently conditionally reported in the Huffington Post.

Note that the HuffPost story contains this important opening disclaimer:

The Twitter account https://twitter.com/nm8smyh, which sent the original message, has been suspended. The authenticity of the account as belonging to an ISIS member has not been verified.

No mainstream news agency subsequently picked up on the story as far as I can tell; even Fox News restrained themselves to a qualified reference to "an unverified threat to Mecca itself, the holy city in Sunni-dominated Saudi Arabia where Muslims believe they must make one pilgrimage during their lifetimes, was unprecedented. Allegedly tweeted by a member of the extremist group on a since-suspended account".

Therefore there's no means of verifying whether this one-off quote reported by one of Europe's more obscure news agencies (and apparently missed by every other news agency) is in any way true, or represents some clever anti-ISIS propaganda.

Because if ISIS are threatening to blow up the Kaaba and parts of the Al-Masjid al-Haram, they are openly rejecting a key part of one of the Five Pillars of Islam, and they are no therefore longer Muslims; which is an observation that would surely suit a lot of people.

It was rather big news in most German mainstream media when the claim first showed up. Though I just did a google search myself and it looks like they are indeed all basing their claim on a single report of a Turkish news agency, which in turned quoted a tweet by a single alleged ISIS member.

I therefore moderate my former post, as there is no bullet-proof verification of ISIS wanting to destroy the Kaaba. On the other hand, I haven't seem them publicly clarifying that the allegation was misplaced either.

[Kaztropol]

One of the radio stations here (Radio Scotland) has a "thought for the day" segment, with various religious and other commentators giving a couple minutes talk about something topical. One of the regular commentators is Dr. Mona Siddiqui.

She was asked about Nimrud, and said that this vandalism is another sign of how these extremists (and others) are ignorant of the real history of early Islam, particularly the relationships with other religions.
She said that many Muslim visitors to museums of Islamic history, are surprised to learn about what early islamic culture was like.


It reminded me of a phrase in one of the Dune novels. "Those that would repeat history, must control the teaching of it".

This destruction of artifacts, is nothing less than an attempt to control the teaching of history, to rewrite it, for ideological reasons. To erase the history of co-existence, and replace it with complete dominance of a singular interpretation.

[Tagmatium]

Yeah, right.

Completely dull and a waste of time.

But it's a damned shame that the majority of the general public disagree with us, right?

I think it's because they don't realise it's less Indiana Jones and more drawing lots of little circles on a board repeatedly, then washing soil to see if we find any charcoal or seeds in it. About 4 hours of trowelling equals one seed, as far as I can tell.

I can say that you don't really know the realities of archaeology.

I've never spent time drawing little circles on boards, I must say. And it really does depend on what sort of site you're digging - I'm currently working on a late Iron Age/Romano-British field system, and we're getting lots of pot and bone. There have also been about three burials discovered, too. They're all within storage pits, one of an adolescent female who has had one arm disarticulated and showing signs of butchery. As well as having been beheaded post-mortem and the skull placed between the knees and a horse skull placed roughly where the skull would have originally been.

Weird shit.

We also don't use a trowel all that much, as using a mattock and a shovel is quicker.

But the techniques used in commercial archaeology - like I am in - can often differ quite a lot when compared to research archaeology.

[Devvo Mate]

But the techniques used in commercial archaeology - like I am in - can often differ quite a lot when compared to research archaeology.

Well there's your answer. Commercial archaeologist on the dig I was at over summer was almost suicidal by the end of it.

[Jetan]

This is one of those things that just fills you with cold rage, sadness and helplessness. I can't describe it in any other way.

[The Archregimancy]

But the techniques used in commercial archaeology - like I am in - can often differ quite a lot when compared to research archaeology.

Commercial archaeology and academic archaeology have almost totally disassociated from each other in the UK.

They (usually) publish in different journals, (usually) attend different conferences, and - as you note - have a very different field culture in methodology and even, I'd argue, internal cultural mindset. The training an individual needs to be a successful commercial field archaeologist is very different from the training the same individual would need to be a a successful academic archaeologist. Indeed, it's remarkable how relatively few PhD students in the UK these days do any digging; and a similarly small number do any artefact analysis (of either new or archived collections). There are notable exceptions (faunal specialists being prominent among them), but UK PhD students seem to be increasingly moving towards the study of standing structures and landscapes rather than excavatable sites.

The situation is very different in the US, where archaeology PhD students are typically (though not universally) expected to direct their own excavation or analyse their own assemblage, and there's better - though by no means total - integration between commercial and academic wings of the discipline within publications and conferences.

But perhaps a topic for a different thread....

[Galmarch]

Destroying objects and places like this is just saddening and angering.
Lots of cool and interesting places and objects of history destroyed, hopefully there are some replicas somewhere.
While it is not as good as the original things in greatness it would still be better than nothing.

[Baltenstein]

ISIS apparently destroyed the ancient city of Hatra, founded by the Seleucid empire.

Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) militants bulldozed early Saturday the ancient city of Hatra founded 3rd or 2nd BC by the Seleucide Empire, activists and Kurdish media reported.

Spokesman for the 14th branch of the Kurdish Democratic Party (KDP) in Ninveh province Saeed Mumuzini told Rudaw news website that “ISIS militants used buldozzers to destroy Hatra city.”

“ISIS stole the ancient gold and silver coins, which were used by the Assyrian kings and were stored in the city,” Mumuzini added.

Hatra is located 80 kilometers south of Mosul, and is currently a district in the northern Iraqi city, which was seized in a lightening offensive by ISIS militants in June last year.

Hatra floused during the 1st and 2nd centuries AD as a religious and trading center after it was captured the Parthian Empire.

Later on, the city became the capital of possibly the first Arab kingdom in the chain of Arab cities running from Hatra, in the northeast, via Palmyra, Baalbek and Petra, in the southwest.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/mi ... Mosul.html

[Charlotte Ryberg]

I don't know why IS would take it out on heritage just for their undoubtedly ridiculous ideology.

I know that the UK and US may not have perfect governments with the other scandals, but IS has already gone too far.

[Arcanda]

I find it a bit sad, they're destroying our heritage.We've only got one.

[Rio Cana]

They explained on tv news that ancient religious objects were being destroyed by them. If the ancient artifact is not religious then it was to be sold.

Generally speaking, the more they destroy the more value the items they sell will have since intact ancient artifacts will become more scares.

So the question is, how is getting rich off selling the items. And where is the money going. Chances are little of it stays in that warzone.

[Camelza]

Someone must put an end to the ISIS conflict and fast. We can't have religious zealots erasing thousands of years of history, massacring innocents, destabilising a whole region of our planet and getting away with it. I think it's high time for the UN to step in.

[Busen]

Ebul Nimrud offended the feelings of muslims. Nimrud was obviously islamophobic.