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(USA) A Conservative Case for Universal Health Coverage

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:51 pm
by Rhodisia
Hello NSG, Rhodisia here. I describe myself as a social conservative, but see some very clear arguments for universal health coverage. This thread is intended to encourage debate and the free exchange of ideas regarding healthcare. Here is my conservative case for universal health coverage:

1. The current healthcare system, as it stands, is woefully inefficient. It's a national shame that we allow this system to perpetuate.

As a percentage of GDP, we outspend every other country on healthcare through private insurers, then again in government programs like Medicare and Medicaid, but our quality of healthcare is shameful - especially pursuant to treatable and preventable conditions. We consistently fall behind Canada, a country with universal coverage and our proverbial "little brother", in three crucial areas: in quality of care, in accessibility, and in cost. This is also true in almost all European countries. Think about it: we're a world power, and we're three hundred million strong, but we can't even make sure our citizens recover from illnesses? That is ridiculous, and the fact that we as Americans allow this to continue is shameful.

2. The current American mindset with healthcare is penny-wise and dollar-foolish.

Going back to 1776, the entire American Revolution started because of taxes. We as a nation clearly don't like taxes - but at the same time, we allow ourselves, our children, and our elderly to get sick and die from entirely curable diseases. It is far better to plan for 40 or 50 years down the line, when the next generation of Americans are in power, and we're old and fat and sick and need a doctor, than to worry about short-term ROI and taxes. I for one would much rather be taxed slightly higher than to worry about my future regarding health coverage.

3. We have certain religious and moral imperatives to take care of our own citizens - including the poor, the elderly, the disabled and the mentally unstable.

If some of my fellow American conservatives relentlessly insist that America is a Christian nation (which it isn't), then whatever happened to Ephesians 4:32? You know, "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you?" If anything, the current attitude of calling universal health coverage "communism" is Gluttony - wanting to constantly stuff your face, but never leaving anything for the disadvantaged segments of society. If we continue to call ourselves a Christian nation, then I think it is better that we start living to some of those ideals. That, and the fact that allowing our citizens to die from lack of medical attention is morally wrong.

4. Economies of scale inherently favor a single-payer system.

Any socioeconomic institution benefits from having a larger number of participants rather than few. Healthcare is no exception to this economic law.

5. A single-payer system would reduce the number of government personnel needed to administer it - thus keeping the government from expanding.

Even when accounting for population differences, Canada - which has had a single-payer system since 1984 - still has fewer government personnel administering the funds necessary to provide universal health coverage. Compare that to the US, where our patchwork system of private insurers, Medicare, Obamacare and other laws make it very unruly to administer - for coverage that still doesn't reach our most vulnerable citizens.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:55 pm
by Confederate Ramenia
Unfortunately our current two-party system doesn't care about people's health or health care. We have the stupid old system (you need insurance, you can't afford insurance) or stupid Obamacare (you need insurance, you can't afford insurance, you are forced to buy insurance).

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:56 pm
by Othelos
Another important point - if we can end personal medical debt (a HUGE portion of debt in the US), the economy would improve.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:59 pm
by Vazdaria
Rhodisia wrote:Hello NSG, Rhodisia here. I describe myself as a social conservative, but see some very clear arguments for universal health coverage. This thread is intended to encourage debate and the free exchange of ideas regarding healthcare. Here is my conservative case for universal health coverage:

1. The current healthcare system, as it stands, is woefully inefficient. It's a national shame that we allow this system to perpetuate.

As a percentage of GDP, we outspend every other country on healthcare through private insurers, then again in government programs like Medicare and Medicaid, but our quality of healthcare is shameful - especially pursuant to treatable and preventable conditions. We consistently fall behind Canada, a country with universal coverage and our proverbial "little brother", in three crucial areas: in quality of care, in accessibility, and in cost. This is also true in almost all European countries. Think about it: we're a world power, and we're three hundred million strong, but we can't even make sure our citizens recover from illnesses? That is ridiculous, and the fact that we as Americans allow this to continue is shameful.

2. The current American mindset with healthcare is penny-wise and dollar-foolish.

Going back to 1776, the entire American Revolution started because of taxes. We as a nation clearly don't like taxes - but at the same time, we allow ourselves, our children, and our elderly to get sick and die from entirely curable diseases. It is far better to plan for 40 or 50 years down the line, when the next generation of Americans are in power, and we're old and fat and sick and need a doctor, than to worry about short-term ROI and taxes. I for one would much rather be taxed slightly higher than to worry about my future regarding health coverage.

3. We have certain religious and moral imperatives to take care of our own citizens - including the poor, the elderly, the disabled and the mentally unstable.

If some of my fellow American conservatives relentlessly insist that America is a Christian nation (which it isn't), then whatever happened to Ephesians 4:32? You know, "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you?" If anything, the current attitude of calling universal health coverage "communism" is Gluttony - wanting to constantly stuff your face, but never leaving anything for the disadvantaged segments of society. If we continue to call ourselves a Christian nation, then I think it is better that we start living to some of those ideals. That, and the fact that allowing our citizens to die from lack of medical attention is morally wrong.

