NATION

PASSWORD

The Politics Of Respectability

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Yumyumsuppertime
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 28799
Founded: Jun 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

The Politics Of Respectability

Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:55 am

Inspired by an exchange on another thread.

When nearly any group that has been historically marginalized or oppressed begins to make a concerted and organized attempt to gain equal rights--especially when the group has created a specific subculture in response to said oppression or marginalization--there seems to be a conflict between those who wish to assimilate in order to show that they're just like the dominant society, and therefore worthy to be included in it, and those who desire to be taken "as is", wanting to be accorded their full rights without sacrificing specific aspects of the cultural or subcultural identity associated with the group. We see this in the 60s with Martin Luther King, Jr. on one said and Malcolm X (and, later, The Black Panthers) on the other. In the 80s, gay rights groups were often torn between the mainstream "We're just like straight people" approach of GLAAD and the in-your-face "kiss-ins" held by Queer Nation. This conflict continues to this day.

While I'm largely on the side of those who do not wish to be forced to assimilate, and want to keep the aspects of their culture or subculture (To use a typical example, why should it be up to a flamboyantly gay man to tone it down in order to keep from making me nervous, and not up to me to learn to not be nervous around flamboyantly gay men?), I also admit to some sympathy with the assimilationists. There are black people who do not associate with black "culture" (or appreciate it more in the abstract than as something that they are able to directly relate to), and cringe whenever they're asked to account for the actions or behavior of a militant on the news. There are gay men and lesbians who wince at those who fall into the stereotype, and whose coming out processes were further complicated by a desire to not be associated with them.

Still and all, I have to ask those who agree with the assimilationists "Why is it the responsibility of a black person to fit into a white ideal when it comes to speech, mannerisms, and dress if he or she otherwise does his or her job properly, and doesn't harm others in the process? Why is it the responsibility of a man who feels comfortable in his flamboyance, or a woman who feels more comfortable with androgynous dress and mannerisms to fit to heteronormative visions of respectability, so long as the same basic rules are followed?"

I mean, yes, gay pride parades can seem a bit over the top with the sexuality (though that's been largely toned down in recent years, from what I've seen), but they're no worse than what you'll catch straight people doing at Mardi Gras or on Spring Break. "Urban" young men and women can seem a bit intimidating, but so can groups of white men and women out clubbing.

I'm not sure that I'm expressing this clearly, but it can largely be summed up this way: What's the big deal if someone feels more comfortable exhibiting certain cultural or subcultural characteristics? Why are we so easily offended by this?

User avatar
The Nuclear Fist
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33214
Founded: May 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nuclear Fist » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:08 am

Ultimately, I think it's just because minority communities are more likely to be accepted and not discriminated against if they assimilate. It's easier to move with the current than to swim against it.

Personally, as a relatively "assimilated/heternormative" gay man, I have no issue with campy, flamboyant gay men. Hell, I'm engaged to a pretty effeminate dude. But as a group, the ones that draw the most attention to our community are naturally the ones who stand out against society.

And then they become the stereotype, creating this vicious belief that all members of the minority group are either one or the other or are pretending. It sucks. It creates a dichotomy that doesn't have to exist, but gets reinforced by both society and the minority group itself. The expectation of what gay men are supposed to be like made my own coming out somewhat difficult and awkward.

It isn't fair, it isn't nice. But that's how it is, and I'm not really sure how we'd go about changing that.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:09 am

I think it's only really a problem when either side shows active hostility to the other. Otherwise they generally just start to blend together. I suppose you can consider me an assimilationist. I just prefer that we're all on the same page, at least in a broad sense. If that means oppressors have to take on traits of the oppressed and vice-versa, that's a-ok by me. I don't really take issue when there's cultural differences in small things - mannerisms, speech, dress, etc. Values are my big concern.

Also there are a shitload of cultures and subcultures and most of them overlap with five or ten others.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:17 am

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:There are gay men and lesbians who wince at those who fall into the stereotype, and whose coming out processes were further complicated by a desire to not be associated with them.

They're absolute fuckups doing colonization and internalization as spoon-fed to them while actual issues like transphobia and corrective rape are set aside just so they can pay lip service to cis heteros, knowing cis heteros as a group will never think we are exactly like them with their culture, religion and perspective as historically constructed.

