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Portomellow
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Postby Portomellow » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:13 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30558280

Former members of the armed forces who are sent to prison are to get more support, the government has said.

From January, all new prisoners will be asked if they have been in the forces so ex-service personnel can be given specific rehabilitation programmes.

The scheme, for prisons in England and Wales, follows a review into how the justice system deals with veterans.

Justice Secretary Chris Grayling said a "huge debt of gratitude" was owed to those who had served their country.

The government said the measures would identify and support veterans when they enter and leave prison, and give them a better chance of rehabilitation.

Prisons will be given new guidance about helping former servicemen and women while they are serving their sentence.

Mr Grayling said: "We do know that some ex-forces personnel end up in our criminal justice system.

"And what I want to make sure is that we know who they are, we know what circumstances have taken them there, and we do everything we can to prevent them going back there to help them get their lives straight."

Chris Grayling told BBC the state had a "particular duty of care" towards anyone who had served their country
The justice secretary added: "These are people who served our country, often served our country in many difficult and stressful situations. The least we can do is try and ensure that we look after them and make sure that we help them get their lives back together again."

He told the Murnaghan programme on Sky News that "most of the people who serve our country do not end up in the criminal justice system" and that a "very tiny minority" were sent to prison.

But former prisoner Mark Johnson, founder of charity User Voice which works to reduce reoffending, told BBC Radio 5 live it was not right to give former servicemen and women special treatment.

"I can't buy into a polarisation of this issue - of picking out, singling out, one cohort of a population inside a British prison," he said.

Mr Johnson added that it was "bizarre" that two prisoners might be facing the same difficulties - for example, post-traumatic stress disorder - yet one could be offered more help if they had been in the armed forces.

Professor Neil Greenberg, military lead at the Royal College of Nursing, said: "The fact that we take people into the armed services who are perhaps at times a little bit more likely to be aggressive or impulsive than the general population means we have to do the right thing in trying to support them when they have difficulties - both in service and, importantly, when they leave service and get into trouble with the law."

The review by Conservative MP Stephen Phillips QC was published as part of the government's Armed Forces Covenant, which sets out the relationship between the UK and its military.

His report found that veterans were less likely to enter the criminal justice system than other people, but more detail was needed on how many were going to prison.

"We were reassured to find that if you have served in the armed forces, you are actually less likely to find yourself on the wrong side of the law," he said.

"But we cannot lose sight of the needs of the minority of veterans who do end up in the criminal justice system.

"That's why it is vital for them, their families, and our communities that more is done to look at who they are and how we can best support them."

He said the system was failing to identify far too many veterans because either the question was not asked or they were reluctant to give such information.

Shadow justice secretary Sadiq Khan welcomed the report's recommendations.

He said: "We have been campaigning on this important issue for some time now and it is about time the government did more than pay lip service to the needs of veterans.

"We owe a debt of gratitude to former members of our armed services. Most go on to have constructive lives after leaving the armed services but some can drift into a life of crime and we need to do more to prevent this."

Former Royal Marine Trevor Philpott, founder of the Veterans Change Partnership - a project aimed at helping offenders who are former servicemen or women - said more needed to be done to help people adjust to civilian life when they leave the forces.

He said: "Because they put their lives on the line for us, we owe them in helping them to make that transition back into civilian life, into a more productive life."

Offenders' families will also be offered support, Mr Grayling said


Looks like the government are hitting new lows in hero worship when squaddies can get special treatment even after having committed crimes severe enough to warrant prison. I'm all for rehabilitation being a focus of imprisonment but the allocation of significant funding purely on a former employment role in this vein is ridiculous. I highly doubt we're going to be seeing doctors, nurses, etc who have served our society to a much better degree and end up in prison given the same special treatment (nor should we)

Do you agree or disagree with this?

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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:19 pm

*shrugs* I'm not seeing the problem with this.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:19 pm

Discounting the idea that veterans are heroes that the nation owes some infinite debt to, I don't see why they should be treated any differently by the prison system than people from any other line of work. Which makes me wonder why this proposal exists.
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Postby Laerod » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:21 pm

Well that seems like a terrible idea. Not only does it create unfairness in the treatment and/or rehabilitation of criminals, preferential treatment, according to just about everything I've read by former inmates, tends to earn the recipient all sorts of trouble from other inmates.

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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:22 pm

Ifreann wrote:Discounting the idea that veterans are heroes that the nation owes some infinite debt to, I don't see why they should be treated any differently by the prison system than people from any other line of work. Which makes me wonder why this proposal exists.


