Abortion: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Luminesa]

This tends to be a touchy topic, but I'm curious.

What is your stance on abortion?

In case you're interested, I personally do not support abortion, with the exception of circumstances where the pregnant individual was impregnated as a result of rape, or the pregnancy could endanger their life. In such circumstances, I believe that it's not fair to force the person to go through with the pregnancy, since it was either not incurred willingly or it could threaten their life. I believe that otherwise, it's the person's responsibility to their unborn child to, at the very least, give birth to them. The individual had sex willingly, and knew that pregnancy could be a result. Thus, killing the fetus, in my opinion, is highly irresponsible.

But, hey, that's just me. What do you think?

Hi, Sancti! I love your name, by the way. It's quite pretty.

Usually the amount of people who abort in cases of rape or because of the "mother's health" is very low. People usually abort for other reasons, such as not having enough money, being scared of being abandoned by family, friends, boyfriends, etc.

Indeed, killing the fetus is irresponsible. It doesn't fix anything. That being said, how is killing a baby who was conceived in rape responsible?

I dunno if I'm just overthinking the name or anything, but I've seen the name 'Sanctissima' before. Would you happen to be Catholic?

[Mavorpen]

The capability to experience things is what I'm talking about.

And we're discussing the presence or absence of a thing, not scale. A person experiences, a rock does not.

A fetus can experience things. It has a heartbeat pretty early, it can dream, it can suck its thumb, it can swim around in the womb, it can hear its mother's voice (to some degree), it can eat, and it can experience contentment or fear. Of course, I'm putting all these things down in random order, rather than in the order in which the fetus develops all these abilities, but you get the picture. A fetus can experience things. Thus, it is not a rock, which...as we both know...just sits there.

It can't experience a single one of these things. Fetuses don't develop any sort of consciousness until the 30th week at the earliest, and even then it isn't as conscious as a newborn.

[Lost heros]

I'm pro-choice. It's the woman's body, she is a autonomous human being, she can do whatever the hell she want's to do with her body.

By definition, the fetus isn't her body, genetically it's only 50% hers.

No shit sherlock. It's still, without consent, using the women's body.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm pro-choice. It's the woman's body, she is a autonomous human being, she can do whatever the hell she want's to do with her body.

By definition, the fetus isn't her body, genetically it's only 50% hers.

Yes, and it is inside her body, which she can reject to carry at any time.

[Neutraligon]

This tends to be a touchy topic, but I'm curious.

What is your stance on abortion?

In case you're interested, I personally do not support abortion, with the exception of circumstances where the pregnant individual was impregnated as a result of rape, or the pregnancy could endanger their life. In such circumstances, I believe that it's not fair to force the person to go through with the pregnancy, since it was either not incurred willingly or it could threaten their life. I believe that otherwise, it's the person's responsibility to their unborn child to, at the very least, give birth to them. The individual had sex willingly, and knew that pregnancy could be a result. Thus, killing the fetus, in my opinion, is highly irresponsible.

But, hey, that's just me. What do you think?

Hi, Sancti! I love your name, by the way. It's quite pretty.

Usually the amount of people who abort in cases of rape or because of the "mother's health" is very low. People usually abort for other reasons, such as not having enough money, being scared of being abandoned by family, friends, boyfriends, etc.

Indeed, killing the fetus is irresponsible. It doesn't fix anything. That being said, how is killing a baby who was conceived in rape responsible?

I dunno if I'm just overthinking the name or anything, but I've seen the name 'Sanctissima' before. Would you happen to be Catholic?

How is terminating a pregnancy (abortion) irresponsible?

[MERIZoC]

This tends to be a touchy topic, but I'm curious.

What is your stance on abortion?

In case you're interested, I personally do not support abortion, with the exception of circumstances where the pregnant individual was impregnated as a result of rape, or the pregnancy could endanger their life. In such circumstances, I believe that it's not fair to force the person to go through with the pregnancy, since it was either not incurred willingly or it could threaten their life. I believe that otherwise, it's the person's responsibility to their unborn child to, at the very least, give birth to them. The individual had sex willingly, and knew that pregnancy could be a result. Thus, killing the fetus, in my opinion, is highly irresponsible.

