NationStates

The Fascist American Empire wrote:No offense, but if you take a Buddhist monk, a Rabbi, a Catholic Priest, a Hindu, an atheist, a Southern Baptist, and a Muslim Imam; radicalize them all in their beliefs (good luck with the monk); and put them in a room together... well, which one is most likely to violently explode?

Yes, the terrorists are a lunatic fringe, but they are a very large lunatic fringe. Approximately 14% of muslims are militant/radical/extremist, and approximately 1 billion people are muslim. Therefore, a little more than 140 million muslims are extremists/terrorists. That is larger than the population of most countries. But let's also look at it like this: when the mafia was giving the FBI trouble, they kept a close watch on Italian communities, where else would you find the mafia? When we had trouble with the Westies, we searched every Irish bar in Manhattan, s they operated in Irish bars. Likewise, when fighting against a crazed Jihad, you will naturally set your sights on Muslim communities. After all, when was the last time the Dali Lama ran out of the pagoda with an AK screaming "Allāhu akbar!"? Probably never. It's not that people hate Islam, they just don't trust it.

1) All of them would become violent.

2) Source for those numbers?

3) And why don't they trust it, becouse they are uneducated on that subject. Most people don't even know what Islam is, even the basics of the religion are often unknown to people.

The Borderline Borderlands wrote:

The Seleucids wrote:Nope, its not. Please read the Quran before you start telling lies..

Oh please, if Muslims actually went by the Qu'ran, they'd be a thousand times more violent than they are. Don't make it out to be a bad thing that they cherry-pick scripture to support a vastly more peaceful and tolerant religion, instead of sticking to the crazed psycho murder shit that is orthodoxy. The Qu'ran is every bit as bad as the Bible.

Once again, read the Quran before you start making up fairytales. You only proof yourself to be completely uneducated on the Islam as a whole.

The Seleucids wrote:

The Fascist American Empire wrote:No offense, but if you take a Buddhist monk, a Rabbi, a Catholic Priest, a Hindu, an atheist, a Southern Baptist, and a Muslim Imam; radicalize them all in their beliefs (good luck with the monk); and put them in a room together... well, which one is most likely to violently explode?

Yes, the terrorists are a lunatic fringe, but they are a very large lunatic fringe. Approximately 14% of muslims are militant/radical/extremist, and approximately 1 billion people are muslim. Therefore, a little more than 140 million muslims are extremists/terrorists. That is larger than the population of most countries. But let's also look at it like this: when the mafia was giving the FBI trouble, they kept a close watch on Italian communities, where else would you find the mafia? When we had trouble with the Westies, we searched every Irish bar in Manhattan, s they operated in Irish bars. Likewise, when fighting against a crazed Jihad, you will naturally set your sights on Muslim communities. After all, when was the last time the Dali Lama ran out of the pagoda with an AK screaming "Allāhu akbar!"? Probably never. It's not that people hate Islam, they just don't trust it.

1) All of them would become violent.

2) Source for those numbers?

3) And why don't they trust it, becouse they are uneducated on that subject. Most people don't even know what Islam is, even the basics of the religion are often unknown to people.

1) Yes, but a few wild punches in a church-off are nothing compared to a suicide vest.
2) A muslim herself told me this.
3) Nobody said all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.

The Seleucids wrote:

The Borderline Borderlands wrote:
Oh please, if Muslims actually went by the Qu'ran, they'd be a thousand times more violent than they are. Don't make it out to be a bad thing that they cherry-pick scripture to support a vastly more peaceful and tolerant religion, instead of sticking to the crazed psycho murder shit that is orthodoxy. The Qu'ran is every bit as bad as the Bible.

Once again, read the Quran before you start making up fairytales. You only proof yourself to be completely uneducated on the Islam as a whole.

You don't strike me as very educated on the subject either

The Seleucids wrote:

The Borderline Borderlands wrote:
Oh please, if Muslims actually went by the Qu'ran, they'd be a thousand times more violent than they are. Don't make it out to be a bad thing that they cherry-pick scripture to support a vastly more peaceful and tolerant religion, instead of sticking to the crazed psycho murder shit that is orthodoxy. The Qu'ran is every bit as bad as the Bible.

Once again, read the Quran before you start making up fairytales. You only proof yourself to be completely uneducated on the Islam as a whole.

Doesn't the Quran itself state, "Make war upon the infidel and smite at their necks"?

The Seleucids wrote:Once again, read the Quran before you start making up fairytales. You only proof yourself to be completely uneducated on the Islam as a whole.

Yeah... No, how about you come back to me when you've read the Qu'ran?

Unlike you, I actually have read most of it. And I promise you, it is some truly vile stuff. Both writing and content. But follow the link above and educate yourself.

The Fascist American Empire wrote:

The Seleucids wrote:
1) All of them would become violent.