4. Economies of scale inherently favor a single-payer system.

Any socioeconomic institution benefits from having a larger number of participants rather than few. Healthcare is no exception to this economic law.

5. A single-payer system would reduce the number of government personnel needed to administer it - thus keeping the government from expanding.

Even when accounting for population differences, Canada - which has had a single-payer system since 1984 - still has fewer government personnel administering the funds necessary to provide universal health coverage. Compare that to the US, where our patchwork system of private insurers, Medicare, Obamacare and other laws make it very unruly to administer - for coverage that still doesn't reach our most vulnerable citizens.

Are you quite certain you're conservative? :eyebrow: Because you sound very liberal.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:04 pm
by Rhodisia
Vazdaria wrote:Are you quite certain you're conservative? :eyebrow: Because you sound very liberal.

Yes actually. I'm more conservative or libertarian than most of my peers, but I see the liberal cause of universal health coverage as one that's worth it for the overwhelming majority of Americans. For all its faults, I love my country, and I want us to be the best that we can.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:08 pm
by Kiribati-Tarawa
Social conservatism has nothing to do with universal healthcare. Fiscal conservatives are the ones opposed to it.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:10 pm
by Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Vazdaria wrote:Are you quite certain you're conservative? :eyebrow: Because you sound very liberal.

Rhodisia is as liberal as I'm a fascist. :eyebrow:

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:13 pm
by Sunarctica
Why can't the United States' government just decrease their Defense Budget massively, establish a system of Universal Healthcare, and relocate that spending towards the new healthcare system? Privatized healthcare is horridly inefficient.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:13 pm
by Tribal Germania (Ancient)
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Vazdaria wrote:Are you quite certain you're conservative? :eyebrow: Because you sound very liberal.

Rhodisia is as liberal as I'm a fascist. :eyebrow:

So, Rhodisia is an ultra-liberal? Doesn't seem like it.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:17 pm
by WestRedMaple
Do we get universal payment to go with it?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:22 pm
by Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Tribal Germania wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Rhodisia is as liberal as I'm a fascist. :eyebrow:

So, Rhodisia is an ultra-liberal? Doesn't seem like it.

:rofl: Get real

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:30 pm
by Emerald-Springs
Philosophically you have valid points, and I'm inclined to agree with you that conservatives with religious and transcendental beliefs should take an approach to healthcare that is inspired more by the teachings of their churches and less by the Church of the Invisible hand.

The principal objection that I have to a single-payer healthcare system is that it gives advocates of the "nanny-state", if you'll pardon the term, a solid argument to regulate a lot of what individuals choose to do with their bodies: "It's a man's right to smoke/drink/eat a high cholesterol diet/drive an SUV" -- "But the rest of us have to pay for all of the additional medical care that those activities incur. Your choices raise our taxes." I think a public option would be a better middle way, but I admit to knowing jack-squat about the relative economic consequences of either plan.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:31 pm
by Murkwood
> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:33 pm
by Communist Volkstrad
Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?

Universal Healthcare =/= Socialism.
It's an element of Socialism, but one can be capitalist and still have it.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:33 pm
by Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Murkwood wrote:> Advocates Socialism

You keep using that word... I don't think you really know what it means...

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:33 pm
by District XIV
Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?

Kiribati-Tarawa wrote:Social conservatism has nothing to do with universal healthcare. Fiscal conservatives are the ones opposed to it.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:35 pm
by Soldati Senza Confini
Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?


Because Universal Healthcare is not socialism.

Otherwise you'd also be against Social Security.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:35 pm
by Murkwood
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Murkwood wrote:> Advocates Socialism

You keep using that word... I don't think you really know what it means...

Yeah, okay. :roll:

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:36 pm
by Murkwood
Soldati senza confini wrote:
Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?


Because Universal Healthcare is not socialism.

Otherwise you'd also be against Social Security.

Who says I'm not?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:36 pm
by Soldati Senza Confini
Murkwood wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
Because Universal Healthcare is not socialism.

Otherwise you'd also be against Social Security.

Who says I'm not?


I dunno, are you against getting money when you retire?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:40 pm
by Soviet Haaregrad
Murkwood wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:You keep using that word... I don't think you really know what it means...

Yeah, okay. :roll:


Being snarky and wrong is worse than just being wrong.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:43 pm
by Brunsk
Vazdaria wrote:
Rhodisia wrote:Hello NSG, Rhodisia here. I describe myself as a social conservative, but see some very clear arguments for universal health coverage. This thread is intended to encourage debate and the free exchange of ideas regarding healthcare. Here is my conservative case for universal health coverage:
1. The current healthcare system, as it stands, is woefully inefficient. It's a national shame that we allow this system to perpetuate.

As a percentage of GDP, we outspend every other country on healthcare through private insurers, then again in government programs like Medicare and Medicaid, but our quality of healthcare is shameful - especially pursuant to treatable and preventable conditions. We consistently fall behind Canada, a country with universal coverage and our proverbial "little brother", in three crucial areas: in quality of care, in accessibility, and in cost. This is also true in almost all European countries. Think about it: we're a world power, and we're three hundred million strong, but we can't even make sure our citizens recover from illnesses? That is ridiculous, and the fact that we as Americans allow this to continue is shameful.

