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US Diplomat says "EU countrie need to spend more on Defence"

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Olivaero
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Postby Olivaero » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:29 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Olivaero wrote:Well, it can provide training and ultimately proffesional skills it's certainly better to have it on a resume than nothing. Sure there are parts of the military that are money pits but even speaking as some one who is generally politically pacifistic it can be a good option if the choice is between sitting at home on the doll or actually doing something.

The dole is going to be significantly, hugely cheaper for the state.
Like, orders of magnitude. Orders, plural.

It is also soul destroying, I speak as some one who has been on it and knows a lot of people who are basically trapped in it. Not by the idea it's self but by the permanently shitty employment market which has very unfair barriers to entry.

The military, and I say this as a very pro-military person, detracts manpower and government funds from the economy. A person on the dole can re-enter the job market and contribute again.

The US military once valued the worth of a soldier at several million dollars, IIRC. A lot more than your average doley. They pay out six hundred grand if they're killed.
Each American serviceperson deployed overseas to Afghanistan was costing between $850k to $1.4mn - each.

I couldn't even imagine how it detracts money from the economy, your going to have to show me how that works. A person who goes onto the dole after being in the job market before may be able to easily re-enter yeah, a person who hasn't could be stuck in a merciless cycle of unemployment which they have less and less enthusiasm to break. Did I mention the part where it was soul destroying? Military adventurism now I can see why that would be monumentally more expensive than being on the dole but I'm not suggesting deploying large numbers of troops overseas in combat operations is a good thing.
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Sklavinia
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Postby Sklavinia » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:38 am

She's not wrong.

The military capabilities of many European powers are a joke, and just because you have the most powerful kid on the block on your side doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to defend yourself. If those whakcjobs who think Putin's trying rebuilding the Russian Empire were right (which they're not, because they're living in the past), he could quite literally steam roll over most of Europe easily if the US wasn't there to have their backs.
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Prezelly
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Postby Prezelly » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:41 am

Better safe than sorry, and with Russia becoming belligerent, the safety of Europe is becoming questionable
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Camelza
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Postby Camelza » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:36 am

Napkiraly wrote:
Camelza wrote:Ii don't know about Ireland but Greece already spends more than it's obligated to.

No it doesn't. 1.69% of GDP in 2012. And part of the requirement is that 20% of it be on things like equipment. The only member that isn't the US to do both is the UK, while France doesn't hit 2% but spends over 20% on equipment. Greece does neither.

I don't know what your sources are but I believe they're wrong.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:45 am

I'm pretty sure the 2% isn't even a "rule", "regulation" or "requirement". Or any word related thereof.
It's a recommended mark. Something that'd be nice.

Small states will be unable to make that contribution. The US sails on at double that, unabated, for having such an unfathomably large GDP.
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American California
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Postby American California » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:07 am

It's about fucking time. Now Europe can fight its own wars and does't need to keep draining our defense budget.
Last edited by American California on Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Teemant
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Postby Teemant » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:10 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm pretty sure the 2% isn't even a "rule", "regulation" or "requirement". Or any word related thereof.
It's a recommended mark. Something that'd be nice.

Small states will be unable to make that contribution. The US sails on at double that, unabated, for having such an unfathomably large GDP.


How small states can't make that contribution? Estonia for example spends 2.05% of GDP. Hopefully it will increase even more.
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Alyakia
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Postby Alyakia » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:12 am

Genivaria wrote:
Memell wrote:
Yes, the dear old "Soviet Hordes are at the gates.....buy our stuff!!" mantra.....Whatever, we know that already.

And, you know, the US need the EU more than the EU needs the US.

But wait, i'd gladly accept the EU leaving NATO and forming their own defence network.

Oh that's adorable you think you're a threat without us as you are.


Genivaria wrote:
Slakonian wrote:Yes yes I know where this is going. When US ask from Eu to spend more on defense, they actually mean we should buy guns from them because they ahve good guns(sarcasm). Those damn M113's were supposed to be new not used....

Kainesia wrote:Well unfortunately for her, the military industrial complex hasn't bought out Europe's politicians yet.

So tell me what it's like to hate the only shield you have?
Seriously I thought two World Wars would've made Europe vigilant, instead many Europeans have become complacent.


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Postby Stormwind-City » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:23 am

Teemant wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm pretty sure the 2% isn't even a "rule", "regulation" or "requirement". Or any word related thereof.
It's a recommended mark. Something that'd be nice.

Small states will be unable to make that contribution. The US sails on at double that, unabated, for having such an unfathomably large GDP.


