New Greek elections

[Martean]

Most (read: all) polls I know disagree with the people from where you live.

Yes also polls results can be skimmed to alter reality.

That why for some reason syriza got 3% percent better than best polls in the european parliament elections.

I am not saying that people that want as to stay in the Eurozone don't exist but the majority of the people I know want us out.

I too want us out but I know it practically impossible with the state of our economy now.

Out of 9 polls that were issued before the EP Election, 5 gave the victory to ND, 1 said there was going to be a tie between Syriza and ND, and only 3 said that Syriza was going to win.

Syriza's polling was 2-3 points above of their actual results, but ND's polling was 4-6 points above.

[Parti Ouvrier]

What do you think results will be?

I think it will be something close to this:

Syriza: 36%
ND: 31%
To Potami: 8%
GD: 6,5%
KKE: 5,5%
PASOK: 4,5%
ANEL: 3% (may not enter the parliament)
Kinima: 2,5% (may enter the parliament, but I doubt it)
Dimar: <1% (Does someone still votes them?)

Supposing ANEL entered the parliament, and with the results above, I see a coalition between Syriza, To Potami, and ANEL.

Coalition with ANEL? That's nuts! And, surely 36% is enough to govern alone.

Anyway, I can understand support for Syriza, it offers hope and I support them standing up to the EU. Also, it is unlikely, but there is a possibility that this will push the Greek masses further and lead to solidarity support across Europe, eg. Spain and Italy, perhaps even global support. However, it is more likely the Tsipras premiership, perhaps two or three months down the line will compromise and settle for modest concessions that won't solve the problems. Sure, it might be a better result for Greece, but Grecs will end up with a Samaras-lite government and will no doubt destroy Syriza. In a worst case scenario, the new Syriza government will be made an example of by Merkel, EU/Troika. The reason is they don't want to send the message that forgiving Greece is ok, which will spark demands by Italy, Portugal and Spain. This could end badly and that is why I wouldn't advocate they take power, but remains a principled extreme opposition and has occupations, ect.

[Parti Ouvrier]

I'm wondering, why won't SYRIZA take Greece out of the Eurozone? I'm not talking about EU Grexit, I'm talking about EZ Grexit. The ECB & Co have been playing hardball with Greece, telling Greece "austerity or we kick you out of the EZ, fuckers!" SYRIZA's stance is very much anti-austerity. So if ECB & Co refuse to negotiate on the issue of austerity, and SYRIZA stands firm, wouldn't that lead to a Grexit from the EZ?

Great plan, they isolate themselves and become a Grec version of Hoxha's Albania, nice.

[Constantinopolis]

I'm wondering, why won't SYRIZA take Greece out of the Eurozone? I'm not talking about EU Grexit, I'm talking about EZ Grexit. The ECB & Co have been playing hardball with Greece, telling Greece "austerity or we kick you out of the EZ, fuckers!" SYRIZA's stance is very much anti-austerity. So if ECB & Co refuse to negotiate on the issue of austerity, and SYRIZA stands firm, wouldn't that lead to a Grexit from the EZ?

Great plan, they isolate themselves and become a Grec version of Hoxha's Albania, nice.

...because not being in the eurozone = I♥Hoxha4ever...

That explains so much about David Cameron, though.

[Baltenstein]

The reason is they don't want to send the message that forgiving Greece is ok, which will spark demands by Italy, Portugal and Spain. This could end badly and that is why I wouldn't advocate they take power, but remains a principled extreme opposition and has occupations, ect.

If Syriza doesn't take over government responsibility tomorrow, they would basically declare themselves to be an opposition party by default.

[Baltenstein]

By the way, here is Syriza's last campaign spot. They are making fun of New Democracy's fear-mongering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTseB9PAv2I

"On the 26th of January, an asteroid will approach earth...and pass it. The sun will rise at half past seven, shops and banks will open at 8 AM."

And a short video about the chaps from Golden Dawn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66-BDL83djM

The (tragically) funniest bit is probably that where they are singing "Deutschland über alles".