So, yeah, fuck those people. Not as much as actual hateful members of the oppressive group but fuck them too.

Before replying to this post, familiarize yourself with the accepted definition of the concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics
Clearly this talks about the normal one and the ugly spot. I'm not against "normative" people, they should rock their lives as they see fit, I'm against people who reproduce oppression against their own group by attempting to fucking police others in order to engage in a supposedly beneficial socially expected "normality".
Last edited by Degenerate Heart of HetRio on Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

User avatar
Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:18 am

Conserative Morality wrote:Values are my big concern.

Same. People can do whatever they want, that's called freedom.

People should not discriminate against part of their group because they're more visible. That's perpetuation of bigotry.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:19 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:They're absolute fuckups doing colonization and internalization as spoon-fed to them while actual issues like transphobia and corrective rape are set aside just so they can pay lip service to cis heteros, knowing cis heteros as a group will never think we are exactly like them with their culture, religion and perspective as historically constructed.

What the fuck is this? This is like irredentism for sexuality.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
The Nuclear Fist
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33214
Founded: May 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nuclear Fist » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:27 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:There are gay men and lesbians who wince at those who fall into the stereotype, and whose coming out processes were further complicated by a desire to not be associated with them.

They're absolute fuckups doing colonization and internalization as spoon-fed to them while actual issues like transphobia and corrective rape are set aside just so they can pay lip service to cis heteros, knowing cis heteros as a group will never think we are exactly like them with their culture, religion and perspective as historically constructed.

So, yeah, fuck those people. Not as much as actual hateful members of the oppressive group but fuck them too.

Let's both be honest, dearie, since you're apparently incapable of being polite. Oh, but that get in the way of your self-righteous mouth foaming, wouldn't it? You poor thing.

You've almost certainly done precisely fuck all to end whatever it is you're ranting about. Transphobia and corrective rape are serious issues, so what (other than whining on some tumblr blog) have you done to help? What makes you so special as to criticize how I choose to express myself?

Nothing.

You're telling people they're scum for not fitting your standards, calling people whose expressions of their sexuality and personhood are every bit as valid as your own. In that way, you're helping to perpetuate a toxicity in the LGBT+ community.

And that makes opinions like yours the worst kind of hypocrisy.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

User avatar
The Nuclear Fist
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33214
Founded: May 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nuclear Fist » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:29 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:They're absolute fuckups doing colonization and internalization as spoon-fed to them while actual issues like transphobia and corrective rape are set aside just so they can pay lip service to cis heteros, knowing cis heteros as a group will never think we are exactly like them with their culture, religion and perspective as historically constructed.

What the fuck is this? This is like irredentism for sexuality.

HetRio represents what I laid out in my direct response to the OP. Check it out.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

User avatar
Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:32 am

The Nuclear Fist wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:What the fuck is this? This is like irredentism for sexuality.

HetRio represents what I laid out in my direct response to the OP. Check it out.

Do you realize my gender expression is ~butch~, and I have more cishet passability than tons of cis gay men? Sadly enough, this just furthers transmisogynistic and binarist sentiment in their components of gender invalidation. So it's not like I gain privilege from that.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

User avatar
Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:34 am

Conserative Morality wrote:What the fuck is this? This is like irredentism for sexuality.

Everything to you people is too radical when it comes from people who aren't expected to have strong opinions.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

User avatar
Sahrani South
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 384
Founded: Jul 21, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Sahrani South » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:35 am

Respect is everything.
Sir Thomas McLaughlin-Murray
His Majesty's Ambassador to the WA

Factbook of the Kingdom of Sahrani South

User avatar
The Flood
Minister
 
Posts: 3422
Founded: Nov 24, 2011
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Flood » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:35 am

They should just be themselves, whether that be stereotypical, or more in line with the norm.
Agnostic
Asexual
Transgender, pronouns she / her

Pro-Life
Pro-LGBT
Pro-Left Wing
Pro-Socialism / Communism

Anti-Hate Speech
Anti-Fascist
Anti-Bigotry
Anti-Right Wing
Anti-Capitalism

Political Test
Political Compass
Personality Type: INFJ
I am The UNE now

User avatar
Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:38 am

The Nuclear Fist wrote:Let's both be honest, dearie, since you're apparently incapable of being polite. Oh, but that get in the way of your self-righteous mouth foaming, wouldn't it? You poor thing.

