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Portugal to naturalize descendants of Sephardic Jews

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:26 pm
by Romalae
Source: BBC News

Nobody expects the…Portuguese…Inquisition.
The Portuguese Cabinet has approved rules under which descendants of Jews expelled from Portugal more than 500 years ago can claim citizenship.

Many Sephardic Jews were killed, forced to convert to Christianity or leave at the end of the 15th Century.

Parliament paved the way for a change in citizenship laws two years ago, but the move needed Cabinet approval.

From now on, descendants of Sephardic Jews who can prove a strong link to Portugal can apply for a passport.

Proof can be brought, the government says, through a combination of surname, language spoken in the family or evidence of direct descent.

Ancient Presence

Thousands of Sephardic Jews were forced off the Iberian peninsula, first from Spain and then from Portugal.

Some of those who fled to other parts of Europe or to America continued to speak a form of Portuguese in their new communities.

The Portuguese government acknowledges that Jews lived in the region long before the Portuguese kingdom was founded in the 12th Century.

"There is no possibility to amend what was done," says Portuguese Justice Minister Paula Teixera da Cruz, adding that the law change was "an attribution of a right".

Portugal's Jewish community which once numbered in the tens of thousands has shrunk to just 1,000 - most of them Ashkenazim with roots in Eastern Europe.

Neighbouring Spain is still debating a similar law to address its treatment of Jews in the past.


Very interesting article from the BBC about how the Portuguese cabinet just recently approved a law passed a couple years back by the parliament regarding the resettlement of the descendants of the Sephardic Jews who were expelled forcefully from Portugal in the 1490s. Back then, the Portuguese followed suit after Spain began its infamous Inquisition, and established its own Inquisition in the 1500s. Now, it seems like the Portuguese government is trying to make amends for this and right the wrongs of the past.

What do you think about this action? Is it the right thing to do? Does it make sense? Why do you think this came up at all? Will it ultimately be ineffectual/ignored?


Personally, I support this right-of-return policy, but I have my doubts that it will actually lead to much of an influx of descendants of the Portuguese Sephardim. My guess is the real reason Portugal did this was for a good image and maybe to assuage some collective guilt. The descendants of the Portuguese Sephardic Jews have long been resettled and integrated into other countries and communities, notably Israel (of course) and France and the USA. Not to mention, I'm sure it won't be particularly easy to prove lineage since it's been 500 years and it's hard to document.

That said, though, there are now over two million Sephardic Jews, and the identity has really developed and continued on its own set of laws and practices. So I suppose that some would be interested in returning to their ancestral homeland if possible, and reestablishing a community there in the spirit of their ancestors, just like with Israel in the 1900s. But since Israel has already kinda monopolized the Jewish right-of-return idea, I can hardly imagine seeing any similar kind of immigration influx. It's probably just for extended justice and a good image.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:35 pm
by Napkiraly
Don't know how many would/will take it up, but it's a nice gesture to atone for what happened.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:36 pm
by Romalae
Napkiraly wrote:Don't know how many would/will take it up, but it's a nice gesture to atone for what happened.

Agreed. Better late than never, right?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:37 pm
by Benuty
http://www.timesofisrael.com/spanish-la ... aningless/

Spain still beat them, hilarious though.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:38 pm
by Benuty
Romalae wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Don't know how many would/will take it up, but it's a nice gesture to atone for what happened.

Agreed. Better late than never, right?

Most definitely.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:57 pm
by Confederate Ramenia
Playing devil's advocate here, the Sephardic Jews should not be naturalized. They are not the victims of persecution, they are merely their descendants. They have grown up outside of Portugal, outside of Portuguese culture and thus cannot be called Portuguese.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:58 pm
by Benuty
Confederate Ramenia wrote:Playing devil's advocate here, the Sephardic Jews should not be naturalized. They are not the victims of persecution, they are merely their descendants. They have grown up outside of Portugal, outside of Portuguese culture and thus cannot be called Portuguese.

Well not necessarily.

I mean Stalin exiled the Crimean Tatars yet the Ukraine allowed them to return along with their descendants.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:05 pm
by Mike the Progressive
Romalae wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Don't know how many would/will take it up, but it's a nice gesture to atone for what happened.

Agreed. Better late than never, right?


Yep. ^This

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:06 pm
by Nanatsu no Tsuki
Spain's been doing that for a few years. It recently published the newest list of last names considered Jewish and that could make many people eligible for naturalization.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:16 pm
by Napkiraly
Romalae wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Don't know how many would/will take it up, but it's a nice gesture to atone for what happened.

Agreed. Better late than never, right?

Quite.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:17 pm
by Atlanticatia
I think it's a good gesture, especially with rising antisemitism in Europe. It is a very nice thing to do.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:18 pm
by Edgy Opinions
1. Because Spain did it first

2. Because the Portuguese population is shrinking fast, there are many millions of Portuguese people who live overseas (more than 1 million in Brazil alone), and of the 10 million living in the country, the number might reduce 10-20% in number in 50 years.

Lusophone countries bar Angola, Mozambique and IIRC Timor-Leste (none of these veeeeery Lusophone) are notorious for their usually low childbirth rate in comparison to their neighbors, with Portuguese women being right now the least fertile in the whole European Union. The 2010s are seeing less than half of yearly childbirths in comparison to the 1970s.

