Regarding catcalling...

[Ostroeuropa]

Day after day? I'll agree on that. However, if it happens one time, then that's not harassment. Depends on if the person is doing this to the same person over and over again, if you want to get technical.

if it only ever happened to a woman once in her life that a man whistles at her then she should indeed get over it.

but that's not what happens.

its actionable harassment if the same man goes out of his way to harass the same woman every day. its still harassment if a woman has to endure it multiple times from multiple men.

Have I been harassed by women because i've had to turn down a bunch over the course of my life time?
Fuck no, that's ridiculous.
I have no idea how you can argue this.

Fuck, i've been to a few parties where i've been hit on a couple of times by different people. Does that mean I was harassed?
Would it change if I suddenly got terrified and assumed they were going to rape me or something?
Would it matter if it was males hitting on me? Because sometimes it is. Am I being harassed then?

If its the same guy, yes, it's harassment.

[Ashmoria]

Okay, so I think we can reasonably agree that catcalling happens pretty often, even if we may disagree on exactly how often. Now the question becomes what to do about it.

Some would suggest making a law against it. Well, trouble with that is you're picking and choosing about what speech counts as free speech. The only other precedent we have to follow is, "if you threaten someone," but feeling threatened and actually BEING threatened are different things. Some people "feel" threatened by seeing someone wearing a hoodie. Others may "feel" threatened by someone wearing a burka. Yet clearly in each case we've sided with freedom of expression over subjectively "feeling" threatened. So why should flirtations on the street be treated any differently?

If catcalling is banned, how am I going to be able to gather up my cats when it's time to go to the vet's office?

pffff calling cats is useless. I shake the bottle of cat treats in order to get my cat to come back into the house.

[Romalae]

I call my cat all the time. The only problem with it I can see is that it hardly comes to me.

Agreed. This thread is just going on about the cat's gender. The real problem is that cats do not tend to come when you call them because they are racist against the human race.

[The Black Forrest]

If catcalling is banned, how am I going to be able to gather up my cats when it's time to go to the vet's office?

pffff calling cats is useless. I shake the bottle of cat treats in order to get my cat to come back into the house.

Even then that doesn't always work. I think my little bitch takes her time because she knows I want to go to bed.

[Scomagia]

"Hey bitch, I wanna fuck your ass!"

Yep, totally not harassment. *nods*

"harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker. (See: harass, sexual harassment)"

" the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment

You're intentionally using the wrong definition. Intellectual dishonesty is bad, mkay?

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Is catcalling inappropriate? Yes.
Should it be illegal? Fuck no.

[Ashmoria]

if it only ever happened to a woman once in her life that a man whistles at her then she should indeed get over it.

but that's not what happens.

its actionable harassment if the same man goes out of his way to harass the same woman every day. its still harassment if a woman has to endure it multiple times from multiple men.

Have I been harassed by women because i've had to turn down a bunch over the course of my life time?
Fuck no, that's ridiculous.
I have no idea how you can argue this.

Fuck, i've been to a few parties where i've been hit on a couple of times by different people. Does that mean I was harassed?
Would it change if I suddenly got terrified and assumed they were going to rape me or something?
Would it matter if it was males hitting on me? Because sometimes it is. Am I being harassed then?

If its the same guy, yes, it's harassment.

I don't know what has happened to you in your life so I cant judge it.

[Pan-America under the United States]

"harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker. (See: harass, sexual harassment)"

" the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment

You're intentionally using the wrong definition. Intellectual dishonesty is bad, mkay?

"Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors.[1] "

"Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively dominate others."

"Coercion /koʊˈɜrʃən/ is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force"

"Where laws surrounding sexual harassment exist, they generally do not prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or minor isolated incidents."

[Karlom-Teravanyia]

Is catcalling inappropriate? Yes.
Should it be illegal? Fuck no.

We all agree it shouldn't be illegal, however some of us are inclined to believe that it's a compliment of some sort.

[Ostroeuropa]

Have I been harassed by women because i've had to turn down a bunch over the course of my life time?
Fuck no, that's ridiculous.
I have no idea how you can argue this.

Fuck, i've been to a few parties where i've been hit on a couple of times by different people. Does that mean I was harassed?
Would it change if I suddenly got terrified and assumed they were going to rape me or something?
Would it matter if it was males hitting on me? Because sometimes it is. Am I being harassed then?

If its the same guy, yes, it's harassment.

I don't know what has happened to you in your life so I cant judge it.

That's a fair response tbh.
My point is, calling it "Harassment" when it comes from multiple sources is really, really silly. It means most of us have been harassed by society, and frankly, a lot of those "Harassments" are necessary because in the middle of them you get one or two who you think
"Hm, yeh. i'll fuck you, lets go."