But, hey, that's just me. What do you think?

Usually the amount of people who abort in cases of rape or because of the "mother's health" is very low. People usually abort for other reasons, such as not having enough money, being scared of being abandoned by family, friends, boyfriends, etc.

Indeed, killing the fetus is irresponsible. It doesn't fix anything. That being said, how is killing a baby who was conceived in rape responsible?

What's irresponsible? What do you think it doesn't fix?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

By definition, the fetus isn't her body, genetically it's only 50% hers.

No shit sherlock. It's still, without consent, using the women's body.

Your mileage may vary on that one.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

See, the problem with your line of thought is that you are comparing "it is the woman's choice and she can ignore your opinion" to "only women can make policy affecting other women".

One is true, the other isn't. Legislators and policy makers are not strictly separated by gender. Usually though, a man or a woman can have an idea that benefits the opposite sex by virtue of being educated about the issue at hand and talking to the opposite sex rather than just assuming what the opposite sex thinks.

...This makes more sense than my current perception of the situation. Thanks.

No problem.

Trust me, after living with a misogynistic grandmother it becomes easier to understand not all women are actually concerned about the best interest of fellow women.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

So are you talking about, like, when a woman has a miscarriage?

As far as the procedure itself goes, abortion usually involves the ending of a pregnancy by killing a human baby. But if you're talking about a miscarriage, that's different, because the baby is already dead.

Your ability to misuse these terms astounds me.

In both a miscarriage and an abortion, the pregnancy ends and the fetus usually dies.

Here's the common analogy: Let's say you wake up after a horrible car accident to find yourself sharing a hospital bed with a famous music composer. This composer's kidneys and liver have been destroyed in the accident, and in a quick hack job to keep him alive the paramedics attached tubes from your body to his. You are filtering his blood through your kidneys and liver, and he needs you to do this to live. He's going to need this for nine months, when donor organs will be made available to him.

Should you be compelled by the state to go through with this?

[Lost heros]

No shit sherlock. It's still, without consent, using the women's body.

Your mileage may vary on that one.

If you're referring to without consent bit, I generally operate under the assumption that we are referring to abortion-seeking women.

[Luminesa]

A fetus can experience things. It has a heartbeat pretty early, it can dream, it can suck its thumb, it can swim around in the womb, it can hear its mother's voice (to some degree), it can eat, and it can experience contentment or fear. Of course, I'm putting all these things down in random order, rather than in the order in which the fetus develops all these abilities, but you get the picture. A fetus can experience things. Thus, it is not a rock, which...as we both know...just sits there.

Provide a source that says it can dream. Provide a source that those motions are anything other than reflexes. Source that it can hear the mothers voice. Source that it can eat. Source that ic can experience contentment or fear.

Whoa! One at a time! Okay...(This is what I get for debating online when I should be doing Spanish homework...)

Okay, here you go:
http://www.pregnancy.org/article/overvi ... evelopment

This is an overview. Tell me if I left anything out.

[Farnhamia]

So are you talking about, like, when a woman has a miscarriage?

As far as the procedure itself goes, abortion usually involves the ending of a pregnancy by killing a human baby. But if you're talking about a miscarriage, that's different, because the baby is already dead.

Your ability to misuse these terms astounds me.

In both a miscarriage and an abortion, the pregnancy ends and the fetus usually dies.

Here's the common analogy: Let's say you wake up after a horrible car accident to find yourself sharing a hospital bed with a famous music composer. This composer's kidneys and liver have been destroyed in the accident, and in a quick hack job to keep him alive the paramedics attached tubes from your body to his. You are filtering his blood through your kidneys and liver, and he needs you to do this to live. He's going to need this for nine months, when donor organs will be made available to him.

Should you be compelled by the state to go through with this?

Do I like his music?

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unint ... cy-US.html

95% of unintended pregnancies are caused by misuse or disuse of contraceptives, and unintended pregnancy is the main reason why women get abortions.
This is why I do not support abortion unless the woman in question is either a rape victim or there may be life-threatening complications.
One shouldn't get to abort their fetus because they used contraceptives improperly or didn't use them at all.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

This tends to be a touchy topic, but I'm curious.