You've almost certainly done precisely fuck all to end whatever it is you're ranting about. Transphobia and corrective rape are serious issues, so what (other than whining on some tumblr blog) have you done to help? What makes you so special as to criticize how I choose to express myself?

Nothing.

You're telling people they're scum for not fitting your standards, calling people whose expressions of their sexuality and personhood are every bit as valid as your own. In that way, you're helping to perpetuate a toxicity in the LGBT+ community.

And that makes opinions like yours the worst kind of hypocrisy.

The interesting bit is that I said I have nothing against butch, hetero-passable gay men and femme, hetero-passable lesbian women.

You on the other hand is always complaining about claimed poseurs who make a possible mockery of us...

Also pretty nice jab at the validity of internet discussions and information. It's not like they aren't changing much of the world at all. :roll:

I'm against right-wing/colonized cissexist gays, not gays who aren't interested in the community. Learn to interpret a text.
Last edited by Degenerate Heart of HetRio on Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

User avatar
The Nuclear Fist
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33214
Founded: May 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nuclear Fist » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:39 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:What the fuck is this? This is like irredentism for sexuality.

Everything to you people is too radical when it comes from people who aren't expected to have strong opinions.

No, it's because your opinions are neither well thought out nor well articulated, and come off either as bad satire or a race to the bottom of the Oppression Olympics.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

User avatar
Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:42 am

The Nuclear Fist wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Everything to you people is too radical when it comes from people who aren't expected to have strong opinions.

No, it's because your opinions are neither well thought out nor well articulated, and come off either as bad satire or a race to the bottom of the Oppression Olympics.

Since when do I care about opinions of anti-SJW LGBT people who don't grasp shit of what we talk about because they're too busy arguing in sites where we are just a side issue rather than a central point of discussion and thought?

You come off bad satire. To whatever "moderate liberal" cause or attitude there might ever be. If you're so busy demanding respect from everyone, you should know better about not judging activist attitudes that arise from meaningful frustration so readily. Such as for example the Gay Inc. attitude of groups like HRC and whatever relevant "LGBT rights" organization to have ever existed in Brazil.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:48 am

The Nuclear Fist wrote:HetRio represents what I laid out in my direct response to the OP. Check it out.

You've become a prophet, it seems. :p
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Everything to you people is too radical when it comes from people who aren't expected to have strong opinions.

'You people'? Jesus Christ.

Let me clear something up for you: generally speaking, heterosexuality is not a defining characteristic for worldviews. I expect people to have strong opinions. I hold a great deal of disdain for those who don't. But I also expect people not to hold stupid opinions, and I turn try to refrain from the same.
Last edited by Conserative Morality on Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
The Nuclear Fist
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33214
Founded: May 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nuclear Fist » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:48 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
The Nuclear Fist wrote:Let's both be honest, dearie, since you're apparently incapable of being polite. Oh, but that get in the way of your self-righteous mouth foaming, wouldn't it? You poor thing.

You've almost certainly done precisely fuck all to end whatever it is you're ranting about. Transphobia and corrective rape are serious issues, so what (other than whining on some tumblr blog) have you done to help? What makes you so special as to criticize how I choose to express myself?

Nothing.

You're telling people they're scum for not fitting your standards, calling people whose expressions of their sexuality and personhood are every bit as valid as your own. In that way, you're helping to perpetuate a toxicity in the LGBT+ community.

And that makes opinions like yours the worst kind of hypocrisy.

The interesting bit is that I said I have nothing against butch, hetero-passable gay men and femme, hetero-passable lesbian women.

You on the other hand is always complaining about claimed poseurs who make a possible mockery of us...

Also pretty nice jab at the validity of internet discussions and information. It's not like they aren't changing much of the world at all. :roll:

I'm against right-wing/colonized cissexist gays, not gays who aren't interested in the community. Learn to interpret a text.

Except the post I originally responded to came off as you bitching that LGBT folks were irritated at constantly getting lumped together with utter stereotypes. Nowhere in your post did you say you were okay witch any of that, but nice try.