[Ashmoria]

pffff calling cats is useless. I shake the bottle of cat treats in order to get my cat to come back into the house.

Even then that doesn't always work. I think my little bitch takes her time because she knows I want to go to bed.

oh too true

there are times when I have accidentally let my cat out after dark and when I get her back to the door with the bottle shaking thing she suddenly changes her mind and runs away into the dark.

it makes me crazy.

[Scomagia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment

You're intentionally using the wrong definition. Intellectual dishonesty is bad, mkay?

"Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors.[1] "

"Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively dominate others."

"Coercion /koʊˈɜrʃən/ is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force"

"Where laws surrounding sexual harassment exist, they generally do not prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or minor isolated incidents."

"The incident may be one time occurrence but more often it has a type of repetitiveness."
"Street harasser: Another type of sexual harassment performed in public places by strangers. Street harassment includes verbal and nonverbal behavior, remarks that are frequently sexual in nature and comment on physical appearance or a person's presence in public"

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Is catcalling inappropriate? Yes.
Should it be illegal? Fuck no.

We all agree it shouldn't be illegal, however some of us are inclined to believe that it's a compliment of some sort.

I can see that people could view it as complimenting, but I view it as rude and unprofessional. I certainly wouldn't want that kind of attention in public.

[Ashmoria]

I don't know what has happened to you in your life so I cant judge it.

That's a fair response tbh.
My point is, calling it "Harassment" when it comes from multiple sources is really, really silly. It means most of us have been harassed by society, and frankly, a lot of those "Harassments" are necessary because in the middle of them you get one or two who you think
"Hm, yeh. i'll fuck you, lets go."

and you are not realizing that for some women the harassment is severe.

just like not all men harass--the vast majority of men don't--not all women have pleasant experiences with catcalls.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's a fair response tbh.
My point is, calling it "Harassment" when it comes from multiple sources is really, really silly. It means most of us have been harassed by society, and frankly, a lot of those "Harassments" are necessary because in the middle of them you get one or two who you think
"Hm, yeh. i'll fuck you, lets go."

and you are not realizing that for some women the harassment is severe.

just like not all men harass--the vast majority of men don't--not all women have pleasant experiences with catcalls.

I don't disagree.
Problem is, that's kind of their problem that they have to deal with. Nobody elses.
If I don't like peanuts and people offer me them, I can't flip my shit and say
"Don't you know that some people don't like peanuts!? YOU SHOULD NEVER OFFER ANYONE ANY!!!!"

It's a stupid idea. The only thing that can be done for those women is to let them know that, hey, maybe you should tell people
"I kind of don't like catcalling." when they try it on you, or "No thanks, not my type." or something.

[Imsogone]

ohforgodssake because a woman walks down the street like it was walking the gauntlet. even if its one disturbing comment per man it is a constant stream of disturbing comments.

that's harassment.

No it isn't.
That's having to deal with being a sexually desirable person.
Whining about privilege because it backfires sometimes.
I'm sure it's very tedious. That's not fucking harassment.
It's tedium.

If it just happened to sexually desirable women (because I don't hear much about men harassing men that way) it would still be harassment. The problem is, it happens to all women, old women, young women, underage girls, homely women, pregnant women, Mama June. The words are different, the effect is the same.

"Hey, old lady, get your ugly ass away from here." - I've heard that before.
"Hey, look at the fat bitch. Hey fatty, you're blocking the view." - I've heard that, too.

I get it, you don't like women - I don't know why (maybe your mommy didn't hug you enough when you were a baby) and I really don't want to. But you could try to be a bit empathic - you know, put yourself in the other's place for a moment. Would you feel particularly secure if, when you walked down the street, you were hit with a barrage of such "tedious" words on a daily basis? Would it please you? Would you find it flattering? Would the constant "tedious" words build you up or wear you down? Would you view the gauntlet with dread day after day after day after day after day...?

[Pan-America under the United States]

"Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors.[1] "

"Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively dominate others."

"Coercion /koʊˈɜrʃən/ is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force"

"Where laws surrounding sexual harassment exist, they generally do not prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or minor isolated incidents."

"The incident may be one time occurrence but more often it has a type of repetitiveness."

So, what does that have to do with my post, exactly? You're bringing up sexual harassment, my point is that simple comments on the street isn't harassment. That doesn't exactly disprove my post.

"Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively dominate others."

"Coercion /koʊˈɜrʃən/ is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force"

"Where laws surrounding sexual harassment exist, they generally do not prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or minor isolated incidents."