[Kenora County]

Here's hoping that New Democracy rigs the elections to save Greece from communism and bankruptcy

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Here's hoping that New Democracy rigs the elections to save Greece from communism and bankruptcy

Are you being sarcastic? I'm quite opposed to SYRIZA, but I hope you recognize the sheer ridiculousness of your post.

[Kenora County]

Here's hoping that New Democracy rigs the elections to save Greece from communism and bankruptcy

Are you being sarcastic? I'm quite opposed to SYRIZA, but I hope you recognize the sheer ridiculousness of your post.

You should watch Spinning Boris. That's how the Greeks feel right now

[Parti Ouvrier]

Here's hoping that New Democracy rigs the elections to save Greece from communism and bankruptcy

Are you being sarcastic? I'm quite opposed to SYRIZA, but I hope you recognize the sheer ridiculousness of your post.

Who knows? Syriza certainly isn't communist. Syriza should not take power prematurely, they should, for example, demand to disband the standing army and withdraw from Nato. Incidentally, I've heard that Syriza isn't calling for withdrawing from Nato, so they are not particularly left in my opinion. Syriza should also organise the unemployed, build more effective trade unions and be a leading force for working class unity across Europe.

[Baltenstein]

Are you being sarcastic? I'm quite opposed to SYRIZA, but I hope you recognize the sheer ridiculousness of your post.

Who knows? Syriza certainly isn't communist. Syriza should not take power prematurely, they should, for example, demand to disband the standing army and withdraw from Nato.

A foolish proposition.

[Parti Ouvrier]

Who knows? Syriza certainly isn't communist. Syriza should not take power prematurely, they should, for example, demand to disband the standing army and withdraw from Nato.

A foolish proposition.

Well, I'd hope that Constantinopolis is with me on this.
Edit: Other than you disagree with it, please explain what is foolish about it?

[Martean]

Who knows? Syriza certainly isn't communist. Syriza should not take power prematurely, they should, for example, demand to disband the standing army and withdraw from Nato.

A foolish proposition.

Indeed, most of the European Left now accepts we will have to live with being in the NATO.

Btw, have you decided yourself between To Potami and Syriza?

[Peterovia]

Fuck,NS is full of marxism

[Southern Hampshire]

Here's hoping that New Democracy rigs the elections to save Greece from communism and bankruptcy

I have that hope too.

In drastic life-changing situations sometimes you have to take illegal actions if it is for the good of your country.

Anyways, I don't care as i'm not Greek.

Greece will not disband their military and quit NATO, they've been at a hostile war with Turkey for the last two centuries.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

I can't see how we have to hate certain cultures because of historical events: indeed such events have to be held to account, but in a constructive way instead of going by the flawed "all X are Y" assumption.

[Socialist Assembly Marxists]

Fuck,NS is full of marxism

[Parti Ouvrier]

Here's hoping that New Democracy rigs the elections to save Greece from communism and bankruptcy

I have that hope too.

In drastic life-changing situations sometimes you have to take illegal actions if it is for the good of your country.

Anyways, I don't care as i'm not Greek.

Greece will not disband their military and quit NATO, they've been at a hostile war with Turkey for the last two centuries.

To the detriment of the working class. Also, your last point is contradictory, so Nato Greece must have a military against another nation within Nato.
Btw, good luck in having an independent London in Nato.

[Parti Ouvrier]

Here's hoping that New Democracy rigs the elections to save Greece from communism and bankruptcy

There's always the danger that if Syriza is too confrontational with the EU, Nato will come in and help enforce the Troika's rules. Also, a colonel's coup in 1967 occurred as the ballots were being counted. Anyway, whilst I disagree with you, I certainly think rigging the election is possible, not that Nato supporting Syriza is communist anyway.

[Parti Ouvrier]

A foolish proposition.

Indeed, most of the European Left now accepts we will have to live with being in the NATO.

Btw, have you decided yourself between To Potami and Syriza?

