NationStates

Soldati senza confini wrote:

Shilya wrote:http://www.idaho.gov/laws_rules/firearm.html



You need to pass a test to get a drivers licence. You should also need to pass a test to get a shooters licence.

WTF?

I think that in Texas you gotta have a permit.

There is a reason that Idaho is looking so nice....It is just like the America the founding fathers lived in!

Big Jim P wrote:

Esternial wrote:Ah, I see.

Ultimately that goes to show, then, that having a gun out in public is just an extra hazard for you and others.

No, it goes to show that guns have advanced beyond the need for external safeties.

Yeah...those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Soldati senza confini wrote:

Shilya wrote:http://www.idaho.gov/laws_rules/firearm.html



You need to pass a test to get a drivers licence. You should also need to pass a test to get a shooters licence.

WTF?

I think that in Texas you gotta have a permit.

A CCW to carry, but no permit to own, and there are bills to allow constitutional carry in the State legislature as we speak. Hopefully they will pass.

Luziyca wrote:It could've been avoided if gun control laws were implemented....

Or even better, a little dose of common sense by the now deceased on proper carry techniques.

Greater Weselton wrote:Why did this person have a gun at Wal-Mart?

In this area, anything from recovering domestic abuse victim to self defense from wild animals. And yes, its happened before. Late 90's we had a mountain lion take a stroll into a middle school about 15 min from where this took place. Wasn't the first time and I doubt it will be the last.

Esternial wrote:

Big Jim P wrote:No, it goes to show that guns have advanced beyond the need for external safeties.

Yeah...those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

True, but a gun is also more than just an extra hazard. They are also an extra means of defense.

Tubbsalot wrote:

Big Jim P wrote:There are plenty of examples of successful self defense that prove this wrong.

Ok, well, how about describing that situation like I asked for multiple times in the post you quoted. Preferably the sort of situation which could happen on a regular basis.

A trio of masked dwarves collectively point a banana painted black with a sharpie at you, demanding your Mithril and NOW DAMMIT. Upon hearing this occurrence, your gun becomes sentient, turns it's safety off, and BAM, you get a slot on the five o'clock news for heroically filling three small people with threatening beards full of lead while simultaneously saving all the local schoolchildren and preserving our guaranteed right to defend ourselves from facial hair and fruit.

Big Jim P wrote:Which Tubbs refuses to acknowledge.

Of course.

Shilya wrote:

New Tsavon wrote:A safety takes a little more than "five seconds" to disable if you have no idea about what you're doing.

If you have no idea what you're doing, you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

I was referring to a toddler fumbling with a gun.

Ban children, they only make mistakes. Keep them in a room until they reach 18, or hands, or even ban people. People make mistakes too.

Trygg wrote:

Tubbsalot wrote:Ok, well, how about describing that situation like I asked for multiple times in the post you quoted. Preferably the sort of situation which could happen on a regular basis.

A trio of masked dwarves collectively point a banana painted black with a sharpie at you, demanding your Mithril and NOW DAMMIT. Upon hearing this occurrence, your gun becomes sentient, turns it's safety off, and BAM, you get a slot on the five o'clock news for heroically filling three small people with threatening beards full of lead while simultaneously saving all the local schoolchildren and preserving our guaranteed right to defend ourselves from facial hair and fruit.

Big Jim P wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:
WTF?

I think that in Texas you gotta have a permit.

A CCW to carry, but no permit to own, and there are bills to allow constitutional carry in the State legislature as we speak. Hopefully they will pass.

I'd be okay with either carry (CCW or Open-Carry) if a license was issued.

I refuse to be in the same place as an utter idiot who doesn't know how to put the safety lock on their gun.

Big Jim P wrote:

Esternial wrote:Yeah...those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

True, but a gun is also more than just an extra hazard. They are also an extra means of defense.

Because of that they naturally require a permit to prove one can handle that hazard responsibly.

WestRedMaple wrote:A knife is nearly always less effective than a firearm.

Unless you're already in a situation where you are wrapped up grappling with an opponent, a firearm is the clear winner. A knife is a poor choice for self-defense. It has very poor stopping ability in comparison to a firearm or bludgeoning weapon. Pepper spray is quite inadequate. It's range is very short, it is quite ineffective if you cannot get at someone's face, it's not very effective on everyone, a decent wind can make it very difficult to use or even cause you to get more of it than your target, recovery from its effects is much faster, and even if you've effectively applied it, it still has less stopping power than a firearm, leaving your attacker more opportunity to hurt you.