What is your stance on abortion?

In case you're interested, I personally do not support abortion, with the exception of circumstances where the pregnant individual was impregnated as a result of rape, or the pregnancy could endanger their life. In such circumstances, I believe that it's not fair to force the person to go through with the pregnancy, since it was either not incurred willingly or it could threaten their life. I believe that otherwise, it's the person's responsibility to their unborn child to, at the very least, give birth to them. The individual had sex willingly, and knew that pregnancy could be a result. Thus, killing the fetus, in my opinion, is highly irresponsible.

But, hey, that's just me. What do you think?

Hi, Sancti! I love your name, by the way. It's quite pretty.

Usually the amount of people who abort in cases of rape or because of the "mother's health" is very low. People usually abort for other reasons, such as not having enough money, being scared of being abandoned by family, friends, boyfriends, etc.

Indeed, killing the fetus is irresponsible. It doesn't fix anything. That being said, how is killing a baby who was conceived in rape responsible?

I dunno if I'm just overthinking the name or anything, but I've seen the name 'Sanctissima' before. Would you happen to be Catholic?

1. You say the cases of rape or mother's health is low. How do you know that? Besides, you also assert that not having enough money or being scared of being abandoned is another reason to have an abortion, guess where that culture comes from?

2. Killing the fetus is not irresponsible. Like I noted in a prior talk with you pregnant women don't just go and expect to have a soccer match with their fetus. Also, killing a baby who was conceived in rape is far more responsible and merciful than having that child suffer his or her mother's resentment because her family and society forced her to have a baby that was the result of rape and she has a reminder for the rest of her life which she will loathe forever.

[Arcturus Novus]

...This makes more sense than my current perception of the situation. Thanks.

No problem.

Trust me, after living with a misogynistic grandmother it becomes easier to understand not all women are actually concerned about the best interest of fellow women.

You're pretty wise, Soldati.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

A fetus can experience things. It has a heartbeat pretty early, it can dream, it can suck its thumb, it can swim around in the womb, it can hear its mother's voice (to some degree), it can eat, and it can experience contentment or fear. Of course, I'm putting all these things down in random order, rather than in the order in which the fetus develops all these abilities, but you get the picture. A fetus can experience things. Thus, it is not a rock, which...as we both know...just sits there.

Provide a source that says it can dream. Provide a source that those motions are anything other than reflexes. Source that it can hear the mothers voice. Source that it can eat. Source that ic can experience contentment or fear.

I can say with relative certainty that most fetuses will survive childbirth and be capable of eventually doing these things.

[Mavorpen]

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html

95% of unintended pregnancies are caused by misuse or disuse of contraceptives, and unintended pregnancy is the main reason why women get abortions.
This is why I do not support abortion unless the woman in question is either a rape victim or there may be life-threatening complications.
One shouldn't get to abort their fetus because they used contraceptives improperly or didn't use them at all.

Well that's too bad, really. They have a right to obtain a medical procedure, and it's between them and their doctors. You have no say.

[Lost heros]

Provide a source that says it can dream. Provide a source that those motions are anything other than reflexes. Source that it can hear the mothers voice. Source that it can eat. Source that ic can experience contentment or fear.

Whoa! One at a time! Okay...(This is what I get for debating online when I should be doing Spanish homework...)

Okay, here you go:
http://www.pregnancy.org/article/overvi ... evelopment

This is an overview. Tell me if I left anything out.

Would you please direct us to the relevant portions. I really don't feel like reading an entire (and partially fallacious) summary of the development of a fetus.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html

95% of unintended pregnancies are caused by misuse or disuse of contraceptives, and unintended pregnancy is the main reason why women get abortions.
This is why I do not support abortion unless the woman in question is either a rape victim or there may be life-threatening complications.
One shouldn't get to abort their fetus because they used contraceptives improperly or didn't use them at all.

One should definitely get to abort fetuses because they used contraceptives improperly or didn't use them at all.