And perhaps learning to better articulate your opinions into something other than nigh meaningless gibberish peppered with impotent rage and tumblrite buzzwords? People might not misinterpret you so much. Oh, but I shouldn't judge you, it isn't as if you haven't been writing in english for years.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

User avatar
Nazi Flower Power
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21328
Founded: Jun 24, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nazi Flower Power » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:49 am

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:I'm not sure that I'm expressing this clearly, but it can largely be summed up this way: What's the big deal if someone feels more comfortable exhibiting certain cultural or subcultural characteristics? Why are we so easily offended by this?


Some people are just looking for an excuse to carry on being racist or homophobic, and this is a way for them to blame the people they're discriminating against instead of acknowledging their own racism or homophobia.

There should be some basic standards of courtesy (or professionalism if we're talking about a work environment), but if someone is just flamboyant without being rude or unprofessional, then it's not a problem. Drag queens are awesome anyway.
The Serene and Glorious Reich of Nazi Flower Power has existed for longer than Nazi Germany! Thank you to all the brave men and women of the Allied forces who made this possible!

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:50 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Since when do I care about opinions of anti-SJW LGBT people who don't grasp shit of what we talk about because they're too busy arguing in sites where we are just a side issue rather than a central point of discussion and thought?

You come off bad satire. To whatever "moderate liberal" cause or attitude there might ever be. If you're so busy demanding respect from everyone, you should know better about not judging activist attitudes that arise from meaningful frustration so readily. Such as for example the Gay Inc. attitude of groups like HRC and whatever relevant "LGBT rights" organization to have ever existed in Brazil.

Wow. "Fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me", eh? Sounds less like fighting for LGBT rights and more like fighting for a very specific worldview. Shit, do you expect LGBT people to only enter sites where LGBT topics are just one of many instead of the focus of the discussion? Some people have lives that don't revolve around who they're attracted to, or what sex they were born as.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:52 am

Conserative Morality wrote:'You people'? Jesus Christ.

Let me clear something up for you: generally speaking, heterosexuality is not a defining characteristic for worldviews. I expect people to have strong opinions. I hold a great deal of disdain for those who don't. But I also expect people not to hold stupid opinions, and I turn try to refrain from the same.

CM, this forum has literally got white nationalists and you direct your frustration about identity essentialism at me?

I'm not talking about your personal opinion, I'm talking about the embodiment of our (queer people's) politics as harmful and toxic when we're actually just saying queer people should respect themselves and learn to value their own kind before what they are taught to be normal because no one else will do this homework for us.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

User avatar
Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:53 am

The Nuclear Fist wrote:Except the post I originally responded to came off as you bitching that LGBT folks were irritated at constantly getting lumped together with utter stereotypes. Nowhere in your post did you say you were okay witch any of that, but nice try.

And perhaps learning to better articulate your opinions into something other than nigh meaningless gibberish peppered with impotent rage and tumblrite buzzwords? People might not misinterpret you so much. Oh, but I shouldn't judge you, it isn't as if you haven't been writing in english for years.

It's a tumblr meme when it's about oppressed people, it's academics when it's bullshit sociopath economic theories.

I see you've done well at being fed lies.

Please educate yourself, I'm on topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

User avatar
The Nuclear Fist
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33214
Founded: May 02, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nuclear Fist » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:55 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Since when do I care about opinions of anti-SJW LGBT people who don't grasp shit of what we talk about because they're too busy arguing in sites where we are just a side issue rather than a central point of discussion and thought?

You come off bad satire. To whatever "moderate liberal" cause or attitude there might ever be. If you're so busy demanding respect from everyone, you should know better about not judging activist attitudes that arise from meaningful frustration so readily. Such as for example the Gay Inc. attitude of groups like HRC and whatever relevant "LGBT rights" organization to have ever existed in Brazil.

Wow. "Fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me", eh? Sounds less like fighting for LGBT rights and more like fighting for a very specific worldview. Shit, do you expect LGBT people to only enter sites where LGBT topics are just one of many instead of the focus of the discussion? Some people have lives that don't revolve around who they're attracted to, or what sex they were born as.

*shrugs*

Some people just desperately want to be offended. Righteous indignation gets them off or something.

It's crazy that I, as an openly gay man, might not want to spend every waking moment foaming at the mouth about my sexuality.