Simple comments doesn't qualify as harassment, they're not threatening to do anything. "Nice ass" and "I'd screw you" isn't a threat. Nor is it coercion. So, it's not harassment.

If you want to say "I'm going to rape you" or "You'll have sex with me one way or another" then that's another story all together, that's a threat. That is harassment.

EDIT: Street harasser seems a lot like slang. Slang doesn't = definition.

[Greed and Death]

I dunno

on the one hand you have free speech and the difficulty of crafting a reasonable law that would only affect the bad actors.

on the other hand you have women being harassed day after day while walking down the street, making walking down the street an unpleasant experience.

I see the only rational solution being men calling out other men for being disgusting on the street.

Yes it would be difficult to restrict speech, however you could expand stalking laws so continued conversation after an individual has made it clear he orshe does not wish a conversation may be acceptable if it were narrowly tailored enough.


Men calling men out ? that violates the bro code. Next you will say my boss can't have company trips to the strip club.

[The Emerald Dragon]

Okay, so I think we can reasonably agree that catcalling happens pretty often, even if we may disagree on exactly how often. Now the question becomes what to do about it.

Some would suggest making a law against it. Well, trouble with that is you're picking and choosing about what speech counts as free speech. The only other precedent we have to follow is, "if you threaten someone," but feeling threatened and actually BEING threatened are different things. Some people "feel" threatened by seeing someone wearing a hoodie. Others may "feel" threatened by someone wearing a burka. Yet clearly in each case we've sided with freedom of expression over subjectively "feeling" threatened. So why should flirtations on the street be treated any differently?

I'm going to sound stupid here, but what's a catcall?

Enlighten me, elders of the NSG community.

[Ostroeuropa]

I dunno

on the one hand you have free speech and the difficulty of crafting a reasonable law that would only affect the bad actors.

on the other hand you have women being harassed day after day while walking down the street, making walking down the street an unpleasant experience.

I see the only rational solution being men calling out other men for being disgusting on the street.

Yes it would be difficult to restrict speech, however you could expand stalking laws so continued conversation after an individual has made it clear he orshe does not wish a conversation may be acceptable if it were narrowly tailored enough.


Men calling men out ? that violates the bro code. Next you will say my boss can't have company trips to the strip club.

This I would be fine with.
Like I said, if they continue going after you indicate you don't like it, it's definitely harassment.

[Kelinfort]

We should call people out for catcalling and making unwanted sexual advances. A law is very unnecessary and changes little.

[Kryozerkia]

LOL, how is telling someone you'd have sex with them implying rape?

If you're talking about someone following you around, then you're talking about the issue of harassment. It'll no longer be about catcalling.

She's just revealed her bigotry.
The mental link between "Man wants sex with me" and "rape" she has is an example of her sexism. that she thinks it's justified to threaten physical violence against people just makes it even worse.

Condescending is one word that comes to mind. Baiting is another. Since condescension isn't a rule violation and baiting is... *** warned for baiting ***. Why is it baiting? These cat-calls are common forms of sexual harassment that feel threatened. Your comment has no purpose other than to anger those who've been victimized, and those who are potential victims.

[Ostroeuropa]

No it isn't.
That's having to deal with being a sexually desirable person.
Whining about privilege because it backfires sometimes.
I'm sure it's very tedious. That's not fucking harassment.
It's tedium.

If it just happened to sexually desirable women (because I don't hear much about men harassing men that way) it would still be harassment. The problem is, it happens to all women, old women, young women, underage girls, homely women, pregnant women, Mama June. The words are different, the effect is the same.

"Hey, old lady, get your ugly ass away from here." - I've heard that before.
"Hey, look at the fat bitch. Hey fatty, you're blocking the view." - I've heard that, too.

I get it, you don't like women - I don't know why (maybe your mommy didn't hug you enough when you were a baby) and I really don't want to. But you could try to be a bit empathic - you know, put yourself in the other's place for a moment. Would you feel particularly secure if, when you walked down the street, you were hit with a barrage of such "tedious" words on a daily basis? Would it please you? Would you find it flattering? Would the constant "tedious" words build you up or wear you down? Would you view the gauntlet with dread day after day after day after day after day...?

Just because you don't hear it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The male catcalling video shows that it pretty much is an issue of attractiveness.
Now, if you want to talk about people being insulting in public, that's a seperate issue imo.
I agree society has a problem with thinking it's acceptable to insult people (Especially women) based on their appearance. It's a problem with a lot of factors to it, but it's soluble. This isn't how.

[MERIZoC]

Life would be very inconvenient without catcalling. How else would I summon my cats?

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Life would be very inconvenient without catcalling. How else would I summon my cats?

cats are the devil