Is Islam the new communism?

[Tsaraine]

So if the Wahhabists are the equivalent of the early Protestants, does that make the War on Terror like the Thirty Years' War? And how long before we get to the Islamic Enlightenment? Can we possibly fast-forward through the bits about burning heretics alive?

[Constantinopolis]

So if the Wahhabists are the equivalent of the early Protestants, does that make the War on Terror like the Thirty Years' War? And how long before we get to the Islamic Enlightenment? Can we possibly fast-forward through the bits about burning heretics alive?

Too late to fast forward. I'm pretty sure we're already seeing that part as we speak.

And the equivalent of the Thirty Years' War would have to be some terrible civil war in the Middle East that lasts seemingly forever and is so bad that it depopulates the region...

Well, shit.

[The Archregimancy]

So if the Wahhabists are the equivalent of the early Protestants, does that make the War on Terror like the Thirty Years' War? And how long before we get to the Islamic Enlightenment? Can we possibly fast-forward through the bits about burning heretics alive?

Too late to fast forward. I'm pretty sure we're already seeing that part as we speak.

And the equivalent of the Thirty Years' War would have to be some terrible civil war in the Middle East that lasts seemingly forever and is so bad that it depopulates the region...

Well, shit.

That was implicit in my earlier post; I'm pleased that a couple of people picked up on that.

And in terms of burning heretics alive.... well; recent evidence suggests it's a bit too late for missing that bit, too.

[Napkiraly]

So if the Wahhabists are the equivalent of the early Protestants, does that make the War on Terror like the Thirty Years' War? And how long before we get to the Islamic Enlightenment? Can we possibly fast-forward through the bits about burning heretics alive?

Too late to fast forward. I'm pretty sure we're already seeing that part as we speak.

And the equivalent of the Thirty Years' War would have to be some terrible civil war in the Middle East that lasts seemingly forever and is so bad that it depopulates the region...

Well, shit.

What about Wars of the Three Kingdoms?

[The Archregimancy]

Too late to fast forward. I'm pretty sure we're already seeing that part as we speak.

And the equivalent of the Thirty Years' War would have to be some terrible civil war in the Middle East that lasts seemingly forever and is so bad that it depopulates the region...

Well, shit.

What about Wars of the Three Kingdoms?

Given the almost total overlap of date between the Thirty Years War and the 'Wars of the Three Kingdoms', I'm not sure making a distinction there is wholly useful in this analogy.

But if you must have one, Iraq consists of a region with strong - albeit often competing - historical associations between its component units, and struggling to form a single sense of national unity between the three primary groups of Sunni, Shia, and Kurds.

I think that this analogy also forces me to argue that the Yazidis or Nestorians are like the Welsh; and maybe the Manadeans are Cornish (or Manx?)

I stress I'm far more tongue in cheek there than with my earlier analogy, which was intended wholly seriously.

[Stormwrath]

I'd say no. Islam is different from Communism in certain aspects. However, the US is treating Islam negatively today just as they hated Communism during the Cold War. It won't be surprising if there will be a Green Scare in the US (if green doesn't refer to the environment anymore).

[Narland]

I'd say no. Islam is different from Communism in certain aspects. However, the US is treating Islam negatively today just as they hated Communism during the Cold War. It won't be surprising if there will be a Green Scare in the US (if green doesn't refer to the environment anymore).

But green is still the color of our money...

There is a pronounced effort by the leadership in both parties to differentiate between Jack-Muslims (to borrow a Utah phrase) and Radical Muslims with a partial truth. The culture of Islam is incongruent with the concepts of individual Liberty, and freedom of conscience but is not necessarily hostile to them. The religion of Islam on the other hand when taken seriously is intractably hostile to them. That we can have one without the other is impossible. Radical is what the Quran and Muhammed have called Islam to be. In order to remove it, one must countermand the teachings of the unabrogated parts of the Quran and the words & deeds of Muhammed--a fatal proposition.

Yes, the Power Brokers need a boogey-man to cower the masses into giving up their Liberties and feed its War Machine. and green is the new red.