Egads, it's almost as if not all LGBT people are innately built around their sexuality. This is something we must take to the papers immediately, maybe HetRio might get it.
[23:24] <Marquesan> I have the feeling that all the porn videos you watch are like...set to Primus' music, Ulysses.
Farnhamia wrote:You're getting a little too fond of the jerkoff motions.
And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses. . .
THE ABSOLUTTM MADMAN ESCAPES JUSTICE ONCE MORE

User avatar
Degenerate Heart of HetRio
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10600
Founded: Feb 12, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:55 am

Conserative Morality wrote:Wow. "Fuck everyone who doesn't agree with me", eh? Sounds less like fighting for LGBT rights and more like fighting for a very specific worldview. Shit, do you expect LGBT people to only enter sites where LGBT topics are just one of many instead of the focus of the discussion? Some people have lives that don't revolve around who they're attracted to, or what sex they were born as.

I'm just saying that before criticizing my politics as bullshit, he should actually familiarize himself with important concepts that lead to it - such as the obvious factor of internalization -, because I'm not one isolated incident of ugly cis-biting monstrosity.

Hell, Wikipedia would be enough of that.
Pro: Communism/anarchism, Indigenous rights, MOGAI stuff, bodily autonomy, disability rights, environmentalism
Meh: Animal rights, non-harmful religion/superstition, militant atheism, left-leaning reform of capitalism
Anti: Dyadic superstructure (sex-gender birth designation and hierarchy), positivism, conservatism, imperialism, Zionism, Orientalism, fascism, religious right, bending to reactionary concerns before freedom/common concern, fraudulent beliefs and ideologies

Formerly "Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro".

Compass: -10.00, -9.13
S-E Ideology: Demc. Socialist (92% ditto/Marxist, 75% Anarchist/Social democrat, 0% etc)
S-E school of thought: Communist (100% ditto, 96% Post-Keynesian)

Though this says I'm a social democrat, I'm largely a left communist.

User avatar
Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44623
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:56 am

The Nuclear Fist wrote:
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:The interesting bit is that I said I have nothing against butch, hetero-passable gay men and femme, hetero-passable lesbian women.

You on the other hand is always complaining about claimed poseurs who make a possible mockery of us...

Also pretty nice jab at the validity of internet discussions and information. It's not like they aren't changing much of the world at all. :roll:

I'm against right-wing/colonized cissexist gays, not gays who aren't interested in the community. Learn to interpret a text.

Except the post I originally responded to came off as you bitching that LGBT folks were irritated at constantly getting lumped together with utter stereotypes. Nowhere in your post did you say you were okay witch any of that, but nice try.

And perhaps learning to better articulate your opinions into something other than nigh meaningless gibberish peppered with impotent rage and tumblrite buzzwords? People might not misinterpret you so much. Oh, but I shouldn't judge you, it isn't as if you haven't been writing in english for years.


Thank you, for saying what needed to be said.

Seriously, HetRio, eat a damn Snickers.
Lib-left. Antifascist, antitankie, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist (including the imperialism of non-western countries). Christian (Unitarian Universalist). Background in physics.
Mostly a girl. She or they pronouns, please. Unrepentant transbian.
Reject tradition, embrace modernity.
People who call themselves based NEVER are.
The truth about kids transitioning.

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:59 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:CM, this forum has literally got white nationalists and you direct your frustration about identity essentialism at me?

Are you suggesting I don't do the same to white nationalists? I've spent the past goddamn week clashing with racists. Do you think that "I'm not as bad" is a good excuse for being bad? To reuse an analogy from another thread, if you're drinking two litres of sulfuric acid instead of six, you're still drinking sulfuric acid (Funnily enough that was in a thread about... racism)

So basically, don't hide behind others. Certainly, you shouldn't use white nationalists as a shield. Step up and defend yourself. Don't cower. It's morally disgusting.
I'm not talking about your personal opinion, I'm talking about the embodiment of our (queer people's) politics as harmful and toxic when we're actually just saying queer people should respect themselves and learn to value their own kind before what they are taught to be normal because no one else will do this homework for us.

You see, 'learn to value their own kind' suggests an inherent quality of difference that most people reject. Other than who one is attracted to. I've never known a LGBT individual to be radically different from anyone else I've met (I know, I know, anecdotes are not proof), and I really don't think that increased separation is in any way a helpful idea. That's a bit too 70s, you know?
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Haganham, Keltionialang, Likhinia, THe cHadS, Tiami, Tungstan

Advertisement

Remove ads