How small states can't make that contribution? Estonia for example spends 2.05% of GDP. Hopefully it will increase even more.

Why do you want increases in military spending?
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:43 am

Teemant wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm pretty sure the 2% isn't even a "rule", "regulation" or "requirement". Or any word related thereof.
It's a recommended mark. Something that'd be nice.

Small states will be unable to make that contribution. The US sails on at double that, unabated, for having such an unfathomably large GDP.


How small states can't make that contribution? Estonia for example spends 2.05% of GDP. Hopefully it will increase even more.

How adorable.
This in no way detracts from what I said.
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Postby Atlanticatia » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:57 pm

Europe doesn't need to increase defence spending. If some European nations did, it would be outright disrespectful to their citizens since they've been forced to endure cuts to health and welfare.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:03 pm

Atlanticatia wrote:Europe doesn't need to increase defence spending. If some European nations did, it would be outright disrespectful to their citizens since they've been forced to endure cuts to health and welfare.

I think the Russians might end up a bit more "disrespectful" if they were the ones in charge after the war.
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Naisiuin
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Postby Naisiuin » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:04 pm

Atlanticatia wrote:Europe doesn't need to increase defence spending. If some European nations did, it would be outright disrespectful to their citizens since they've been forced to endure cuts to health and welfare.


A Russian bullet is a deep cut to one's healthcare
Last edited by Naisiuin on Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The balkens » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:43 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Atlanticatia wrote:Europe doesn't need to increase defence spending. If some European nations did, it would be outright disrespectful to their citizens since they've been forced to endure cuts to health and welfare.

I think the Russians might end up a bit more "disrespectful" if they were the ones in charge after the war.


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Last edited by The balkens on Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:53 pm

Naisiuin wrote:
Atlanticatia wrote:Europe doesn't need to increase defence spending. If some European nations did, it would be outright disrespectful to their citizens since they've been forced to endure cuts to health and welfare.


A Russian bullet is a deep cut to one's healthcare


That's a good one. :clap:

Indeed most people forget that the fundamental safeguard to their health and Liberty is a strong capable military.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:56 pm

Dooom35796821595 wrote:
Naisiuin wrote:
A Russian bullet is a deep cut to one's healthcare


That's a good one. :clap:

Indeed most people forget that the fundamental safeguard to their health and Liberty is a strong capable military.

It is an interesting argument.

When you're discussing military budgets and people point out how X country (usually either the US generally, or the country they live in) spends either "too much" (without qualification) or "[insert adjective here] more than Y country" where Y country is a supposed direct or strategic military threat.

And it's just... do you want to be "just about" matched on some arbitrary value which is the American dollar or the percentage GDP, or would you rather be overmatched so that your country stands a better chance in any hypothetical conflict?
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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:47 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:It is an interesting argument.

When you're discussing military budgets and people point out how X country (usually either the US generally, or the country they live in) spends either "too much" (without qualification) or "[insert adjective here] more than Y country" where Y country is a supposed direct or strategic military threat.

And it's just... do you want to be "just about" matched on some arbitrary value which is the American dollar or the percentage GDP, or would you rather be overmatched so that your country stands a better chance in any hypothetical conflict?


But it's obvious that there's a point where you're spending too much on the military. Obviously that point is going to move based on the global situation.

All guns and no butter is an unsustainable economy in the long run.

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Postby Greater Americania » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:30 am

Memell wrote:Personally, i think that what the EU/and its member states) does or does not is none of the US' business, especially regarding Defence.

As a European citizen, i am already discontent with the onerous military missions that some States have undertaken (mainly because of the declining but still noticeable American influence on them), e.g. Italy, France and the UK; i certainly would be enraged, were some EU countries to increase their military spending for military deployement in foreign countries rather than internal security (which i believe should be the primary, if not only concern).

It is also questionable how much it would be sensible to listen to Ms. Power's advice, as her strong stance regarding Gaddafi's Lybia in 2011 has led to the disastrous situation we all know (i.e. a proto-ISIS emerging and a completely out of control flow of immigrants).

(source for this: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... -s-un-pick )

What is your take, NS?


I think Europeans should stop expecting the United States to subsidize the cost of their national defense in our national budget, and start contributing meaningful troop numbers to our shared military alliance, even if it means Europeans can't spend their entire national budgets on education and healthcare.
Last edited by Greater Americania on Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby The Greater Lebanon » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:10 pm

Sklavinia wrote:She's not wrong.

