The Politics Of Respectability

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Some people just desperately want to be offended. Righteous indignation gets them off or something.

It's crazy that I, as an openly gay man, might not want to spend every waking moment foaming at the mouth about my sexuality.

Egads, it's almost as if not all LGBT people are innately built around their sexuality. This is something we must take to the papers immediately, maybe HetRio might get it.

No one wants to be offended. You, far more than me, could be claimed as the person who "wanted to be offended" by saying I'm an ugly, ebul hypocrite before even googling what I'm on about just for a little bit.

It's not about sexuality/gender, it's about power politics. Can you please realize you're talking to someone with an worldview that takes a lot of Communist and anarchist theory as basis?

Crazy, if you don't need to be arsed about that, let me tell you something, you aren't a planet, some people have different realities, and if they have a bigger frustration about you, you should ask yourself if this doesn't might arise from a particular issue they face - as you just said, we are neither monolithic nor monochromatic -, you should not promptly judge why they might say what they do, because being there for everyone means also welcoming the less easily understood, the most harmed, and the ones who are more distant from society's idealization of what they ought to be.

[Conserative Morality]

I'm just saying that before criticizing my politics as bullshit, he should actually familiarize himself with important concepts that lead to it - such as the obvious factor of internalization -, because I'm not one isolated incident of ugly cis-biting monstrosity.

Hell, Wikipedia would be enough of that.

You think he isn't familiar with this? Criticizing someone's posts as bullshit can mean that you don't understand it, sure, but it can also mean that you know it intimately, biblically, and you're disgusted by it. And a little at yourself for knowing it.

[Conserative Morality]

No one wants to be offended. You, far more than me, could be claimed as the person who "wanted to be offended" by saying I'm an ugly, ebul hypocrite before even googling what I'm on about just for a little bit.

This is getting ridiculous. "You don't agree with me so you don't understand"? Try wearing a fedora upside down. You might start a new trend.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Are you suggesting I don't do the same to white nationalists? I've spent the past goddamn week clashing with racists. Do you think that "I'm not as bad" is a good excuse for being bad? To reuse an analogy from another thread, if you're drinking two litres of sulfuric acid instead of six, you're still drinking sulfuric acid (Funnily enough that was in a thread about... racism)

So basically, don't hide behind others. Certainly, you shouldn't use white nationalists as a shield. Step up and defend yourself. Don't cower. It's morally disgusting.

Hmm it's actually an issue to have queer politics problematized as harmful, obstructive, deliberately disrupting and based on personal sentiments when this forum isn't gathered around making it a safe space.

Sure, you want to expand its range of average tolerance? I say we start from where it's due. I'm maybe the single representative of this stuff here. And everybody knows that I bear no personal dislike or bigotry against other groups. It's based on egalitarianism, even if this means I might not take liberalism seriously.

You see, 'learn to value their own kind' suggests an inherent quality of difference that most people reject. Other than who one is attracted to. I've never known a LGBT individual to be radically different from anyone else I've met (I know, I know, anecdotes are not proof), and I really don't think that increased separation is in any way a helpful idea. That's a bit too 70s, you know?

Yeah, non-hetero and trans people do not push for valuing and accepting their own kind. That's why we don't have pride parades and symbolism devoted to, you know, thinking we're beautiful too?

I don't mean it in a nationalist sense. Frankly, that is a bit of a strawman.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

You think he isn't familiar with this? Criticizing someone's posts as bullshit can mean that you don't understand it, sure, but it can also mean that you know it intimately, biblically, and you're disgusted by it. And a little at yourself for knowing it.

Weird, because the thread's title refers to "attempts by marginalised groups to police their own members and show their social values as being continuous and compatible with mainstream values rather than challenging the mainstream for its failure to accept difference", and he took personal offense at my opinions being an attack against their individual similarity in expression and attitudes as those of the mainstream culture, that I also bear (and in a manner that is more harmful to myself and my own identity's validation by others than would be to most other LGBT people, mind you).

[Indira]

On one hand, I can see why the 'as is' approach is generally the desireable attitude, but I don't believe that it should be a get out of jail free card either. After all, you can keep your culture without keeping unwanted negative aspects like forced marriage, homophobia etc.

[Grenartia]

I'm maybe the single representative of this stuff here.

No, you're not. Stop lying. Also, I'd rather you NOT attempt to speak for me, and I'm certain other LGBT+ people here feel the same.