Given that most encounters are going to be short-range, and you're not carrying your gun ready to fire, you are highly likely to be either grappling or severely/lethally wounded. So yes, a non-lethal or melee weapon would be preferable, especially since they require less preparation.

New Tsavon wrote:We'll never know, then.

Indeed, which was my entire point. You can't say "the safety wasn't on, the mother was stupid" because we have no way of knowing if that's actually true.

New Tsavon wrote:There are a lot of examples of firearms being used for self defense.

Great, well, how about you describe a situation which could reasonably occur, and explain why a gun is the best option for that situation.

Big Jim P wrote:"Reading a giant list" of documented cases that proved your statement about guns being useless for self defense wrong.

Yeah. I checked the links; they're just a bunch of random articles. I've no doubt they describe people using their guns for self-defence, because that does happen, I'm just arguing that there are always better options. And I don't think they'll address that point of mine.

And frankly, even if one does, I'm not sifting through 50 articles to find it. You might as well link me to a google search of "self defence with guns" and act like you've proven me wrong.

Soldati senza confini wrote:

Big Jim P wrote:
A CCW to carry, but no permit to own, and there are bills to allow constitutional carry in the State legislature as we speak. Hopefully they will pass.

I'd be okay with either carry (CCW or Open-Carry) if a license was issued.

I refuse to be in the same place as an utter idiot who doesn't know how to put the safety lock on their gun.

Actually, open carry of long-arms is legal in Texas. It is only the open carry of handguns that is illegal. A remnant from the reconstruction era.

WestRedMaple wrote:

Tubbsalot wrote: There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

Alrighty, your claim is obviously ridiculous, but let's give you a chance to support your wild claim: A guy walks up a few feet away from you on the sidewalk, points a gun at you, and threatens your life.....what tool for self-defense would you prefer? How is a concealed firearm useless? (Especially given the fact that it has been used quite successfully in exactly such a situation).

Just had to respond.

My bare hands of course. What you do is put your hands up and plead him not to shoot then move closer into him while moving to the side grab the gun then turn the barrel towards him and then to his side giving him a less intense grip and pull the gun away close to your body barrel facing the attacker and slowly back away keeping it pointed at him (all hims are him/her) and even if they fire the gun while your holding it you'll have adrenaline pumping.

That is of course circumstantial to where they do it basically point blank from up front.

Big Jim P wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:
I'd be okay with either carry (CCW or Open-Carry) if a license was issued.

I refuse to be in the same place as an utter idiot who doesn't know how to put the safety lock on their gun.

Actually, open carry of long-arms is legal in Texas. It is only the open carry of handguns that is illegal. A remnant from the reconstruction era.

Then fuck it, next thing we should be doing is introducing gun safety classes in schools.

Look, I don't disagree with people carrying weapons. But I want to be sure that those who are issued a gun are not complete irresponsible tools.

WestRedMaple wrote:

Tubbsalot wrote:The person presumably has their weapon ready and is at close range. You have to ready the gun and then use it at a range where a knife would be a superior weapon. Pepper spray would be a better choice for multiple reasons.


Because I'm not aware of these examples, can't think of any myself, and you're theoretically attempting to convince me of your views.

A knife is nearly always less effective than a firearm. Unless you're already in a situation where you are wrapped up grappling with an opponent, a firearm is the clear winner. A knife is a poor choice for self-defense. It has very poor stopping ability in comparison to a firearm or bludgeoning weapon. Pepper spray is quite inadequate. It's range is very short, it is quite ineffective if you cannot get at someone's face, it's not very effective on everyone, a decent wind can make it very difficult to use or even cause you to get more of it than your target, recovery from its effects is much faster, and even if you've effectively applied it, it still has less stopping power than a firearm, leaving your attacker more opportunity to hurt you.

Yes it is less effective if your untrained with it (like most of the general populace) but a knife is very deadly if you know how to use one (no stabbing).

For those advocating gun control the deceased lady had a permit and as such it could be presumed that she had sufficient training prior to being issued a permit.

For those advocating that the government keep out of our lives: see Queen "Another One Bites The Dust"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

Gotta Love America
Land of the Free
Land of the Stupid

Tubbsalot wrote:

WestRedMaple wrote:A knife is nearly always less effective than a firearm.