[Esternial]

I don't think so.
Communism was at least supported by a part of the western world, expecially in Europe.
It was a part of the western political tradition and culture.
Moreover, capitalism and communism have the same ideological roots: the Enlightment.

Islam, instead is completely opposed to western way of life and thought.
It's a different way of view of the world.
Both capitalists and communists hate Islam because they know it would shut down all the lies upon which the western civilisation has been build.

Have you been living under a rock?

Islam culture, while - yes - being absolutely nerfed time and time again by the radical wackjobs over in their cosy Caliphate, is slowly but surely integrating itself in western society, at least in Europe.

I'd love to see it accepted and properly fused with Western culture, but - again - thank the Caliphate for that, which simply doesn't give a fuck about anyone else but themselves.

[Independent State AF]

Oh, and make sure you can explain how you picked them. I bet you're not going to include things like absolute monarchy, anti-semitism, imperialism, or enslaving black people, despite the fact that these were all major parts of European politics for hundreds of years, so I expect a good explanation for why your list includes only the good things about the West and not the bad things.

Can do!

Glorious Imperialistic Expansion, because fuck you we do what we want!
Ambiguous conflicts over civil rights, because we never agree!
LBGTQ-SGRHGF - issues because you have to live YOUR life MY way!
Super-Overdependence on foreign and sandy countries oil deposits so they can scrounge every last penny from us!
MURICA' CAUSE MURICA'
Super inefficient democracies that tend to get nothing down while they squabble over party politics.
Aaannnd the occasional civil rights passage or national tragedy.
Mmmm...anything else?


Also, if anyone sees this as anything but a sarcastic joke, then you are trying way to hard, and in the words of the Joker "Why so serious?"

[Bojikami]

Well the west does need something to aim it's rifles at. Lest they turn on themselves.

[Zakuvia]

I'd say it's different in this case. Rational Islam and western capitalism can live together without issue. Communism holds capitalism in contempt by definition. Apart from that, they're not too terribly dissimilar. Communist extremists have an equivalent bodycount to Islamists, ala Khmer Rouge.

[United Russian Soviet States]

I mean that Islamic extremism is the new Nazism.

Hardly. Ignoring the fact that you are identify Islamism, Jihadism, and the Islamic faith as one in the same, they have little in common. One was inspired by the revanchism of what was formally the greatest land power in Europe that cumulated in mass-scapegoating through fascist and social darwinist rhetoric. The other is a response of former colonial states to centuries of imperialism at the hands of powerful states that found it's ideological rhetoric through fundamentalist and jihadist authors of the late 19th and early 20th centuries that is finally granted an armed presence through the same imperialist forces that in an outstandingly ironic move end up backing them to defeat nationalist forces as well as competing imperialist powers. These are ideologies with completely different histories and messages.

I don't think the Islamic faith and radical jihad are the same. I have read of Muslims condemning radical jihad.

[Coccygia]

The idea that "Islam is the New Communism" is naive in the extreme. The threat is quite real. The threat of communism was pretty real too. And BTW "Islam" per se is not the problem. It's Islamic extremism in all its forms (and not just terrorism).

[Ardoki]

Fundamentalist Islam, is very similar to fascism. As a previous poster already mentioned.

Both wish to remake the glories of the past, to create a better country. The Italians looked toward the Roman Empire, the Nazis towards the Germanic tribes, and the Fundamentalists toward the Islamic Caliphates.

[Earl of Sandwich IV]

Fundamentalist Islam, is very similar to fascism. As a previous poster already mentioned.

Both wish to remake the glories of the past, to create a better country. The Italians looked toward the Roman Empire, the Nazis towards the Germanic tribes, and the Fundamentalists toward the Islamic Caliphates.

Actually Islam as a whole is very similar to fascism.The 'fundamentalist' qualifier is just an attempt to be politically correct.

[Karooney]

Collectivist, totalitarian, violent and dogmatic? I'd say so!

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Fundamentalist Islam, is very similar to fascism. As a previous poster already mentioned.