2) Source for those numbers?

3) And why don't they trust it, becouse they are uneducated on that subject. Most people don't even know what Islam is, even the basics of the religion are often unknown to people.

1) Yes, but a few wild punches in a church-off are nothing compared to a suicide vest.
2) A muslim herself told me this.
3) Nobody said all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.

1) So now suicide vests are a muslim thing? Just make one person of each religion an extremists and up in a load of guns. They will all fire the gun eventually. The tools you use has nothing to do with it. Joseph Kony (Christian Terrorist) uses childeren as weapons, so even you're comparrison makes no sence at all.
2) That's no evidence, and hell, if one person says it doesn't make it a true thing. If i, as a Christian, would tell you that 14% of all Christians would be pedophiles, would you believe it?
3) First of all, that depends on what you call a terrorist, second, most victems of terrorists are Muslims aswell, and third, its only at the moment, 30 years ago "Islamic" terrorism wasn't even a thing.

South Pacific Republic wrote:

The Seleucids wrote:
Once again, read the Quran before you start making up fairytales. You only proof yourself to be completely uneducated on the Islam as a whole.

You don't strike me as very educated on the subject either

That's up to you. But why should i go into a debate with somebody that clearly knows nothing at all about the Islamic faith and has made up his mind arleady?

The Fascist American Empire wrote:

The Seleucids wrote:
Once again, read the Quran before you start making up fairytales. You only proof yourself to be completely uneducated on the Islam as a whole.

Doesn't the Quran itself state, "Make war upon the infidel and smite at their necks"?

One should understand that according to the Islamic rules one is not permitted to use a sentence out of the Quran without taking into account the context around it and the whole Quran in genral. This is a very common thing "anti-Islam" people and terrorists do, but its against the Islamic religion.

Now, as far as i know there are very clear rules in the Quran about non-Muslims and the probable cause that one should have to "legit" kill them.
The only legit reason for a Muslim to kill a non-Muslim is during a war. Now on wars themselves there are rules aswell.
A war may only be declared if you are provoked. You are not allowed to go to war under any other conditions then self-Defense.
Once your enemy desires peace, you desire it aswell.
In a war a person is not allowed to kill woman, children and aged men. He's also not allowed to mutilate bodies.

Now there may be other rules attached to such things, though i'm not an expert so i can't tell all details on such matters. Just go to a local mosque and have a chat with the Imam. I'm sure they will take time to explain all the questions you have.

The Borderline Borderlands wrote:

The Seleucids wrote:Once again, read the Quran before you start making up fairytales. You only proof yourself to be completely uneducated on the Islam as a whole.

Yeah... No, how about you come back to me when you've read the Qu'ran?

Unlike you, I actually have read most of it. And I promise you, it is some truly vile stuff. Both writing and content. But follow the link above and educate yourself.

I've read the Quran multiple times by now, its you who clearly doesn't understand anything about it, you already proved your lack of knowledge about the Islam before so no, don't try to come here ant talk like you know anything. You don't even know the way of reading and understanding the Quran. As long as you ignore such matters there's no reason for me to open up a debate with you, becouse i know it will be useless and i'm not wasting my time on somebody that has made up his mind about something already before he even knows something about it.

The Seleucids wrote:

The Borderline Borderlands wrote:
Yeah... No, how about you come back to me when you've read the Qu'ran?

Unlike you, I actually have read most of it. And I promise you, it is some truly vile stuff. Both writing and content. But follow the link above and educate yourself.

I've read the Quran multiple times by now, its you who clearly doesn't understand anything about it, you already proved your lack of knowledge about the Islam before so no, don't try to come here ant talk like you know anything. You don't even know the way of reading and understanding the Quran. As long as you ignore such matters there's no reason for me to open up a debate with you, becouse i know it will be useless and i'm not wasting my time on somebody that has made up his mind about something already before he even knows something about it.

Just to be sure: do you believe it is possible for someone to have read and understood the Quran, but still not to like Islam, Allah, muslims in general etc ?

The words Muslim, Islam etc derive from salaam = shalom = Peace.

BUT every word in Arabic has five meanings.

Some interpret peace literally. eg 3 months ago, 100 British Muslim priests signed a fatwah that ISIL are heretics.

Some interpret peace spiritually to mean submission, surrender, obedience, terrorism etc eg ISIL, Hamas, Taliban, Saudi, Sharia etc.

Why do so many people hate Islam?

They assume all muslims are terrorists even though only some muslims are terrorists.

Bears are Catholic. Popes poop in the woods. More neews at 11

The Seleucids wrote:Please explain what all of these links have to do with Islam.

Killings by islamist groups who are simply doing what the Quran instructs all able-bodied Muslim men to do.

The Seleucids wrote: Please read the Quran before you start telling lies..