2. The current American mindset with healthcare is penny-wise and dollar-foolish.

Going back to 1776, the entire American Revolution started because of taxes. We as a nation clearly don't like taxes - but at the same time, we allow ourselves, our children, and our elderly to get sick and die from entirely curable diseases. It is far better to plan for 40 or 50 years down the line, when the next generation of Americans are in power, and we're old and fat and sick and need a doctor, than to worry about short-term ROI and taxes. I for one would much rather be taxed slightly higher than to worry about my future regarding health coverage.

3. We have certain religious and moral imperatives to take care of our own citizens - including the poor, the elderly, the disabled and the mentally unstable.

If some of my fellow American conservatives relentlessly insist that America is a Christian nation (which it isn't), then whatever happened to Ephesians 4:32? You know, "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you?" If anything, the current attitude of calling universal health coverage "communism" is Gluttony - wanting to constantly stuff your face, but never leaving anything for the disadvantaged segments of society. If we continue to call ourselves a Christian nation, then I think it is better that we start living to some of those ideals. That, and the fact that allowing our citizens to die from lack of medical attention is morally wrong.

4. Economies of scale inherently favor a single-payer system.

Any socioeconomic institution benefits from having a larger number of participants rather than few. Healthcare is no exception to this economic law.

5. A single-payer system would reduce the number of government personnel needed to administer it - thus keeping the government from expanding.

Even when accounting for population differences, Canada - which has had a single-payer system since 1984 - still has fewer government personnel administering the funds necessary to provide universal health coverage. Compare that to the US, where our patchwork system of private insurers, Medicare, Obamacare and other laws make it very unruly to administer - for coverage that still doesn't reach our most vulnerable citizens
.

Are you quite certain you're conservative? :eyebrow: Because you sound very liberal.


I thoroughly agree. I do not think you are as conservative as you think you are.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:43 pm
by Fortschritte
Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?


Oh, give me a break. You know well that universal healthcare isn't socialism. That's a load of malarkey.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:44 pm
by Soldati Senza Confini
Fortschritte wrote:
Murkwood wrote:> "Conservative"
> Advocates Socialism


Now how does that work?


Oh, give me a break. You know well that universal healthcare isn't socialism. That's a load of malarkey.


Actually, I think he truly believes it.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:45 pm
by The Orson Empire
Vazdaria wrote:
Rhodisia wrote:Hello NSG, Rhodisia here. I describe myself as a social conservative, but see some very clear arguments for universal health coverage. This thread is intended to encourage debate and the free exchange of ideas regarding healthcare. Here is my conservative case for universal health coverage:

1. The current healthcare system, as it stands, is woefully inefficient. It's a national shame that we allow this system to perpetuate.

As a percentage of GDP, we outspend every other country on healthcare through private insurers, then again in government programs like Medicare and Medicaid, but our quality of healthcare is shameful - especially pursuant to treatable and preventable conditions. We consistently fall behind Canada, a country with universal coverage and our proverbial "little brother", in three crucial areas: in quality of care, in accessibility, and in cost. This is also true in almost all European countries. Think about it: we're a world power, and we're three hundred million strong, but we can't even make sure our citizens recover from illnesses? That is ridiculous, and the fact that we as Americans allow this to continue is shameful.

2. The current American mindset with healthcare is penny-wise and dollar-foolish.

Going back to 1776, the entire American Revolution started because of taxes. We as a nation clearly don't like taxes - but at the same time, we allow ourselves, our children, and our elderly to get sick and die from entirely curable diseases. It is far better to plan for 40 or 50 years down the line, when the next generation of Americans are in power, and we're old and fat and sick and need a doctor, than to worry about short-term ROI and taxes. I for one would much rather be taxed slightly higher than to worry about my future regarding health coverage.

3. We have certain religious and moral imperatives to take care of our own citizens - including the poor, the elderly, the disabled and the mentally unstable.

If some of my fellow American conservatives relentlessly insist that America is a Christian nation (which it isn't), then whatever happened to Ephesians 4:32? You know, "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you?" If anything, the current attitude of calling universal health coverage "communism" is Gluttony - wanting to constantly stuff your face, but never leaving anything for the disadvantaged segments of society. If we continue to call ourselves a Christian nation, then I think it is better that we start living to some of those ideals. That, and the fact that allowing our citizens to die from lack of medical attention is morally wrong.

4. Economies of scale inherently favor a single-payer system.

Any socioeconomic institution benefits from having a larger number of participants rather than few. Healthcare is no exception to this economic law.

5. A single-payer system would reduce the number of government personnel needed to administer it - thus keeping the government from expanding.

Even when accounting for population differences, Canada - which has had a single-payer system since 1984 - still has fewer government personnel administering the funds necessary to provide universal health coverage. Compare that to the US, where our patchwork system of private insurers, Medicare, Obamacare and other laws make it very unruly to administer - for coverage that still doesn't reach our most vulnerable citizens.

Are you quite certain you're conservative? :eyebrow: Because you sound very liberal.

He's likely not a Christian Fundamentalist, which most extreme Republicans are.