Do you know what "personal" protection means? As opposed to "national" protection?
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by Keyboard Warriors » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:40 pm
by Salandriagado » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:43 pm
by Tubbsalot » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:44 pm
Galloism wrote:I'm not sure that's even true in the long term.
We're notoriously bad at banning shit. Really.
We've spent billions untold on the drug war, and I bet you I could walk out my front door, and, inside of 30 minutes, score some cocaine (I won't - of course. It's illegal and, besides, I have no use for it). It wasn't all that fired uncommon in Florida when I was down there for a haul of full auto weapons imported from Russia or other places that have NEVER been legal in the US since their manufacture date.
Hell, there's what... half a dozen ATF field offices in Florida? And they're busy as hell grabbing illegal firearms.
So no, I don't think a ban would be effective. Not here.
Galloism wrote:Tubbsalot wrote:No, "run at them" was always my primary suggestion. Maybe you could find a use for pepper spray somewhere in there, but as I said at the start, you'd probably just grapple them to prevent them from shooting you.
I'm sure that'll work great given I'm currently in physical therapy and basically only able to use one arm to fight with.
Well, and for disabled vietnam veterans using walkers. Shamble faster, grandpa!
Galloism wrote:Or, for half the cost, we could simply put in a real social safety net and public education, and become Switzerland or Sweden.
Gun Manufacturers wrote:The second link I posted for the second example states that the man fired, and THEN the assailant ran away.
Gun Manufacturers wrote:Do these examples meet your approval, then?
WestRedMaple wrote:Tubbsalot wrote:No, "run at them" was always my primary suggestion. Maybe you could find a use for pepper spray somewhere in there, but as I said at the start, you'd probably just grapple them to prevent them from shooting you.
The answer is yes, you did claim that other non-lethal and melee weapons would require less preparation. Then you turned around to pretend otherwise
United Marxist Nations wrote:How do you explain Switzerland's low murder rate?
And again, until you give a way to implement it, it may as well not be a suggestion at all.
by United Marxist Nations » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:44 pm
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by United Marxist Nations » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:45 pm
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by Keyboard Warriors » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:46 pm
Galloism wrote:Keyboard Warriors wrote:And which studies would they be? You mean that crappy Harvard one which doesn't even bother explaining why international data samples often don't correlate?
It matters because people in a poor socioeconomic state, normally who would be turned to crime, have access to firearms and ammunition in the US whereas they largely don't in Sweden or Switzerland.
Largely, those people who are in such a poor socioeconomic state they must turn to crime are in much fewer numbers, proportionally, in Sweden and Switzerland.
Because of the fucking safety net.
by Geilinor » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:46 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:Keyboard Warriors wrote:Yes it is.
Swiss citizens - for example hunters, or those who shoot as a sport - can get a permit to buy guns and ammunition, unless they have a criminal record, or police deem them unsuitable on psychiatric or security grounds.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912
by United Marxist Nations » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:46 pm
Tubbsalot wrote:Galloism wrote:I'm not sure that's even true in the long term.
We're notoriously bad at banning shit. Really.
We've spent billions untold on the drug war, and I bet you I could walk out my front door, and, inside of 30 minutes, score some cocaine (I won't - of course. It's illegal and, besides, I have no use for it). It wasn't all that fired uncommon in Florida when I was down there for a haul of full auto weapons imported from Russia or other places that have NEVER been legal in the US since their manufacture date.
Hell, there's what... half a dozen ATF field offices in Florida? And they're busy as hell grabbing illegal firearms.
So no, I don't think a ban would be effective. Not here.
Drug precursors can be brought in pretty easily - the only thing which can stop them is dogs at customs. If you really care, you can manufacture drugs from things which aren't considered precursors. Booze can be produced anywhere, easily, with very common ingredients. And people get addicted to both of those - they can require drugs.
None of that applies to guns. There are fewer options for smuggling them in, they're more easily detected, less portable, more difficult to manufacture... obviously you can't prevent guns from ever getting in, but the idea isn't to bring the supply to 0, it's to bring it so low that ordinary criminals don't have access to them, and even organised crime reserves firearms for special cases to avoid throwing heat on themselves.Galloism wrote:I'm sure that'll work great given I'm currently in physical therapy and basically only able to use one arm to fight with.
Well, and for disabled vietnam veterans using walkers. Shamble faster, grandpa!
Well, there's no solution which will make everything perfect for everyone. As usual, if you couldn't rush them you wouldn't be able to draw your gun in time, either.Galloism wrote:Or, for half the cost, we could simply put in a real social safety net and public education, and become Switzerland or Sweden.
Proper social services would help a lot, yes, but that's not the be-all end-all of public safety.
(Also, gun control is not generally expensive - there aren't massive, costly, wasteful "wars on guns" in other countries, although it would certainly get closer in America than elsewhere.)Gun Manufacturers wrote:The second link I posted for the second example states that the man fired, and THEN the assailant ran away.
