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4.1 Million Americans are not allowed to vote for President

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should US Citizens in the Territory be allowed to vote for President?

Yes, they should be able to vote
322
79%
No, they shouldn't be able to vote
66
16%
Other (Please say why below)
18
4%
 
Total votes : 406

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Organized States
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4.1 Million Americans are not allowed to vote for President

Postby Organized States » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:53 am

As some of you may know, John Oliver, host of Last Week Tonight, recently did a pretty damn good expose of the fact that 4.1 Million Americans cannot vote, despite holding citizenship. Some even, in American Samoa, aren't even US Citizens (despite the fact that they live in a US Territory). This is bringing new light to the issue that has existed since the United States acquired most of these territories in the 1890s.

Link to video and Source

To help commemorate the 50th anniversary of the march on Selma, Alabama, John Oliver focused his Last Week Tonight ire on a topic that does not tend to generate headlines: voting rights for the U.S. island territories — that is, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, and the Marianas Islands.

According to Oliver, there are 4.1 million people living in Puerto Rico and the island territories. Of that population, 98.4% are racial or ethnic minorities, none of whom have the right to vote in U.S. elections. According to Oliver, the more you look into the reasons that the U.S. territories don’t have voting rights, the harder it is to understand why these dated laws have not been changed. Way back in 1901, it was said that the island territories were inhabited by “alien races” that couldn’t “understand Anglo-Saxon principles” and thus were denied the vote. That hasn’t changed, despite the fact that even at the time, American legal thinkers thought that the territories’ lack of voting power should only last for a limited time. Fast forward 114 years and the U.S. citizens living on these territories still can’t vote, which Oliver compares to failing to update your computer operating system for over a millennium.

To bolster his argument that many U.S. citizens don’t understand the relationship between the 50 states and the U.S territories, Oliver showed clip after clip of news sources reporting that U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor was the child of Puerto Ricans who “immigrated” to the United States. As Oliver says, “If Puerto Ricans are immigrants, so is anyone who moves anywhere.” Despite the fact that Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens—and has more U.S. citizens than 21 states— they can’t vote for president, have no representation in the U.S. Senate and send only one non-voting delegate to the U.S. House. Oliver compares this status to letting a six-year old “vote” on where to spend the family vacation.

But Puerto Rico is lucky compared to some of the other U.S. territories. American Samoans aren’t even automatically granted U.S. citizenship, which, according to Oliver, renders the “American” part as moot as the phrases “social media expert” or “People’s Choice Award nominee.” Instead, they’re considered U.S. nationals, but not citizens. Over on Guam, 27% of the island is occupied by U.S. Navy and Air Force bases, and a staggering high number of Guam citizens are veterans of the U.S. military, but they still have no voting rights. Despite that, Guam holds a straw poll every presidential election and has higher voter turn-out than any other U.S. state — you know, the ones whose votes actually count.

It’s a valuable civics lesson and an important reminder to ask — if you don’t mind cribbing a line from Oliver — how is this still a thing?



So, what's your take, NSG? Should they be allowed to vote? Should they be continued to deny their constitutional rights as they are "Alien Races"?

So, after having lived in Guam, I can tell you that those people want to vote for President and they want to be able to have a say in Congress. They are Americans and they are proud to be Americans. I think Oliver, despite being a Comedian, made a massive advance forward for these people by once again bringing popular attention to this.
Last edited by Organized States on Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:56 am

Of course they should be allowed to vote. Unfortunately I doubt the US congress will get cracking on the issue.

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West Aurelia
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Postby West Aurelia » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:59 am

American territories: the only place in the entire universe where Americans cannot vote for president (NASA astronauts have voted from space).
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:00 am

Alternative idea: Only people from the 13 colonies can vote.
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Organized States
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Postby Organized States » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:02 am

West Aurelia wrote:American territories: the only place in the entire universe where Americans cannot vote for president (NASA astronauts have voted from space).

And you can vote from foreign countries if you so choose (I'm referring particularly to Japan and South Korea).

Ifreann wrote:Alternative idea: Only people from the 13 colonies can vote.

