Didn't i already say FQ you?
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by The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:31 pm
by Mavorpen » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:35 pm
by Shaggai » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:37 pm
Vilatania wrote:It's irrelevant. Demonstrating that he "could" exist does not demonstrate that he does. We already know he "could". What we want is evidence that demonstrates that he does.Shaggai wrote:God need not be matter or energy. Just because matter and energy are all that exist in our universe doesn't mean that God must be matter or energy. Furthermore, God doesn't need to exist in our universe, in the same way Shakespeare doesn't need to be a character in Hamlet.
I admit that the metaphor gets somewhat strained, but if you have an actual objection, say it. Simply saying that I can't possibly think it's a logical argument is not, in fact, an argument.
Just because matter and energy are all that exist in our universe doesn't mean that God must be matter or energy.
Prove it.
Furthermore, God doesn't need to exist in our universe, in the same way Shakespeare doesn't need to be a character in Hamlet.
Prove it.
Shaggai wrote:If William Shakespeare exists, he must be words.
No, he must be energy. Which he was.
There is nothing else. To not be words, by definition, is not to exist.
Well God is words, so does he exist?
So let's say that Shakespeare is words.
No.
Here we run into another problem: authorists claim that Shakespeare created Hamlet, which is the realm of all words.
Demonstrably false.
For Hamlet to maintain its aforementioned definition, it must follow that Shakespeare is not words, because Shakespeare cannot create all words when he is already words. Words cannot exist outside of Hamlet. Shakespeare's existence depends therefore on the prior existence of a book of words.
Demonstrably false.
This negates His status as the author, and therefore his status as Shakespeare.
Funny thing is that some people actually think Shakespeare didn't write his own works, so this is a very roundabout way to substantiate said claim.
Conclusion: it is not that Shakespeare may not exist; it is that Shakespeare cannot exist.
Demonstrably. False.
Conclusion: this is a terrible metaphor.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:56 pm
Shaggai wrote:I think the burden of proof is rather on you.
Go read Hamlet. Do you see a character named William Shakespeare? No, of course not.
Which, you may note, is not present in Hamlet, since Hamlet is words.
What? Who said God is words?
Then why say that God is matter and energy?
As I said, the analogy isn't perfect. However, from within Hamlet, all known (and knowable) words exist within Hamlet. You should also probably note that I was responding to a post. Take that into account.
See the post I was responding to.
My point exactly.
No, actually. It works quite well.
by Shaggai » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:07 pm
Go read Hamlet. Do you see a character named William Shakespeare? No, of course not.
That's not what I was referring to when I said that.
Which, you may note, is not present in Hamlet, since Hamlet is words.
I've already established that your analogy is bullshit.
What? Who said God is words?
I did.
Then why say that God is matter and energy?
Because we have no evidence that something that exists doesn't need to be energy. Ergo, if God exists, then he is energy according to empirical evidence.
My point exactly.
You're right for the wrong reasons.
by The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:12 pm
although I suspect that's not what you're talking about. However, as per the analogy: go find something that isn't made of words in Hamlet.
by Wallenburg » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:15 pm
by Mavorpen » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:17 pm
by Wallenburg » Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:20 pm
by Greater Beggnig » Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:14 pm
Vilatania wrote:As I stated when I first joined the discussion many posts ago, I believe they have a disorder because they cannot face evidence without either ignoring it, or replying with more unprovable concepts. They think they have evidence, but when asked to provide it they can't. It's really just a label, theres no medical basis to it. Your all a bunch of kids with ADD to me.Jute wrote:Why should you be mentally ill to be able to believe in things that can't be proven?
Also: What This Depression Survivor Hears When You Call Religion A Mental Illness
5 reasons atheists shouldn’t call religion a mental illness
by Shaggai » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:12 pm
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Shaggai wrote:Well, matter for one thing,
Matter is energy.although I suspect that's not what you're talking about. However, as per the analogy: go find something that isn't made of words in Hamlet.
What. The. Fuck.
Cut this analogy shit out for one sevond. Are you telling my to find something to find something that isn't energy? That is YOUR job, not mine.
by Mavorpen » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:18 pm
Shaggai wrote:Matter and energy are equivalent.
Shaggai wrote: They are not "made out of" each other.
Shaggai wrote: Matter is not made out of the capacity to do work.
by Russels Orbiting Teapot » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:23 pm
Shaggai wrote:It is impossible to find something which is not matter/energy/information in this universe, in the same way that it is impossible to find something which is not words in Hamlet.
by Sociobiology » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:28 pm
Wallenburg wrote:Sociobiology wrote:
no you don't, it is a concept that disproves itself.
Either the first mover needs a cause (and thus is not a first mover) or the assumption that everything needs a cause is wrong ( and thus the justification for needing a first mover is gone.
You are incorrect. You see, there cannot be an infinite chain of causation, because then you need an infinite number of causes.
In the words of your computer, "Stack Overflow Error". Therefore, we must have an uncaused cause.
by Russels Orbiting Teapot » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:36 pm
Shaggai wrote:William Shakespeare clearly exists, despite not being made of words.
by Wallenburg » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:21 pm
Sociobiology wrote:In the words of your computer, "Stack Overflow Error". Therefore, we must have an uncaused cause.
If that is true why can't the universe be an uncaused, if as you claim, uncaused things must exist?
As I said it disproves itself.
by Vilatania » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:22 pm
FQ you literally translates to either "fuck you you" or 'Fuckability Quotient you" FQ does not mean "Fuck".
by Wallenburg » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:23 pm
by Shaggai » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:23 pm
Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:Shaggai wrote:William Shakespeare clearly exists, despite not being made of words.
And this is accepted based on information about William Shakespeare that can be verified independently.
We can imagine that a world created by a god might exist, but we need evidence to believe that we are living in that world.
by Vilatania » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:24 pm
It is yet another example where a Christian is attempting to prove God exists by proving it's possible for him to exist. It just doesn't work that way.
by Vilatania » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:26 pm
Then you are arguing the obvious. We all know we can't prove 100% that there isn't "a" God. But not being able to disprove him doesn't automatically justify believing that he does exist. Edit: It is important for you to be able to tell the difference between attempting to disprove ANY God and attempting to disprove the God in the bible. These are two different subjects, it IS possible to demonstrate with basic logic that the God in the bible is most likely not real.Shaggai wrote:Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:
And this is accepted based on information about William Shakespeare that can be verified independently.
We can imagine that a world created by a god might exist, but we need evidence to believe that we are living in that world.
I'm not arguing that God exists. I'm arguing that God cannot be disproved. If you look here you'll see that I've only responded with that metaphor to two kinds of posts: attempts to disprove God, and responses to my posts.
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