[Conserative Morality]

Hmm it's actually an issue to have queer politics problematized as harmful, obstructive, deliberately disrupting and based on personal sentiments when this forum isn't gathered around making it a safe space.

So because this place doesn't forbid opposing points of view, it's an issue to discuss problems with SJW ideology.

Welcome to the real world, SJW. We actually have to fight for our opinions out here.

Sure, you want to expand its range of average tolerance? I say we start from where it's due. I'm maybe the single representative of this stuff here. And everybody knows that I bear no personal dislike or bigotry against other groups. It's based on egalitarianism, even if this means I might not take liberalism seriously.

Funny. I could've sworn the exact opposite.

Yeah, non-hetero and trans people do not push for valuing and accepting their own kind. That's why we don't have pride parades and symbolism devoted to, you know, thinking we're beautiful too?

Yeah, black people totally don't celebrate their history and culture; and there certainly isn't a whole 'black is beautiful' movement. There aren't a number of ethnic minorities (And in some cases, ethnic majorities) that push for value and acceptance upon inherent qualities of themselves that they can't change but shape perceptions of them. There's no one else out there except non-LGBT individuals and LGBT individuals.

That's not only marginalizing and morally disgusting, but I'm pretty sure it's also pretty racist.

I don't mean it in a nationalist sense. Frankly, that is a bit of a strawman.

So you say things that suggest certain ideas, reinforce them, and then withdraw them. You're as bad a strategist as McClellan.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

No, you're not. Stop lying. Also, I'd rather you NOT attempt to speak for me, and I'm certain other LGBT+ people here feel the same.

Did Conservative Morality ever run on you as being somehow a person who holds "[sexuality as] a defining characteristic for worldviews" in a manner that is "stupid[ly] opinion[ated]" amd "less like fighting for LGBT rights and more like fighting for a very specific worldview"?

Then stop trying to make everything into an excuse for your wahhhhs about how I'm a hipster

[Conserative Morality]

Weird, because the thread's title refers to "attempts by marginalised groups to police their own members and show their social values as being continuous and compatible with mainstream values rather than challenging the mainstream for its failure to accept difference", and he took personal offense at my opinions being an attack against their individual similarity in expression and attitudes as those of the mainstream culture, that I also bear (and in a manner that is more harmful to myself and my own identity's validation by others than would be to most other LGBT people, mind you).

Really? Okay, let's try this:

They're absolute fuckups doing colonization and internalization as spoon-fed to them while actual issues like transphobia and corrective rape are set aside just so they can pay lip service to cis heteros, knowing cis heteros as a group will never think we are exactly like them with their culture, religion and perspective as historically constructed.

So, yeah, fuck those people. Not as much as actual hateful members of the oppressive group but fuck them too.

Yeah. That's really taking personal offense at you're opinions and not at the fact that you basically said a good percentage of the LGBT world were quislings and LGBT people are forever separated from non LGBT people.

[Grenartia]

No, you're not. Stop lying. Also, I'd rather you NOT attempt to speak for me, and I'm certain other LGBT+ people here feel the same.

1. Did Conservative Morality ever run on you as being somehow a person who holds "[sexuality as] a defining characteristic for worldviews" in a manner that is "stupid[ly] opinion[ated]" amd "less like fighting for LGBT rights and more like fighting for a very specific worldview"?

2. Then stop trying to make everything into an excuse for your wahhhhs about how I'm a hipster

1. I have no clue what the fuck you're trying to say here, honestly.

2. Why don't you stop pretending that you speak for all of us in the LGBT+ community here? Like you blatantly did in the post I quoted?

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

So because this place doesn't forbid opposing points of view, it's an issue to discuss problems with SJW ideology.

Welcome to the real world, SJW. We actually have to fight for our opinions out here.

Okay, just making sure if you really wanna do that.

Generally I wait for the "consent" of people in order for them to realize where my opinion view their standing before we actually start engaging.

And don't call me SJW.

Sure, you want to expand its range of average tolerance? I say we start from where it's due. I'm maybe the single representative of this stuff here. And everybody knows that I bear no personal dislike or bigotry against other groups. It's based on egalitarianism, even if this means I might not take liberalism seriously.

Funny. I could've sworn the exact opposite.