And this will get the soft neo-Keynesian left no where. I'll also add that Syriza should argue for a seperation of Church and state, instead Tsipiras chums up with Orthodox priests, chumming up to enemies of the left won't prevent the plotting of priests (or military for that matter), against a Syriza government.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

What the? I think the best option is to look into how Labour brought in the welfare state, right in the middle of our austerity after WWII.

[Southern Hampshire]

Here's hoping that New Democracy rigs the elections to save Greece from communism and bankruptcy

Although, in a hypothetical Greek disestablishment of the military, I do have to admit that they will have a huge profit.

Greece has 13 Frigates, all in post-cold War condition. That is more than Germany, Spain and the Netherlands, same number as the UK.
Greece has 26 Patrol vessels, all in post-cold War condition. That is the most in the EU, more than Turkey.
Greece has 8 Submarines. That is the most in the EU, more than France and the UK.

Greece has 29 attack helicopters, all in post-cold War condition. That is more than Spain.
Greece has 1920 Self-propelled artillery/Howitzers. That is the most in the EU, over 400 more than the next country, Poland.
Greece has 2187 infantry fighting vehicles. That is more than Germany and the UK.
Greece has 1622 Main Battle Tanks. That is the second most in the EU, just 50 less than Poland.

Greece has 287 Fighting or Ground-attack Jets. That is the most in the EU, 13 more than the next country, France. They also have the biggest F-16 fleet outside the US.
Greece has 21 Aerial refueling/transport aeroplanes, all of them in new condition.

Greece has an expenditure of 3.6 bn $

---

That means, if Greece were to rid themselves of their military: (Sales are on initial cost, depreciation not included & not adjusted for inflation)
Saving $3.6 bn expenditure
4 Type 209/14 Submarines, $285m each = $1.14 bn sales
4 Type 214/S Submarines, $330m each = $1.32 bn sales
9 Elli-class Frigates, $170m each = $1.53 bn sales
4 MEKO A200 Frigates, $340m each = $1.36 bn sales
7 Roussen-class Fast Attack craft, $92m each = $644 m sales
9 La Combattante III FACM, $45m each = $315 m sales
3 La Combattante II FACM, $22m each = $66 m sales
9 various Gunboats, approx $5m each = $45 m sales
(Patrol boats?) Assuming average of $15m = $390 m sales
4 Minesweepers (Osprey/Hunt), $30m each = $120 m sales

378 M60 Patton tanks, $1.2m each = $454 m sales
390 M48 Patton tanks, $1m each = $390 m sales
501 Leopard 1/A5 tanks, $1.1m each = 550 m sales
353 Leopard 2/A4 tanks, $6m each = $2.1 bn sales
2187 IFV, roughly $100k each = $220 m sales
590 Self-propelled artillery, $4m each = $2.35 bn sales
1330 towed artillery, $60k each = $80 m sales
36 MLRS (M2), $3m each = $108 m sales

29 A-64 Apache, $50m each = $1.45 bn sales
40 Chinooks, $30m each = $1.2 bn sales
50 F-4, $2m each = $100 m sales
43 Mirage 2000, $24m each = $1.03 bn sales
166 F-16, $20m each = $3.32 bn sales
13 C-130 Hercules, $30m each = $390 m sales
8 C-27 Spartan, $75m each = $600 m sales

That's $21.32 bn in sales in the first year
Which means in the first year Greece would have $25bn more to use.

This does not include other costs, such as fuel, maintenance, soldiers, ammunition, firearms, small vehicles, non-combat helicopters, civilian expense, etc. which probably compensates for the depreciation, so it's more or less fine

That is 10% of Greece's GDP saved. Obviously other externalities like unemployment through the military appear, but that is a lot of money.

[Arkolon]

Come on New Democrats...

[Bandwagon]

Here in Ireland I don't understand why don't we get rid of the Army and turn them in to some sort of Police.
We'll continue to be in Peacekeeping Operations using the Military Police but do nothing else. The Navy crowd will still patrol Irish waters.

[Britanno]

Come on New Democrats...

Is that some sort of minor unheard of party?