As they are the only ones who can comprehend Anglo-Saxon principles.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:05 am

Organized States wrote:
West Aurelia wrote:American territories: the only place in the entire universe where Americans cannot vote for president (NASA astronauts have voted from space).

And you can vote from foreign countries if you so choose (I'm referring particularly to Japan and South Korea).

Ifreann wrote:Alternative idea: Only people from the 13 colonies can vote.

As they are the only ones who can comprehend Anglo-Saxon principles.

Exactly.
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Shilya
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Postby Shilya » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:05 am

If the US president has power over them, they should be allowed to vote.

How is this even a question?
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:06 am

Shilya wrote:If the US president has power over them, they should be allowed to vote.

How is this even a question?

But they're alien races!
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Independent Republic of Not My Problem
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Postby Independent Republic of Not My Problem » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:11 am

We use the electoral college system, under this system each State has a number of electoral votes equal to the number of representatives and senators a State has. If we allow people in these territories to vote, then the number of electoral votes would be one, that does not count. In order to allow these people to vote for President, you would need to either revamp the electoral college, or transition to a direct election, neither of which is happening in my lifetime. A Constitutional Amendment, the 23rd, was required to grant electors to Washington DC. Before then, residents of DC were also excluded.

So should they be allowed to vote for President? Sure, but their 4.1M collective votes would mean even less then my, or your, single vote.

They should do a gut check and apply for State status, or GTFO.

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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:13 am

Ifreann wrote:Alternative idea: Only people from the 13 colonies can vote.

Not just that only those of English heritage. Not Scots-Irish, no Irish, no Welsh, no French. Just pure, heavenly English. *nod*

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:14 am

They do vote, just not in federal elections. I think a constitutional amendment would be required. How would we count their votes?
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:16 am

Ethel mermania wrote:They do vote, just not in federal elections. I think a constitutional amendment would be required. How would we count their votes?

How do you count the votes from Alaska or Hawaii?
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Organized States
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Postby Organized States » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:21 am

Independent Republic of Not My Problem wrote:We use the electoral college system, under this system each State has a number of electoral votes equal to the number of representatives and senators a State has. If we allow people in these territories to vote, then the number of electoral votes would be one, that does not count. In order to allow these people to vote for President, you would need to either revamp the electoral college, or transition to a direct election, neither of which is happening in my lifetime. A Constitutional Amendment, the 23rd, was required to grant electors to Washington DC. Before then, residents of DC were also excluded.

So should they be allowed to vote for President? Sure, but their 4.1M collective votes would mean even less then my, or your, single vote.

They should do a gut check and apply for State status, or GTFO.

They've all tried and have been ignored up in Washington.

Puerto Rico voted for it in 2012, but because their "Delegate" is non-voting, he can't introduce legislation, same with Guam, USVI, and the NMI. Guam's Governor and its Representative Madeline Bordallo, recently raised the issue in D.C. recently during a meeting with Congressional Leaders, and got ignored. There was even an an attempt recently on the Ballot and it was overwhelmingly approved.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:24 am

Ifreann wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:They do vote, just not in federal elections. I think a constitutional amendment would be required. How would we count their votes?

How do you count the votes from Alaska or Hawaii?

Via the electoral college. congressmen + 2 for each state.
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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Independent Republic of Not My Problem
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Postby Independent Republic of Not My Problem » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:28 am

Organized States wrote:
Independent Republic of Not My Problem wrote:We use the electoral college system, under this system each State has a number of electoral votes equal to the number of representatives and senators a State has. If we allow people in these territories to vote, then the number of electoral votes would be one, that does not count. In order to allow these people to vote for President, you would need to either revamp the electoral college, or transition to a direct election, neither of which is happening in my lifetime. A Constitutional Amendment, the 23rd, was required to grant electors to Washington DC. Before then, residents of DC were also excluded.

So should they be allowed to vote for President? Sure, but their 4.1M collective votes would mean even less then my, or your, single vote.

They should do a gut check and apply for State status, or GTFO.

They've all tried and have been ignored up in Washington.