Well, you're wrong? I'm actually not uncomfortable with people extremely dissimilar from me speaking as authorities or equals where it's due. I assert stuff in which I have a rightful claim based on lived experience to be a protagonist because people are actually talking about stuff that is more relevant to my continued existence than theirs. There's nothing else to it. That's not toxic identity politics, or if you think so, then that turns lots of things into a blasting of an ideal balanced coexistence that frankly I don't see almost anybody else so eager to embrace.

Yeah, non-hetero and trans people do not push for valuing and accepting their own kind. That's why we don't have pride parades and symbolism devoted to, you know, thinking we're beautiful too?

Yeah, black people totally don't celebrate their history and culture; and there certainly isn't a whole 'black is beautiful' movement. There aren't a number of ethnic minorities (And in some cases, ethnic majorities) that push for value and acceptance upon inherent qualities of themselves that they can't change but shape perceptions of them. There's no one else out there except non-LGBT individuals and LGBT individuals.

That's not only marginalizing and morally disgusting, but I'm pretty sure it's also pretty racist.

I'm not against any forms of pride in general. Hell, maybe even the one of the privileged group to be who they are and still be supportive and empathetic toward others, if/as long as it didn't actually project itself as oppressive.

I don't mean it in a nationalist sense. Frankly, that is a bit of a strawman.

So you say things that suggest certain ideas, reinforce them, and then withdraw them. You're as bad a strategist as McClellan.

I don't know how you think I'm anything close to that.

Maybe a distant reinterpretation that is very libertarian and left-leaning in nature but there's that.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

1. I have no clue what the fuck you're trying to say here, honestly.

2. Why don't you stop pretending that you speak for all of us in the LGBT+ community here? Like you blatantly did in the post I quoted?

2. I don't, see 1

1. Read the whole discussion

I talked about my kind of politics CM and NF branded as radical/abrasive/nationalist/irredentist/whateverson

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Yeah. That's really taking personal offense at you're opinions and not at the fact that you basically said a good percentage of the LGBT world were quislings and LGBT people are forever separated from non LGBT people.

I could pretend we're equal all day but have you ever seen the statistics of hate crimes or institutionalized persecution or the foam-mouthed drivels of major religions about how we're a threat to society or...

I talked about power structures. Rio always talks about power structures. Get a grip, people.

[Grenartia]

1. I have no clue what the fuck you're trying to say here, honestly.

2. Why don't you stop pretending that you speak for all of us in the LGBT+ community here? Like you blatantly did in the post I quoted?

2. I don't, see 1

1. Read the whole discussion

I talked about my kind of politics CM and NF branded as radical/abrasive/nationalist/irredentist/whateverson

2. You did. I saw it with my own two eyes.

1. I did. And I only got lost reading most of your posts.

[Conserative Morality]

Did Conservative Morality ever run on you as being somehow a person who holds "[sexuality as] a defining characteristic for worldviews" in a manner that is "stupid[ly] opinion[ated]" amd "less like fighting for LGBT rights and more like fighting for a very specific worldview"?

Then stop trying to make everything into an excuse for your wahhhhs about how I'm a hipster

If that's distressing to you, you should see what I do to YECs.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

2. You did. I saw it with my own two eyes.

Again, do you have "queer politics problematized as harmful, obstructive, deliberately disrupting and based on personal sentiments" by the average userbase? This is getting tiresome.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Did Conservative Morality ever run on you as being somehow a person who holds "[sexuality as] a defining characteristic for worldviews" in a manner that is "stupid[ly] opinion[ated]" amd "less like fighting for LGBT rights and more like fighting for a very specific worldview"?

Then stop trying to make everything into an excuse for your wahhhhs about how I'm a hipster

If that's distressing to you, you should see what I do to YECs.

The mere comparison is already offensive enough, thanks.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

And I'd really love to argue more but holy shit it's 9:30a.m., I should have been off to sleep 5 hours ago, I'm sorry. Goodbye to y'all.

[Grenartia]

2. You did. I saw it with my own two eyes.

Again, do you have "queer politics problematized as harmful, obstructive, deliberately disrupting and based on personal sentiments" by the average userbase? This is getting tiresome.

Does salty sound blue?

Seriously, that makes about as much sense as what you're asking me. The words are all real English, but the order and usage are totally fucking confusing. I'm pretty sure that's half your problem, is that people can't accurately make heads or tails of what you're trying to say.