Both wish to remake the glories of the past, to create a better country. The Italians looked toward the Roman Empire, the Nazis towards the Germanic tribes, and the Fundamentalists toward the Islamic Caliphates.

Actually Islam as a whole is very similar to fascism.The 'fundamentalist' qualifier is just an attempt to be politically correct.

Wrong.

[Dain II Ironfoot]

If this would be the case, i'd be Muslim.

Anyhow, the problem isn't the Islam, it are the Wahabbi's who support violence. Now looking that the US is allied to the biggest Wahabbit countries (Saudi-Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain) i can't say its the same as Communism.

[Talvezout]

The more radical sections of Islam (Wahhabism, for example) get pretty close to that level. Other forms, not so much. There was a Islamic Communist state once upon a time though.

[Tucker Clark]

Well, remembering back to the cold war, The chinese went into villages and killing and burning priests, and in 2015 ISIL is going into villages in iraq and syria, and even Lybia, they are killing christians for believing something. much like the Chinese, North vietnam, Ect.

[Dain II Ironfoot]

Well, remembering back to the cold war, The chinese went into villages and killing and burning priests, and in 2015 ISIL is going into villages in iraq and syria, and even Lybia, they are killing christians for believing something. much like the Chinese, North vietnam, Ect.

Difference is, IS kills more Muslims then people from other religion. The Majority of those fighting IS are Muslims aswell, so you can't say that IS would represent Islam in any possible way or form.

[Tahar Joblis]

Islam culture, while - yes - being absolutely nerfed time and time again by the radical wackjobs over in their cosy Caliphate, is slowly but surely integrating itself in western society, at least in Europe.

Let me give you a weird fact to chew on:

Among some European Muslim immigrant populations, women become more observant of Islamic dress codes (and observe more conservative versions!) than they were back in their home countries.

There's a fascinating explanation for it that I'll endorse: In a heterogeneous society, veiling signifies group membership quite strongly, and there are tangible benefits from being able to signal your group identification.

It is not clear to me in the long run that is the case either that:

(A) "Islamic culture is slowly but surely integrating itself in western society."
(B) "Islamic culture is not integrating itself into western society."

That is to say, I'm not sure. There seem to be populations that are Westernizing, but there also seems to be a degree to which "Islamic culture" is tied to deliberate differentiation from "Western culture."

Well, remembering back to the cold war, The chinese went into villages and killing and burning priests, and in 2015 ISIL is going into villages in iraq and syria, and even Lybia, they are killing christians for believing something. much like the Chinese, North vietnam, Ect.

Difference is, IS kills more Muslims then people from other religion. The Majority of those fighting IS are Muslims aswell, so you can't say that IS would represent Islam in any possible way or form.

This is not precisely a difference between the Islamic State and other various "bad" state actors / ideological actors. The bloodiest part of many revolutions have often been the internal purges; the most horrific acts of genocide, ones perpetrated against a state's own citizens.

Even the revolutionaries of the French Revolution killed more fellow revolutionaries than actual nobles...

[Esternial]

Islam culture, while - yes - being absolutely nerfed time and time again by the radical wackjobs over in their cosy Caliphate, is slowly but surely integrating itself in western society, at least in Europe.

Let me give you a weird fact to chew on:

Among some European Muslim immigrant populations, women become more observant of Islamic dress codes (and observe more conservative versions!) than they were back in their home countries.

There's a fascinating explanation for it that I'll endorse: In a heterogeneous society, veiling signifies group membership quite strongly, and there are tangible benefits from being able to signal your group identification.

It is not clear to me in the long run that is the case either that:

(A) "Islamic culture is slowly but surely integrating itself in western society."
(B) "Islamic culture is not integrating itself into western society."

That is to say, I'm not sure. There seem to be populations that are Westernizing, but there also seems to be a degree to which "Islamic culture" is tied to deliberate differentiation from "Western culture."

I think that wholly depends on how you interpret "integration".

