NationStates

The Sotoan Union wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:I'm not looking to say 'this specific code is the only honor', I'm asking 'what is honor?', full stop. Honor is not a plant. It's not a heart, and it's not hunger. If honor is so fluid, what's the container keeping it shaped like?

Whatever people want it to be. Some crazy dude could think it is a plant. Most people will think it is a sort of moral code or societal values. But nobody can say that their version is honor and other versions aren't.

Exactly.

In the post-modern West where ethical codification has become increasingly more fluid to the point of being meaningless, yes "honor" is a concept increasingly more difficult to adopt and maintain, unless adopting certain specialized lifestyles. An honor system in it's simplest form is just a code of conduct geared toward orderly protection of it's host culture against internal and external chaos. Military culture comes to mind as a quick and easy example for study.

Of course all codes of conduct are subjective. A civilian who only seeks to satisfy his own flesh regardless of consequence isn't going to appreciate the basic self-discipline of a Marine. A democratic secularist won't appreciate a theologically inspired code of patriarchal oppression. An entrepeneur who creates a market through his own labor and investment that not only feeds himself, but establishes an environment of opportunity for his neighbors to draw sustenance from as well, won't appreciate the ethics of collectivism and redistribution. In all cases, all parties may be self-righteous, but eventually only one will be recognized as virtuous even in the most subjective atmosphere, and as always, one society's hero is another's villain.

This is why it's important to create a spine of objective morality for a culture to adhere to by default, so that it's community doesn't just stagnate and drown in chaotic subjectivity.

I don't know if it exists in the modern world. There's a lot of distrust, backstabbing, and little Loyalty to others I find. I'm not saying those are necessarily wrong (there are times to use them), I just have a have a hard time believing that honouring your word, being loyal to friends, and being trustful aren't values to aspire to anymore. Instead it seems to be about getting to the top no matter the cost.

I believe in the goodness of every one, except those ISIS f***ers. Those may rot.

being honorable or following one's philosophy or moral code was never easy, I don't think its any harder than it was a few centuries ago.

It's in my signature, honor is the only thing I have.

The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:It's in my signature, honor is the only thing I have.

That type of thinking can lead to extremely irrational and destructive behavior.

Olivaero wrote:

The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:It's in my signature, honor is the only thing I have.

That type of thinking can lead to extremely irrational and destructive behavior.

I'm willing to pay that price.

The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:

Olivaero wrote:That type of thinking can lead to extremely irrational and destructive behavior.

I'm willing to pay that price.

Does that include revenge if your honour is besmirched?

Olivaero wrote:

The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:I'm willing to pay that price.

Does that include revenge if your honour is besmirched?

Revenge is best served cold.

And honorable, not agressively.

Olivaero wrote:

The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:I'm willing to pay that price.

Does that include revenge if your honour is besmirched?

The only individual that can be at fault for tarnishing my own honor is myself. So, yes, it does.

I think most subcultures have a code, but they're broken pretty often.

The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:

Olivaero wrote:That type of thinking can lead to extremely irrational and destructive behavior.

I'm willing to pay that price.

That is adorable.

Judging by the results of the poll on my Tobacco thread (where I asked if people would take a well-paying job at a cigarette sales company)...

it appears to me that honor is indeed in decline.

Moral code, moral beliefs, honesty, and a commitment to justice and the greater good is counting for less and less every single day.

In the past, leaders were expected to stand by their decisions and personally lead the soldiers into battle. The nobles were raised as privileged individuals, yes... but they were also inculcated with a sense of responsibility.

''...being a lord is like being a father, except you have thousands of children. And you worry about all of them: The farmer plowing the fields is yours to protect, the charwomen scrubbing the floors, yours to protect, the soldiers you order into battle.''

Unfortunately, this is no longer the code.

Today, you are raised and while it is still expected that you pay lip service to honesty, honor and justice... the Go Getter attitude is what is promoted. Its all about what you want and getting ahead. Its all about money and votes.

In the past, people were shocked, offended, and disillusioned when once in a while a leader was revealed to be corrupt or dishonorable.

Today? They EXPECT it. It is the default position.