The military capabilities of many European powers are a joke, and just because you have the most powerful kid on the block on your side doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to defend yourself. If those whakcjobs who think Putin's trying rebuilding the Russian Empire were right (which they're not, because they're living in the past), he could quite literally steam roll over most of Europe easily if the US wasn't there to have their backs.


I highly doubt Russia's military would "steamroll" through Europe. Germany would provide some of the stiffest resistance against a Russian invasion, combined with France and Britain and the quality of the average NATO soldier I say they would be stopped in Central Europe. Im pretty sure people in the occupied eastern countries would conduct lethal insurgencies over a wide area that Russia's military forces would have occupy and sit in.

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Postby Teemant » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:23 pm

Stormwind-City wrote:
Teemant wrote:
How small states can't make that contribution? Estonia for example spends 2.05% of GDP. Hopefully it will increase even more.

Why do you want increases in military spending?


To be safe from foreign threats.
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Postby Teemant » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:24 pm

The Greater Lebanon wrote:
Sklavinia wrote:She's not wrong.

The military capabilities of many European powers are a joke, and just because you have the most powerful kid on the block on your side doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to defend yourself. If those whakcjobs who think Putin's trying rebuilding the Russian Empire were right (which they're not, because they're living in the past), he could quite literally steam roll over most of Europe easily if the US wasn't there to have their backs.


I highly doubt Russia's military would "steamroll" through Europe. Germany would provide some of the stiffest resistance against a Russian invasion, combined with France and Britain and the quality of the average NATO soldier I say they would be stopped in Central Europe. Im pretty sure people in the occupied eastern countries would conduct lethal insurgencies over a wide area that Russia's military forces would have occupy and sit in.


US units in Germany would provide resistance against Russian invasion. Germany has only like 200 tanks and 40 Eurofighter jets in operational condition. Whole European defence relies on USA.
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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:35 pm

The Greater Lebanon wrote:I highly doubt Russia's military would "steamroll" through Europe. Germany would provide some of the stiffest resistance against a Russian invasion, combined with France and Britain and the quality of the average NATO soldier I say they would be stopped in Central Europe. Im pretty sure people in the occupied eastern countries would conduct lethal insurgencies over a wide area that Russia's military forces would have occupy and sit in.

Germany's military is a joke. The 'stiffest resistance' in mainland Europe would likely come from France. At best Germany is a middling speedbump.
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Postby The Greater Lebanon » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Teemant wrote:
The Greater Lebanon wrote:
I highly doubt Russia's military would "steamroll" through Europe. Germany would provide some of the stiffest resistance against a Russian invasion, combined with France and Britain and the quality of the average NATO soldier I say they would be stopped in Central Europe. Im pretty sure people in the occupied eastern countries would conduct lethal insurgencies over a wide area that Russia's military forces would have occupy and sit in.


US units in Germany would provide resistance against Russian invasion. Germany has only like 200 tanks and 40 Eurofighter jets in operational condition. Whole European defence relies on USA.


Russia's logistical culture and capabilities make me think that it would be nearly impossible to support a full scale invasion of Europe from Scandinavia to the Black Sea...it just can't happen. European countries would already arm themselves further than the current situation is. Their combined technologies and manpower would halt and reverse Russia. I honestly think that Russian soldiers are not on the same level as European, American, Israeli, even South Korean Australian or other pro-US armies.

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Teemant
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Postby Teemant » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:44 pm

The Greater Lebanon wrote:
Teemant wrote:
US units in Germany would provide resistance against Russian invasion. Germany has only like 200 tanks and 40 Eurofighter jets in operational condition. Whole European defence relies on USA.


Russia's logistical culture and capabilities make me think that it would be nearly impossible to support a full scale invasion of Europe from Scandinavia to the Black Sea...it just can't happen. European countries would already arm themselves further than the current situation is. Their combined technologies and manpower would halt and reverse Russia. I honestly think that Russian soldiers are not on the same level as European, American, Israeli, even South Korean Australian or other pro-US armies.


Russia has made some improvements in the last years so I'm not so sure how capable they are but it doesn't change the fact that European countries must spend more on defense than they are currently doing. Together Europe would be strong I belive but even now Europe's military budget (combined) is getting smaller.
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Postby Free Sahara » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:01 pm

The defense spending of NATO is already on ridiculously low levels. Some countries, like my country, Finland, should double their defense budget. There's no way Europe can protect themselves at these low levels. Our militaries are a joke and Russia is trying to take an advantage over Europe's weaknesses and there are other growing threats, like ISIS as mentioned in the OP.

I agree that 2% of the GDP should be the absolute minimum of a country's defense budget.
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