It will be hit first and fast by the graying of Europe, with its terrible economic effects. Giving how their life standards are compared to the more peripheral countries of Central Europe and this century will see lots of instability due to environmental problems around the world, this might mean lots of bad things.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:19 pm
by Romalae
Confederate Ramenia wrote:Playing devil's advocate here, the Sephardic Jews should not be naturalized. They are not the victims of persecution, they are merely their descendants. They have grown up outside of Portugal, outside of Portuguese culture and thus cannot be called Portuguese.

I just don't see what the problem is, if the host nation is willing to take them back in. It seems like a mutualistic venture.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:21 pm
by Edgy Opinions
Romalae wrote:I just don't see what the problem is, if the host nation is willing to take them back in. It seems like a mutualistic venture.

The truth is, Portugal is among the countries that most need immigration. Attitudes against their coming are desperate xenophobic bullshit that shouldn't be listened to.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:23 pm
by Sebastianbourg
It seems to me that this is merely symbolic. How are you supposed to prove you are descended from the original Sephardic Jews expelled from the Iberian peninsula?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:27 pm
by Edgy Opinions
Sebastianbourg wrote:It seems to me that this is merely symbolic. How are you supposed to prove you are descended from the original Sephardic Jews expelled from the Iberian peninsula?

I think surnames might help.

But indeed, it's very rare to be sure, unless you have documents or has recent decent from a Sephardic community. (Even then, how can you distinguish Portuguese from Spanish?)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:28 pm
by Confederate Ramenia
Sebastianbourg wrote:It seems to me that this is merely symbolic. How are you supposed to prove you are descended from the original Sephardic Jews expelled from the Iberian peninsula?

Portuguese-Jewish genetics magic.
Edgy Opinions wrote:
Romalae wrote:I just don't see what the problem is, if the host nation is willing to take them back in. It seems like a mutualistic venture.

The truth is, Portugal is among the countries that most need immigration. Attitudes against their coming are desperate xenophobic bullshit that shouldn't be listened to.

Though I agree with Portugal's actions, please share this "xenophobic bullshit" to further the debate.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:28 pm
by Mike the Progressive
Edgy Opinions wrote:
Sebastianbourg wrote:It seems to me that this is merely symbolic. How are you supposed to prove you are descended from the original Sephardic Jews expelled from the Iberian peninsula?

I think surnames might help.

But indeed, it's very rare to be sure, unless you have documents or has recent decent from a Sephardic community. (Even then, how can you distinguish Portuguese from Spanish?)


Oh really...

"Hello, my name is Michael Goldbergheimeinstein, and I would like my Portuguese citizenship and money."

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:28 pm
by Romalae
Sebastianbourg wrote:It seems to me that this is merely symbolic. How are you supposed to prove you are descended from the original Sephardic Jews expelled from the Iberian peninsula?

My guess is cultural vestiges like the Judaeo-Spanish language, and perhaps some badass genealogists.

Edgy Opinions wrote:
Romalae wrote:I just don't see what the problem is, if the host nation is willing to take them back in. It seems like a mutualistic venture.

The truth is, Portugal is among the countries that most need immigration. Attitudes against their coming are desperate xenophobic bullshit that shouldn't be listened to.

That makes sense, given your first post. The birthrate is declining without a doubt, although I believe there is still slight population growth from the net migration rate.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:29 pm
by Empire of Narnia
That's good. It will help atone for what happened.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:31 pm
by Sebastianbourg
Mike the Progressive wrote:
Edgy Opinions wrote:I think surnames might help.

But indeed, it's very rare to be sure, unless you have documents or has recent decent from a Sephardic community. (Even then, how can you distinguish Portuguese from Spanish?)


Oh really...

"Hello, my name is Michael Goldbergheimeinstein, and I would like my Portuguese citizenship and money."

That's not a Sephardic surname.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:32 pm
by Napkiraly
Sebastianbourg wrote:It seems to me that this is merely symbolic. How are you supposed to prove you are descended from the original Sephardic Jews expelled from the Iberian peninsula?

Surnames generally iirc. Certain surnames are more prevalent or exclusive to the Sephardic community iirc.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:33 pm
by Edgy Opinions
Mike the Progressive wrote:
Edgy Opinions wrote:I think surnames might help.

But indeed, it's very rare to be sure, unless you have documents or has recent decent from a Sephardic community. (Even then, how can you distinguish Portuguese from Spanish?)

Oh really...

"Hello, my name is Michael Goldbergheimeinstein Abravanel, and I would like my Portuguese citizenship and money want to be renamed Saulo Santos and start a television conglomerate, I'm going to start by selling bauble on the streets."

Fixed.
Confederate Ramenia wrote:Though I agree with Portugal's actions, please share this "xenophobic bullshit" to further the debate.

Portuguese nationalist sites are all "bawwwwwww, keep accepting immigrants from Africa and they act just like Roma in other EU countries and harm our reputation by doing so!" *ethnic Cape Verdean youth pickpocket people in Switzerland and local media refers to them by their citizenship, that is Portuguese* "The horror, the horror!"

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:34 pm
by Atlanticatia
There are ancestry tests than analyze your DNA and tell what regions and ethnic groups you descend from. So they could use that.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:34 pm
by Sebastianbourg
Napkiraly wrote:
Sebastianbourg wrote:It seems to me that this is merely symbolic. How are you supposed to prove you are descended from the original Sephardic Jews expelled from the Iberian peninsula?

Surnames generally iirc. Certain surnames are more prevalent or exclusive to the Sephardic community iirc.

If I recall correctly, the list of Spanish-Sephardic surnames included very popular surnames. Even Rodríguez and Goméz were included and unless you're Basque or Catalan these are very common surnames.