Take any modern leader, say Obama. Some people support him while others oppose him... but nobody would be surprised if one day it was ever revealed he was knee-deep in corruption; it would simply confirm our suspicions.

This is a very cynical age and we support or oppose people based on what they can offer us. Not because we have faith in their moral character.

Politicians are EXPECTED to make promises in exchanges for benefits (so long as they are clever enough to loophole existing anti-corruption laws). We EXPECT them to be practical, ruthless, slicksters. We are perfectly fine with them sending thousands of young people to die abroad for wars they order and from which they profit. It is entirely expected.

Infected Mushroom wrote:Judging by the results of the poll on my Tobacco thread (where I asked if people would take a well-paying job at a cigarette sales company)...

it appears to me that honor is indeed in decline.

Being a smoker and a former salesman, I really can't see what's so dishonorable about working for a tobacco company.

Honor is simply a word meaning great respect.

As such, it is quite alive and well.

That TW: Shogun 2 reference

The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:Judging by the results of the poll on my Tobacco thread (where I asked if people would take a well-paying job at a cigarette sales company)...

it appears to me that honor is indeed in decline.

Being a smoker and a former salesman, I really can't see what's so dishonorable about working for a tobacco company.

Then I guess honor isn't that important to you after all.

Unfortunately honour is on the verge of completely disappearing from the world.

Behaviour on the geo-political scale most especially, has shown how low the Earth has descended. Morality is on the way out, instead its ruthless neo-colonialist expansionism masked as "humanitarianism", "freedom", "democracy"; or avaricious prioritisation of profit over people; in addition to the rise of social decadence.

Honor is a needless and arbitrary inhibition.

The Batorys wrote:

The Confederacy of Nationalism wrote:Being a smoker and a former salesman, I really can't see what's so dishonorable about working for a tobacco company.

Then I guess honor isn't that important to you after all.

What? You still haven't explained why working for a tobacco company is dishonorable. For the record, I quit my job as a pharmaceutical salesman because of shady business practices, they essentially expected me to sell their products without informing doctors of all the side effects or their actual severity.

Honor stopped existing the moment spies were thought up.

inhave hinor I don't care about money I'm serving country

Infected Mushroom wrote:Judging by the results of the poll on my Tobacco thread (where I asked if people would take a well-paying job at a cigarette sales company)...

it appears to me that honor is indeed in decline.

Moral code, moral beliefs, honesty, and a commitment to justice and the greater good is counting for less and less every single day.

In the past, leaders were expected to stand by their decisions and personally lead the soldiers into battle. The nobles were raised as privileged individuals, yes... but they were also inculcated with a sense of responsibility.

''...being a lord is like being a father, except you have thousands of children. And you worry about all of them: The farmer plowing the fields is yours to protect, the charwomen scrubbing the floors, yours to protect, the soldiers you order into battle.''

Unfortunately, this is no longer the code.

What makes you think that was ever the case? A Song Of Ice And Fire is a fantasy story with magic and dragons and a world where seasons last years. It is not a historical documentary.

Ifreann wrote:

Infected Mushroom wrote:Judging by the results of the poll on my Tobacco thread (where I asked if people would take a well-paying job at a cigarette sales company)...

it appears to me that honor is indeed in decline.

Moral code, moral beliefs, honesty, and a commitment to justice and the greater good is counting for less and less every single day.

In the past, leaders were expected to stand by their decisions and personally lead the soldiers into battle. The nobles were raised as privileged individuals, yes... but they were also inculcated with a sense of responsibility.

''...being a lord is like being a father, except you have thousands of children. And you worry about all of them: The farmer plowing the fields is yours to protect, the charwomen scrubbing the floors, yours to protect, the soldiers you order into battle.''

Unfortunately, this is no longer the code.

What makes you think that was ever the case? A Song Of Ice And Fire is a fantasy story with magic and dragons and a world where seasons last years. It is not a historical documentary.

Its a fact that commanders used to command and inspire their soldiers from the front. Honor was important then.

Nowadays, they just cower behind their desks and order wars entire continents away

Just look at the massive shift in the mentality of today's leaders and the generations of the past. Look at how our expectations of our leaders have changed.

Honor counts for less every day.