What, you think that somehow morality trumps rights?

[Lost heros]

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html

95% of unintended pregnancies are caused by misuse or disuse of contraceptives, and unintended pregnancy is the main reason why women get abortions.
This is why I do not support abortion unless the woman in question is either a rape victim or there may be life-threatening complications.
One shouldn't get to abort their fetus because they used contraceptives improperly or didn't use them at all.

So if I drive without my seatbelt, I deserve to die in a crash?

[Neutraligon]

Provide a source that says it can dream. Provide a source that those motions are anything other than reflexes. Source that it can hear the mothers voice. Source that it can eat. Source that ic can experience contentment or fear.

Whoa! One at a time! Okay...(This is what I get for debating online when I should be doing Spanish homework...)

Okay, here you go:
http://www.pregnancy.org/article/overvi ... evelopment

This is an overview. Tell me if I left anything out.

So let's see I see no evidence of dreaming, heartbeat is clear, sucking thumb is clear, but again that doesn't mean it is simply motions with not consciousness, swimming makes no sense, eating was not included, contentment or fear where not mentioned. It can hear it's mothers voice...well into the pregnancy.

[East Catalina]

This tends to be a touchy topic, but I'm curious.

What is your stance on abortion?

In case you're interested, I personally do not support abortion, with the exception of circumstances where the pregnant individual was impregnated as a result of rape, or the pregnancy could endanger their life. In such circumstances, I believe that it's not fair to force the person to go through with the pregnancy, since it was either not incurred willingly or it could threaten their life. I believe that otherwise, it's the person's responsibility to their unborn child to, at the very least, give birth to them. The individual had sex willingly, and knew that pregnancy could be a result. Thus, killing the fetus, in my opinion, is highly irresponsible.

But, hey, that's just me. What do you think?

Hi, Sancti! I love your name, by the way. It's quite pretty.

Usually the amount of people who abort in cases of rape or because of the "mother's health" is very low. People usually abort for other reasons, such as not having enough money, being scared of being abandoned by family, friends, boyfriends, etc.

Indeed, killing the fetus is irresponsible. It doesn't fix anything. That being said, how is killing a baby who was conceived in rape responsible?

I dunno if I'm just overthinking the name or anything, but I've seen the name 'Sanctissima' before. Would you happen to be Catholic?

Well, if they decide to have a kid later, quality of life is important and they don't want their or their child(ren)'s quality of life degrading because of a new member of the brood. Furthermore, I conceive of responsibility as relating to a duty one consciously assumes. Who said that by having sex women consciously assume the duty of bringing a new human into the world?
'sanctissima', I believe is feminine singular or neuter plural superlative of sanctus and means in Latin, "holiest"/"most sacred" or something like that.

[Farnhamia]

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html

95% of unintended pregnancies are caused by misuse or disuse of contraceptives, and unintended pregnancy is the main reason why women get abortions.
This is why I do not support abortion unless the woman in question is either a rape victim or there may be life-threatening complications.
One shouldn't get to abort their fetus because they used contraceptives improperly or didn't use them at all.

So if I drive without my seatbelt, I deserve to die in a crash?

No, but if you do, it's no one's fault but your own.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Provide a source that says it can dream. Provide a source that those motions are anything other than reflexes. Source that it can hear the mothers voice. Source that it can eat. Source that ic can experience contentment or fear.

I can say with relative certainty that most fetuses will survive childbirth and be capable of eventually doing these things.

Most fetuses can also develop complications, most fetuses can also die shortly after childbirth, and most fetuses can be stillbirths.

Your statement means absolutely nothing when you have an organism that even a cosmic misalignment can kill it.

[Othelos]

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-Unintended-Pregnancy-US.html

95% of unintended pregnancies are caused by misuse or disuse of contraceptives, and unintended pregnancy is the main reason why women get abortions.
This is why I do not support abortion unless the woman in question is either a rape victim or there may be life-threatening complications.
One shouldn't get to abort their fetus because they used contraceptives improperly or didn't use them at all.

it's not for you to decide what other women do with their bodies