Puerto Rico voted for it in 2012, but because their "Delegate" is non-voting, he can't introduce legislation, same with Guam, USVI, and the NMI. Guam's Governor and its Representative Madeline Bordallo, recently raised the issue in D.C. recently during a meeting with Congressional Leaders, and got ignored. There was even an an attempt recently on the Ballot and it was overwhelmingly approved.


Well of course Guam was ignored, the island is unstable and may flip over: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs23CjIWMgA

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:32 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Ifreann wrote:How do you count the votes from Alaska or Hawaii?

Via the electoral college. congressmen + 2 for each state.

I dare say they wouldn't mind some congress critters.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:32 am

Well, technically, all members of the voting public don't actually have a say on who gets to be President. Because the Electoral College are the ones who elect the President.

4.1 million people not eligible to vote is really nothing when you consider the 280 million or so other Americans who can't decide who becomes President either.
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Organized States
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Postby Organized States » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:34 am

Independent Republic of Not My Problem wrote:
Organized States wrote:They've all tried and have been ignored up in Washington.

Puerto Rico voted for it in 2012, but because their "Delegate" is non-voting, he can't introduce legislation, same with Guam, USVI, and the NMI. Guam's Governor and its Representative Madeline Bordallo, recently raised the issue in D.C. recently during a meeting with Congressional Leaders, and got ignored. There was even an an attempt recently on the Ballot and it was overwhelmingly approved.


Well of course Guam was ignored, the island is unstable and may flip over: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs23CjIWMgA

Alien Races and Island Flipping is the whole reason that we must deny them the vote! The weight of the full ballot boxes might make the island flip! :lol:
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

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The United Territories of Providence
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Postby The United Territories of Providence » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:39 am

In order for this to be practical, we need to roll back the electoral college. Because once they get the vote, certain states have their votes count for less in federal elections. The residents of territories need the right to vote, but so long as we have this antiquated system in place, things will be much harder than necessary.
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Postby Schiltzberg » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:40 am

They do not have to pay taxes and they get our military protection for free. Once every decade, we give them the opportunity to vote for their statehood, but they have declined it on every occasion, so it is their own choice. We allow them to have their own government and become as dependent or independent from us as they want, but we do not allow them to vote for our national leaders until they commit themselves to the United States.
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:45 am

What's this? Taxation without representation? Oh noes! Call France! Get the militia! Down with tyranny!

Really, these people should be allowed to vote. Puerto Rico should be a state. Not giving these people representation is an affront to the founding principles of the United States.
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Organized States
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Postby Organized States » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:46 am

Schiltzberg wrote:They do not have to pay taxes and they get our military protection for free. Once every decade, we give them the opportunity to vote for their statehood, but they have declined it on every occasion, so it is their own choice. We allow them to have their own government and become as dependent or independent from us as they want, but we do not allow them to vote for our national leaders until they commit themselves to the United States.

That's bullshit. They pay taxes and they have voted affirmatively for it on every occasion.

And I can tell you why, with a number of sources from a multitude of places.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

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West Aurelia
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Postby West Aurelia » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:48 am

I guess you can't vote if you live in the Palmyra Atoll either, which is an "integral part" of the US. I feel so sorry for the "4-20" scientists living there. :p
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:50 am

Schiltzberg wrote:They do not have to pay taxes and they get our military protection for free. Once every decade, we give them the opportunity to vote for their statehood, but they have declined it on every occasion, so it is their own choice. We allow them to have their own government and become as dependent or independent from us as they want, but we do not allow them to vote for our national leaders until they commit themselves to the United States.

That's the reasoning of an empire. 'They get our protection, so they will do as we please'. Spoiler alert, that never ended well.
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Postby Risottia » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:50 am

Organized States wrote:As some of you may know, John Oliver, host of Last Week Tonight, recently did a pretty damn good expose of the fact that 4.1 Million Americans cannot vote, despite holding citizenship. Some even, in American Samoa, aren't even US Citizens...
...They are Americans ...


They're colonial subjects of dependent territories of the US. Which is quite ludicrous if you think about the political and philosophical premises upon which the US were founded.
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