[Conserative Morality]

Okay, just making sure if you really wanna do that.

Generally I wait for the "consent" of people in order for them to realize where my opinion view their standing before we actually start engaging.

And don't call me SJW.

Since when do I care about opinions of anti-SJW LGBT people who don't grasp shit of what we talk about because they're too busy arguing in sites where we are just a side issue rather than a central point of discussion and thought?

So... you aren't a SJW, who doesn't care about the opinions of people who aren't SJWs.

And this is a fucking debate forum. There are no applications to fill out, no pillows for the inevitable fall, no safety helmet for crossing the road. Ideas are discussed, dissected, and reassembled with frightening haste and thoroughness. Not always well, mind you.

Well, you're wrong? I'm actually not uncomfortable with people extremely dissimilar from me speaking as authorities or equals where it's due. I assert stuff in which I have a rightful claim based on lived experience to be a protagonist because people are actually talking about stuff that is more relevant to my continued existence than theirs. There's nothing else to it. That's not toxic identity politics, or if you think so, then that turns lots of things into a blasting of an ideal balanced coexistence that frankly I don't see almost anybody else so eager to embrace.

You don't have the right to assert anything without being challenged. People will disagree. People, maybe even people in similar situations, might even disagree! Perhaps someone who's made a study of the situation, or has loved ones in said situation disagree. Shit, maybe someone with no fucking clue what they're talking about will disagree. Assert all you want, but it doesn't mean shit. And trying to pretend that someone disputing your rather aggressive assertions is 'blasting' an 'ideal balanced coexistence' is pathetic.

I'm not against any forms of pride in general. Hell, maybe even the one of the privileged group to be who they are and still be supportive and empathetic toward others, if/as long as it didn't actually project itself as oppressive.

So you're conceding the original point that there isn't an inherent or radical difference between the LGBT and non-LGBT, contrary to your previous claims? Or are you trying to move back to the position that there is an inherent or radical difference and I'm just not seeing it in this particular post?

I don't know how you think I'm anything close to that.

Maybe a distant reinterpretation that is very libertarian and left-leaning in nature but there's that.

McClellan was an American Civil War general who pussyfooted out of just about every major decision he had before him.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Does salty sound blue?

Seriously, that makes about as much sense as what you're asking me. The words are all real English, but the order and usage are totally fucking confusing. I'm pretty sure that's half your problem, is that people can't accurately make heads or tails of what you're trying to say.

-_-

Point is, when I said sole example, I meant edgy stuff people might compare to harmful belief system in their ~generalizations of people~ (and I'm not even sure if they apply to me, but as CM's views indicate, is a common perception).

About all other common forum regulars here are very liberal in their assessment of stuff.

[Conserative Morality]

I could pretend we're equal all day but have you ever seen the statistics of hate crimes or institutionalized persecution or the foam-mouthed drivels of major religions about how we're a threat to society or...

I talked about power structures. Rio always talks about power structures. Get a grip, people.

Yeah, I have. People can and do fight that shit without attacking LGBT people who aren't radical enough, non LGBT allies, and basically everyone who isn't you.

People can reject bigotry without rejecting society and themselves. SJWs like you claim independence of choice, but in the end, it boils down to another society in which people are defined by their labels, regardless of who they are or who they want to be.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

So... you aren't a SJW, who doesn't care about the opinions of people who aren't SJWs.

And this is a fucking debate forum. There are no applications to fill out, no pillows for the inevitable fall, no safety helmet for crossing the road. Ideas are discussed, dissected, and reassembled with frightening haste and thoroughness. Not always well, mind you.

I never said I participate in this common construct of social justice, I just perceive the existing activism against it to be toxic, narrow-minded and harmful.

Similarly, I'm not a feminist, but I notoriously dislike anti-feminism as a movement or attitudes related to it that seem to shape one's attitudes.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Yeah, I have. People can and do fight that shit without attacking LGBT people who aren't radical enough, non LGBT allies, and basically everyone who isn't you.

People can reject bigotry without rejecting society and themselves. SJWs like you claim independence of choice, but in the end, it boils down to another society in which people are defined by their labels, regardless of who they are or who they want to be.

Are you even aware I am not going to have a revolution without all the other identities under the umbrella that are often overlooked by the liberal activism? That I don't trust a "reform of patriarchy" at all? hmmmm