You know, I've read the Quran and the Bible and part of Mein Kampf. Out of the three, the Bible is the least violent and the Quran the most violent. Mein Kampf is just deliberately vague and long-winded. The Quran - now that one really shocked me. Muslims often tell me to look at the context for certain quotes (especially the ones about slavery, sexual slavery and murder of infidels), and I must say I wish I hadn't.

The context is actually fairly simple in most cases - Muhammed makes a distinction between four types of Muslims. The distinction is based on the assumption that Muslims should always attempt to conquer the infidel nations. Those who can't fight are ordinary Muslims who may or may not be in God's favour. Those who kill infidels or get killed by infidels are rewarded with a certain and preferential position in heaven. Those who refuse to fight are cowards and are punished in the hereafter before being admitted to heaven. And those who abandon Islam, even if they later reconvert, are hell-bound with certainty because, as God (supposedly) states in the Quran, "where would it all end if I started forgiving some apostates?" The Hadiths add some more to that: according to Muhammed, apostasy can be punished with death, because all apostates become irreversibly useless in the eyes of God (for the master plan of conquest) anyway.

Lleu llaw Gyffes wrote:The words Muslim, Islam etc derive from salaam = shalom = Peace.

"Islam" means 'submission to God' only, and "Muslim" means 'one who submits to God'. Both words are derived from the root s-l-m, but not 'salaam' or 'shalom' - those are cousins, and not parents, of "Islam" and "Muslim". Here I am, a proud infidel and Islam-hater, explaining islamic theology and etymology to islamophiles.

The Alma Mater wrote:

The Seleucids wrote:
I've read the Quran multiple times by now, its you who clearly doesn't understand anything about it, you already proved your lack of knowledge about the Islam before so no, don't try to come here ant talk like you know anything. You don't even know the way of reading and understanding the Quran. As long as you ignore such matters there's no reason for me to open up a debate with you, becouse i know it will be useless and i'm not wasting my time on somebody that has made up his mind about something already before he even knows something about it.

Just to be sure: do you believe it is possible for someone to have read and understood the Quran, but still not to like Islam, Allah, muslims in general etc ?

Ofcourse its possible, i can't tell how people think, what their motivations are to think in a certain way and what they expect from such book. Everybody is entitled to their own choices, their own way of thinking and their way of dealing with their feelings.
I do believe however that there is no true ground to dislike, let alone hate Allah, Islam or Muslims in general. Now sure, one can disagree with it, i do for example, but there's no need to dislike or even hate it. I'm very willing to try to point out my motivations for that, but only to those who are willing to open up for it. I'm not going to debate with someone of who i know will never change his mind.

Quintium wrote:

The Seleucids wrote:Please explain what all of these links have to do with Islam.

Killings by islamist groups who are simply doing what the Quran instructs all able-bodied Muslim men to do.

The Seleucids wrote: Please read the Quran before you start telling lies..

You know, I've read the Quran and the Bible and part of Mein Kampf. Out of the three, the Bible is the least violent and the Quran the most violent. Mein Kampf is just deliberately vague and long-winded. The Quran - now that one really shocked me. Muslims often tell me to look at the context for certain quotes (especially the ones about slavery, sexual slavery and murder of infidels), and I must say I wish I hadn't.

The context is actually fairly simple in most cases - Muhammed makes a distinction between four types of Muslims. The distinction is based on the assumption that Muslims should always attempt to conquer the infidel nations. Those who can't fight are ordinary Muslims who may or may not be in God's favour. Those who kill infidels or get killed by infidels are rewarded with a certain and preferential position in heaven. Those who refuse to fight are cowards and are punished in the hereafter before being admitted to heaven. And those who abandon Islam, even if they later reconvert, are hell-bound with certainty because, as God (supposedly) states in the Quran, "where would it all end if I started forgiving some apostates?" The Hadiths add some more to that: according to Muhammed, apostasy can be punished with death, because all apostates become irreversibly useless in the eyes of God (for the master plan of conquest) anyway.

1) Wong, the only thing those links show are people doing bad things. Things that are against the teachings of Islam in fact. But it shows nothing more then just peopel doing bad things. I could do the very same with Hindu's, Budhists and Christians if i wanted to, but i'm not going to lower myself to that kind of childish display anymore.

2) As for this, i advice you (and all others that are cought in such believes) to look on youtube and search "Yusuf Estes - AUB - Misconceptions about Islam"
He explains alot of misconceptions very good. Just watch it, and tell me what you think afterwards.

Ereria wrote:

Herskerstad wrote:


viewtopic.php?f=20&t=200976&p=11040580#p11040580

This is roughly two years ago and on your post count. I was rummaging through it to see if you had posted something Arabic in the past, but I found this a lot more interesting. Being fair and not jumping to any conclusion, can you walk me through what kind of understanding made you post such a thing? I know plenty of Muslim regions where uttering such a thing would be deadly as Jesus, or Isa, is considered an important prophet. It's not exactly hidden knowledge.