Unless you're already in a situation where you are wrapped up grappling with an opponent, a firearm is the clear winner. A knife is a poor choice for self-defense. It has very poor stopping ability in comparison to a firearm or bludgeoning weapon. Pepper spray is quite inadequate. It's range is very short, it is quite ineffective if you cannot get at someone's face, it's not very effective on everyone, a decent wind can make it very difficult to use or even cause you to get more of it than your target, recovery from its effects is much faster, and even if you've effectively applied it, it still has less stopping power than a firearm, leaving your attacker more opportunity to hurt you.

Given that most encounters are going to be short-range, and you're not carrying your gun ready to fire, you are highly likely to be either grappling or severely/lethally wounded. So yes, a non-lethal or melee weapon would be preferable, especially since they require less preparation.

New Tsavon wrote:We'll never know, then.

Indeed, which was my entire point. You can't say "the safety wasn't on, the mother was stupid" because we have no way of knowing if that's actually true.

New Tsavon wrote:There are a lot of examples of firearms being used for self defense.

Great, well, how about you describe a situation which could reasonably occur, and explain why a gun is the best option for that situation.

Big Jim P wrote:"Reading a giant list" of documented cases that proved your statement about guns being useless for self defense wrong.

Yeah. I checked the links; they're just a bunch of random articles. I've no doubt they describe people using their guns for self-defence, because that does happen, I'm just arguing that there are always better options. And I don't think they'll address that point of mine.

And frankly, even if one does, I'm not sifting through 50 articles to find it. You might as well link me to a google search of "self defence with guns" and act like you've proven me wrong.

So, you refuse to acknowledge that you were wrong when you stated this, even in the face of evidence to the contrary:

Tubbsalot wrote:
There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

Soldati senza confini wrote:

Big Jim P wrote:
Actually, open carry of long-arms is legal in Texas. It is only the open carry of handguns that is illegal. A remnant from the reconstruction era.

Then fuck it, next thing we should be doing is introducing gun safety classes in schools.

Look, I don't disagree with people carrying weapons. But I want to be sure that those who are issued a gun are not complete irresponsible tools.

We used to have gun-safety (and gun clubs) in schools.

Big Jim P wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Then fuck it, next thing we should be doing is introducing gun safety classes in schools.

Look, I don't disagree with people carrying weapons. But I want to be sure that those who are issued a gun are not complete irresponsible tools.

We used to have gun-safety (and gun clubs) in schools.

Why not anymore?

Big Jim P wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Then fuck it, next thing we should be doing is introducing gun safety classes in schools.

Look, I don't disagree with people carrying weapons. But I want to be sure that those who are issued a gun are not complete irresponsible tools.

We used to have gun-safety (and gun clubs) in schools.

True. The kids were once taught to respect guns and not fear them... And America was once a great place to live...

Ayreonia wrote:

Big Jim P wrote:
We used to have gun-safety (and gun clubs) in schools.

Why not anymore?

Mothers Against Guns?

Also, I have lived in Texas for the past 40 years and have never needed a gun for self-defense
And that has included times in my life where my decisions were rather risky


Now,
On occasion I've wanted a gun for homicidal reasons such as taking out some drivers...

Good thing I'm a pacifist

Big Jim P wrote:

Tubbsalot wrote:Given that most encounters are going to be short-range, and you're not carrying your gun ready to fire, you are highly likely to be either grappling or severely/lethally wounded. So yes, a non-lethal or melee weapon would be preferable, especially since they require less preparation.


Indeed, which was my entire point. You can't say "the safety wasn't on, the mother was stupid" because we have no way of knowing if that's actually true.


Great, well, how about you describe a situation which could reasonably occur, and explain why a gun is the best option for that situation.


Yeah. I checked the links; they're just a bunch of random articles. I've no doubt they describe people using their guns for self-defence, because that does happen, I'm just arguing that there are always better options. And I don't think they'll address that point of mine.

And frankly, even if one does, I'm not sifting through 50 articles to find it. You might as well link me to a google search of "self defence with guns" and act like you've proven me wrong.

So, you refuse to acknowledge that you were wrong when you stated this, even in the face of evidence to the contrary:

Tubbsalot wrote:
There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

Look, Jim, don't go pretending there aren't enough cases to adequately add weight to either side of the argument. Both sides have a fair share of reasonable arguments.

Big Jim P wrote:So, you refuse to acknowledge that you were wrong when you stated this, even in the face of evidence to the contrary:

Tubbsalot wrote:There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

Firstly, no, that statement still stands. By "good option," I mean preferable to non-lethal weapons.

Secondly, you have yet to produce any evidence aside from "look at my sig, lol this guy's so dumb i keep telling him, rofl."