Are you totally sure? Because it also mentions that the man defending himself didn't commit a crime because of the specific laws of the state, which protect people over... 65, I think? Which doesn't sound like something you'd need for a straight-up self-defence case.Gun Manufacturers wrote:Do these examples meet your approval, then?
Yes.
If you live somewhere with dangerous wildlife, that's as good a reason as you can get to carry a gun.WestRedMaple wrote:The answer is yes, you did claim that other non-lethal and melee weapons would require less preparation. Then you turned around to pretend otherwise
Okay, dude, whatever you like.United Marxist Nations wrote:How do you explain Switzerland's low murder rate?
And again, until you give a way to implement it, it may as well not be a suggestion at all.
Switzerland is pretty much the only country in the world with a high rate of gun ownership and low crime. I'm not going to pretend to know what makes it so special, but I'm also not going to pretend that this exception is any kind of general example.
And you're right, but in gun control arguments, my opponents tend to be people shouting about the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO OWN A GUN and that ONLY A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN CAN STOP A BAD GUY WITH A GUN and IF YOU OUTLAW GUNS ONLY OUTLAWS etc etc etc. If your opinion is that a gun ban might be theoretically desirable but it's impractical in reality, I don't really have a problem with that.
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by Gun Manufacturers » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:46 pm
Master Shake wrote:Keyboard Warriors wrote:Because it's very difficult to buy ammunition in switzerland.
Reminds me of a Chris Rock joke...
How do we stop innocent bystanders being killed in drive by shootings?
Well easy. Make the cost of a single bullet $5,000 dollars...
If they want to kill someone then they need to be very accurate.
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by Keyboard Warriors » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:46 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:Keyboard Warriors wrote:Yes it is.
Swiss citizens - for example hunters, or those who shoot as a sport - can get a permit to buy guns and ammunition, unless they have a criminal record, or police deem them unsuitable on psychiatric or security grounds.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912
by Tubbsalot » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:48 pm
Keyboard Warriors wrote:Sweden's murder rate is a seventh of that of the US. Can you use your data on "fewer numbers" to show that likewise the rate of people living in poverty in Sweden is a seventh of that of the US?
Can you explain other countries having a much lower murder rate than the US when the degree of coverage provided by social welfare is comparable?
by Mavorpen » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:49 pm
by Cannabiland » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:50 pm
by Keyboard Warriors » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:53 pm
Tubbsalot wrote:Keyboard Warriors wrote:Sweden's murder rate is a seventh of that of the US. Can you use your data on "fewer numbers" to show that likewise the rate of people living in poverty in Sweden is a seventh of that of the US?
Can you explain other countries having a much lower murder rate than the US when the degree of coverage provided by social welfare is comparable?
Obviously it's not that simple, there are a lot of factors which feed into it and it's not going to be a straight 1/7 poverty = 1/7 gun crime. But it's a factor, and it's well known that the socioeconomic wellbeing of the general population is closely linked to crime and other undesirable activity.
by Galloism » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:53 pm
Tubbsalot wrote:Galloism wrote:I'm not sure that's even true in the long term.
We're notoriously bad at banning shit. Really.
We've spent billions untold on the drug war, and I bet you I could walk out my front door, and, inside of 30 minutes, score some cocaine (I won't - of course. It's illegal and, besides, I have no use for it). It wasn't all that fired uncommon in Florida when I was down there for a haul of full auto weapons imported from Russia or other places that have NEVER been legal in the US since their manufacture date.
Hell, there's what... half a dozen ATF field offices in Florida? And they're busy as hell grabbing illegal firearms.
So no, I don't think a ban would be effective. Not here.
Drug precursors can be brought in pretty easily - the only thing which can stop them is dogs at customs. If you really care, you can manufacture drugs from things which aren't considered precursors. Booze can be produced anywhere, easily, with very common ingredients. And people get addicted to both of those - they can require drugs.
None of that applies to guns. There are fewer options for smuggling them in, they're more easily detected, less portable, more difficult to manufacture... obviously you can't prevent guns from ever getting in, but the idea isn't to bring the supply to 0, it's to bring it so low that ordinary criminals don't have access to them, and even organised crime reserves firearms for special cases to avoid throwing heat on themselves.
Galloism wrote:I'm sure that'll work great given I'm currently in physical therapy and basically only able to use one arm to fight with.
Well, and for disabled vietnam veterans using walkers. Shamble faster, grandpa!
Well, there's no solution which will make everything perfect for everyone. As usual, if you couldn't rush them you wouldn't be able to draw your gun in time, either.
Galloism wrote:Or, for half the cost, we could simply put in a real social safety net and public education, and become Switzerland or Sweden.
Proper social services would help a lot, yes, but that's not the be-all end-all of public safety.