I was a kid that had a flame war on the internet?? What is your conclusion? If a christian insults muhammad which is a prophet which would also be a sin, I would have insulted Jesus at that time, even though I have matured right now and don't insult christianity because of people like you for example.

Yeah, but you are claiming that my knowledge of Islam is 'just from the internet' which it is not. It comes from a variety of debates, theological studies, comparative religions, general education, life, friends and trust me, unless you have a scholarly approach to the foremost, you will get slaughtered. Regardless of which approach you make. I do not make a claim to have read the quran, as I cannot read arabic. Commentaries on the quran are another thing however 'which are called commentaries because someone calling a translation of the quran a translation would be an exercise of inpiety among Muslims' I make no secret of my shortcomings in regards to the field, but when I present material that is either from the Quran, Sahih or Qudsi Hadiths, then I expect someone who want to levy their word against mine and quote me to take things out of context to present said context rather than just leave it at that, because such is tantamount to ad-hominem.

Meanwhile, you are telling me that you've been a lifelong muslim which has read the quran since you were 13. You've without any foreknowledge of my situation repulsed my understanding and arguments without knowing anything of the former, and going entirely around the latter. You've claimed to be what would be a pious muslim for 15 years at the age of the event, 2 years from reading the quran in actual Arabic, and you insult what would be universally seen as muslims as a great prophet. I guess part of me is shocked because saying that in certain places could potentially get you killed in the muslim world today, but fine, lets say it was a temporary burst of insanity on your part because teens will be teens. However, if you are going to challenge my background on the topic when yours has you only a couple of years back doing what some muslims would claim to be an act of apostasy or even blasphemy, then that's hardly coherent.

What I am trying to convey is. 1 - Never assume you know exactly what another person knows, much less how he has acquired that knowledge. It makes you seem foolish rather than he as you can make no claim to transcendence. 2 - Address the arguments rather than the person. If I am taking your religion out of context or your core doctrines, feel free to make examples of such. Deconstruct the argument I have put out, use Islamic authorities, the closer to the origin the better and we can go from there. I have gone back and forward with Muslims a ton of times on NS and rarely does it become anything which addresses the persons rather than the argument, which is how it should be, but when I become the subject of debate, then I will gladly return the favor to the ones who brought me as a person into it. Finally 3 - Be consistent. If you are going to quote yourself as a lifelong muslim which actually takes it seriously while at the same time addressing a concern for my level understanding which has developed over the years, make sure your understanding over the years has not been close to the 'I quoted one of my prophets as a bitch and a child molester' category. If you feel there is something beneficial for me to learn, then I am not beyond considering such and I can return to give my opinion of such once I've gone through, but don't take it to a personal level unless you have a clean background yourself. Or, you know, I could end up being the one laughing.

So, do you want to debate any of the passages I've quoted and tell me where I am taking them out of context or do you want to lock horns some more?

Grand Britannia wrote:People will probably forget about it in 70 to 80 years when we start hating China.

There are tons of muslims in China. There are millions of people in the USA, that you just walk bye without even knowing there muslim.

Skinia wrote:Anti-Islam isn't about 9/11 alone. It's about Hamas, ISIL, Boko Haram and the Taleban. It's about reactionary and totalitarian governments. It's also about the Quran and a lot of its content. However, it's mostly about what other muslims think, say and do. Like all religions, it has its liberals, conservatives and outright fundies. It has its good guys and bad guys. I am anti-Islamic, but not an islamophobe. There's a difference.

Yes at least someone here makes sense. Not all Muslims are bad guys many are good in fact. It's their religion aka ideology. Just like its fascist, Christian fundamentalist and Zionist cousins. It is a threat to the world and must be destroyed.

So many people hate Islam because for some reason or another, only the sinister side of it has been shown to them. I for one, am proud to say that I am an anti-anti-Muslim (that is, I dislike those who hate Muslims), and also proud to say that I have Muslim friends (who sometimes demonstrate more fidelity than the many non-Muslim "friends" I have). However, given the radical side's actions, I can see why an anti-Muslim would dislike Islam.

This is a bit of a gravedig so let the dead sleep please.

ISIS. Period. That's why.

Araksasya wrote:Just because of 9/11, c'mon 13 years ago, a lunatic fringe group did a horrible thing, but now peoplehave so much hate. We don't hate Germans because of Hitler and Nazis but yet we hate Muslims because of al-Qaeda and Bin Laden?

Idk I think anti German sentiment probably lasted a while though. But yeah, 9/11 plus all the other terrorists attacks, plus just general ignorance of Islam plus a few writings in the Koran that are sketchy on the issue of violence, antisemitism etc.

Because Islam is representative of our own bloody past, and we don't like to look in that particular mirror.