To me, that means Islam will become a part of Western society and - to an extent - adapt to it, but still retain its own individualistic properties. Integrating =/= Westernizing. To some extent, yes, but Western society must adapt to some extent as well in order to make these people feel like they belong in the West. "Mixing" would probably be a better word for it; unfortunately many people are against that, primarily driven by fear or lack of understanding the true extent of the Islam faith.

Veiling is a personal choice and doesn't significantly impact other people aside from their xenophobia. Only problem is that radical groups are causing a negative connotation to be associated with the practise.

[Quintium]

Islam culture, while - yes - being absolutely nerfed time and time again by the radical wackjobs over in their cosy Caliphate, is slowly but surely integrating itself in western society, at least in Europe.

That's the polar opposite of the truth. Muslims, especially young Muslims who were born in Europe, are deviating more from the values that we hold. The first generation of Muslim immigrants in Europe (we're talking late 1950s, early 1960s) wasn't really a problem at all. They were a bit superstitious and would pray a lot, but they never really bothered anyone. But then, as the Muslim population in Europe started to grow rather rapidly through free immigration (as opposed to labour-only migration) and family reunification, Muslims started - as Tahar Joblis rightly pointed out - to put more and more emphasis on their own identity. Compared to the Muslim populations we had fifty years ago, the Muslim populations we have today (and especially those under the age of thirty) are very much obsessed with their religion. I'll give you some sources to drive this point home.

According to the WZB, the Berlin Social Science Center, which studied the opinions of thousands of Muslims in six countries:
[*]29.9% of Muslims in Germany are considered fundamentalist;
[*]52.3% of Muslims in France are considered fundamentalist;
[*]44.6% of Muslims in the Netherlands are considered fundamentalist;
[*]52.5% of Muslims in Belgium are considered fundamentalist;
[*]55.2% of Muslims in Austria are considered fundamentalist;
[*]30.8% of Muslims in Sweden are considered fundamentalist;
[*]In a Christian control group, no Christian group in any of those countries had more than 5% fundamentalists.

It is often repeated that Muslim in Britain feel loyal to Britain. But, an ICM opinion poll that found this also found that:
[*]Around 40% of Muslims in Britain want to introduce parts of islamic law or full islamic law to Britain.
[*]Around 20% felt sympathy for the "feelings and motives" of the 7/7 bombers.

A poll held in Belgium on behalf of the Gazet of Antwerpen found that:
[*]16% of young Muslim men in Belgium thought terrorism was acceptable.
[*]25% has already heard an imam preach intolerance of or alienation from the infidels.

Another poll held in Britain, in the wake of the 7/7 bombings, showed that:
[*]38% of Muslims believed that radical foreign Muslim clerics should be allowed to settle in Britain.
[*]5% said more terrorist attacks would be justified.

According to Civitas, in a study about Muslims in the UK:
[*]42% of Muslims over 55 thought a Muslim woman should never marry a non-Muslim man. 56% of Muslims aged 16-24 thought this.
[*]33% of Muslims over 55 thought a Muslim woman should not marry without the consent of her guardian. 57% of Muslims aged 16-24 thought this.
[*]18% of Muslims over 55 thought Muslim men could have up to four wives, but Muslim women could have only one husband. 52% of Muslims aged 16-24 thought this.
[*]19% of Muslims over 55 thought that apostasy from Islam was forbidden and punishable by death. 36% of Muslims aged 16-24 thought this.
[*]50% of Muslims over 55 thought that homosexuality was wrong and should be illegal. 71% of Muslims aged 16-24 thought this.
When asked, in the same study, whether they supported initiatives to 'reform' Islam to fit in with western, secular society, similar to what has happened to Christianity:
[*]57% of Muslims over 55 thought that it was a good idea. 37% of Muslims aged 16-24 thought that it was a good idea.

So, where's the integration? Frankly, I don't feel like 'finding a compromise' with people who hold wicked, superstitious views like those.

[Slovenya]

Actually Islam as a whole is very similar to fascism.The 'fundamentalist' qualifier is just an attempt to be politically correct.

you must be thinking of Zionism