Because life in the armed forces is very different from life outside. It can be difficult for some people to acclimatise. Offering extra support to those who are having this difficulty seems like a sensible way to approach reducing recidivism.

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Postby Portomellow » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:25 pm

Ifreann wrote:Discounting the idea that veterans are heroes that the nation owes some infinite debt to, I don't see why they should be treated any differently by the prison system than people from any other line of work. Which makes me wonder why this proposal exists.


Grabbing attention and votes from idiots who are all about "OUR LADS!!!!"

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Portomellow
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Postby Portomellow » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:26 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Discounting the idea that veterans are heroes that the nation owes some infinite debt to, I don't see why they should be treated any differently by the prison system than people from any other line of work. Which makes me wonder why this proposal exists.


Because life in the armed forces is very different from life outside. It can be difficult for some people to acclimatise. Offering extra support to those who are having this difficulty seems like a sensible way to approach reducing recidivism.


And life outside the armed forces is homogenous clearly.

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Postby Greed and Death » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:34 pm

Ifreann wrote:Discounting the idea that veterans are heroes that the nation owes some infinite debt to, I don't see why they should be treated any differently by the prison system than people from any other line of work. Which makes me wonder why this proposal exists.

Often times the underlying reason for their legal troubles is related to traumatic experiences faced in the service.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:34 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Discounting the idea that veterans are heroes that the nation owes some infinite debt to, I don't see why they should be treated any differently by the prison system than people from any other line of work. Which makes me wonder why this proposal exists.


Because life in the armed forces is very different from life outside. It can be difficult for some people to acclimatise. Offering extra support to those who are having this difficulty seems like a sensible way to approach reducing recidivism.

That sounds like something that should be done when soldiers leave the force instead of when they enter prison.
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Postby Portomellow » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:36 pm

greed and death wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Discounting the idea that veterans are heroes that the nation owes some infinite debt to, I don't see why they should be treated any differently by the prison system than people from any other line of work. Which makes me wonder why this proposal exists.

Often times the underlying reason for their legal troubles is related to traumatic experiences faced in the service.


General prison population description there.

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Postby Greed and Death » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:44 pm

Portomellow wrote:
greed and death wrote:Often times the underlying reason for their legal troubles is related to traumatic experiences faced in the service.


General prison population description there.

When you have a particular group the who have faced a very similar trauma it is efficient to treat all of them.
Also the trauma faced in service differs from other traumas because the government is the one that put the person in a position to be traumatized.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:47 pm

greed and death wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Discounting the idea that veterans are heroes that the nation owes some infinite debt to, I don't see why they should be treated any differently by the prison system than people from any other line of work. Which makes me wonder why this proposal exists.

Often times the underlying reason for their legal troubles is related to traumatic experiences faced in the service.

Right, and I imagine psychiatric and psychological help would be appropriate in such a situation. I imagine that's true of criminals who were never in the armed forces too.
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Postby Laerod » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:52 pm

greed and death wrote:
Portomellow wrote:
General prison population description there.

When you have a particular group the who have faced a very similar trauma it is efficient to treat all of them.
Also the trauma faced in service differs from other traumas because the government is the one that put the person in a position to be traumatized.

A government has a duty towards all those under its care. If more can be done to rehabilitate individuals, by all means let more be done. Military service being the deciding factor is largely nonsensical; the key factor should be the likelihood of rehabilitation. I find the idea that someone like Sergeant Blackman should receive more aid than an abuse victim that murdered their tormentor distasteful. You can argue that both have been failed by their government, but only one apparently warrants special care.

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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:52 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Because life in the armed forces is very different from life outside. It can be difficult for some people to acclimatise. Offering extra support to those who are having this difficulty seems like a sensible way to approach reducing recidivism.

That sounds like something that should be done when soldiers leave the force instead of when they enter prison.


It is. But if it doesn't work then we should just give up?

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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:54 pm

Laerod wrote:
greed and death wrote:When you have a particular group the who have faced a very similar trauma it is efficient to treat all of them.
Also the trauma faced in service differs from other traumas because the government is the one that put the person in a position to be traumatized.

A government has a duty towards all those under its care. If more can be done to rehabilitate individuals, by all means let more be done. Military service being the deciding factor is largely nonsensical; the key factor should be the likelihood of rehabilitation. I find the idea that someone like Sergeant Blackman should receive more aid than an abuse victim that murdered their tormentor distasteful. You can argue that both have been failed by their government, but only one apparently warrants special care.