(Also, gun control is not generally expensive - there aren't massive, costly, wasteful "wars on guns" in other countries, although it would certainly get closer in America than elsewhere.)
by Rubbishstan » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:53 pm
by Galloism » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:56 pm
Keyboard Warriors wrote:Galloism wrote:Largely, those people who are in such a poor socioeconomic state they must turn to crime are in much fewer numbers, proportionally, in Sweden and Switzerland.
Because of the fucking safety net.
Sweden's murder rate is a seventh of that of the US. Can you use your data on "fewer numbers" to show that likewise the rate of people living in poverty in Sweden is a seventh of that of the US?
Can you explain other countries having a much lower murder rate than the US when the degree of coverage provided by social welfare is comparable?
by United Marxist Nations » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:56 pm
Keyboard Warriors wrote:United Marxist Nations wrote:Swiss citizens - for example hunters, or those who shoot as a sport - can get a permit to buy guns and ammunition, unless they have a criminal record, or police deem them unsuitable on psychiatric or security grounds.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912
Try buying ammunition for the half million assault rifles that are present in many Swiss homes which greatly inflates the firearm ownership figures.
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by United Marxist Nations » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:59 pm
Mavorpen wrote:United Marxist Nations wrote:Is that why Switzerland mandates that its young men be trained in the use of an assault rifle, as well as actively maintaining it?
Uh, you do realize that's not for personal safety, right? Switzerland has no standing army, so it trains almost all able bodied men and conscripts them into the militia. So yeah, Keyboard is right. Switzerland doesn't have a culture that emphasizes guns being used for personal protection.
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by Mavorpen » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:00 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:Mavorpen wrote:Uh, you do realize that's not for personal safety, right? Switzerland has no standing army, so it trains almost all able bodied men and conscripts them into the militia. So yeah, Keyboard is right. Switzerland doesn't have a culture that emphasizes guns being used for personal protection.
Yeah, I'll admit that was an oversight on my part. However, I think it does show that the Swiss are exceptionally paranoid.
Meanwhile, in Poland...
by Keyboard Warriors » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:01 pm
United Marxist Nations wrote:Keyboard Warriors wrote:Try buying ammunition for the half million assault rifles that are present in many Swiss homes which greatly inflates the firearm ownership figures.
You can, it's why sport shooting is a very common thing in Switzerland, about 600,000 belong to gun-clubs.
by Seno Zhou Varada » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:03 pm
Galloism wrote:Tubbsalot wrote:Drug precursors can be brought in pretty easily - the only thing which can stop them is dogs at customs. If you really care, you can manufacture drugs from things which aren't considered precursors. Booze can be produced anywhere, easily, with very common ingredients. And people get addicted to both of those - they can require drugs.
Eh, we smuggle in billions of pounds of marijuana annually, and very few are addicted to pot.
It's not especially addicting.None of that applies to guns. There are fewer options for smuggling them in, they're more easily detected, less portable, more difficult to manufacture... obviously you can't prevent guns from ever getting in, but the idea isn't to bring the supply to 0, it's to bring it so low that ordinary criminals don't have access to them, and even organised crime reserves firearms for special cases to avoid throwing heat on themselves.
They're not more easily detected, actually. They're not especially less portable either. We don't have the manpower or equipment to scan even 1% of the cargo that enters the United States. Drugs are easier (although not especially easy), because a dog can walk down the aisle between containers stacked three high and detect drugs. Guns cannot be sniffed out.
Certainly more difficult to manufacture. It'd probably take me the better part of two days to manufacture a decent one in my garage if my left hand wasn't messed up. Of course, I have tools.
Now, if we're talking about sniper weapons, you're quite correct that it requires a very specific and precise manufacturing process, but making a gun that's good at a range of 100 feet is really not that hard.Well, there's no solution which will make everything perfect for everyone. As usual, if you couldn't rush them you wouldn't be able to draw your gun in time, either.
Grandpa did. He wouldn't have been able to rush them, but he did have time to draw his gun.
One of my main problems is that those who seek to ban guns seek to ban the great equalizer of force. This means that, in reality, who they are hurting are women and the elderly. Those are the ones who need guns most - because they can't (or may not be able to) defend themselves using their body alone.
Really, those who would ban guns hate women.Proper social services would help a lot, yes, but that's not the be-all end-all of public safety.
(Also, gun control is not generally expensive - there aren't massive, costly, wasteful "wars on guns" in other countries, although it would certainly get closer in America than elsewhere.)
You're talking about banning something more dearly held precious by Americans than alcohol or drugs.
Something that is seen as a god-given right (not really my view, given if it was god-given, we would have had guns always) to have. If you think it would be cheaper than the drug war, you are so far outside this reality that we're going to need some sort of transdimensional gateway to get you back.
by United Marxist Nations » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:03 pm
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by -The Unified Earth Governments- » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:04 pm
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