Who said anything about more support? This is about ex-service members getting a specific rehabilitation program.

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Postby Laerod » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:55 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Laerod wrote:A government has a duty towards all those under its care. If more can be done to rehabilitate individuals, by all means let more be done. Military service being the deciding factor is largely nonsensical; the key factor should be the likelihood of rehabilitation. I find the idea that someone like Sergeant Blackman should receive more aid than an abuse victim that murdered their tormentor distasteful. You can argue that both have been failed by their government, but only one apparently warrants special care.


Who said anything about more support? This is about ex-service members getting a specific rehabilitation program.

^

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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:57 pm

Laerod wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Who said anything about more support? This is about ex-service members getting a specific rehabilitation program.

^


Specific doesn't mean more, it means different. Or do you think the British prison system doesn't bother with that sort of thing for the general population?

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Portomellow
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Postby Portomellow » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:58 pm

greed and death wrote:
Portomellow wrote:
General prison population description there.

When you have a particular group the who have faced a very similar trauma it is efficient to treat all of them.
Also the trauma faced in service differs from other traumas because the government is the one that put the person in a position to be traumatized.


It was my understanding that conscription wasn't on the go here these days.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:02 pm

greed and death wrote:
Portomellow wrote:
General prison population description there.

When you have a particular group the who have faced a very similar trauma it is efficient to treat all of them.
Also the trauma faced in service differs from other traumas because the government is the one that put the person in a position to be traumatized.

This, again, sounds like something that should be targeted at soldiers leaving the force, or possibly returning from combat, rather than soldiers entering prison.


Fartsniffage wrote:
Ifreann wrote:That sounds like something that should be done when soldiers leave the force instead of when they enter prison.


It is. But if it doesn't work then we should just give up?

Of course not. We shouldn't be giving up on anyone who goes into prison. But former soldiers are hardly the only people in prison who need to learn or re-learn how to function in society. Former soldiers are hardly the only people in prison with psychological problems.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:05 pm

Ifreann wrote:Of course not. We shouldn't be giving up on anyone who goes into prison. But former soldiers are hardly the only people in prison who need to learn or re-learn how to function in society. Former soldiers are hardly the only people in prison with psychological problems.


Would you agree that, as far as is reasonable and possible, that rehabilitation in prisons should be based on the needs of the individual?

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Postby Laerod » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:06 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Laerod wrote:^


Specific doesn't mean more, it means different. Or do you think the British prison system doesn't bother with that sort of thing for the general population?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an additional program specifically targetting former servicemen and -women not constitute more? It would be something that regular inmates aren't qualified for, ergo former soldiers would be receiving what would colloquially be referred to as "more" support here.

And yes, I do think that if the government feels it isn't already doing enough to rehabilitate former veterans, then it's clearly not doing enough to rehabilitate all inmates. PTSD isn't limited to soldiers, and if that was receiving the attention in rehabilitation that it deserved, then the government wouldn't bother creating this program. Either the program is unnecessary, because the soldiers are already being treated, or it's unfair, because soldiers will be receiving preferrential treatment that others are apparently being denied.

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Postby Napkiraly » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:16 pm

Portomellow wrote:
greed and death wrote:When you have a particular group the who have faced a very similar trauma it is efficient to treat all of them.
Also the trauma faced in service differs from other traumas because the government is the one that put the person in a position to be traumatized.


It was my understanding that conscription wasn't on the go here these days.

Your point?

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Postby Union Of Canadorian Socialists Republic » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:18 pm

Does hero worship know no limits?

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Portomellow
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Postby Portomellow » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:19 pm

Napkiraly wrote:
Portomellow wrote:
It was my understanding that conscription wasn't on the go here these days.

Your point?


If someone signed up for combat positions they put themselves in a position to be traumatised. They deserve good quality healthcare after the fact because they're UK residents not because they're squaddies.

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Postby Napkiraly » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:23 pm

Portomellow wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:Your point?


If someone signed up for combat positions they put themselves in a position to be traumatised. They deserve good quality healthcare after the fact because they're UK residents not because they're squaddies.

Combat veterans will always require some amount of special attention in their care simply due to the realities and consequences of warfare. Being a volunteer soldier doesn't negate that.

That said, the government should really be focused on rehabilitating nearly all prisoners. So rather this should be part of a larger rehabilitation package for the prison population.
Last edited by Napkiraly on Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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