Pope Francis supports evolution, says God isn't a magician

[The Nexus of Man]

And there are "some" who have scientific prowess and still see it as a theory. We can go on with this all day.

And there are "some" who have scientific prowess and believe the earth is flat. Yet we don't teach that.

Can you name a testable prediction that creationism makes?

Creation. Says it in the name.

[Violetza]

The Catholic Church will truly start modernising when it supports gay marriage and allows female, transgender, homosexual and bisexual priests, cardinals and popes. When that starts happening I'll start considering it truly progressive.

Good to know you care more about priests' private parts than you care about, say, the Catholic Church's stance on global poverty and its support (or lack thereof) for social justice movements.

I couldn't care less about what kinds of legal recognition are or are not granted to relationships between middle-income people with comfortable lifestyles who happen to be gay. It doesn't matter. They'll be fine either way. You know what does matter? How many children in the world are going hungry tonight. How many people have access to clean drinking water. How many people can find jobs to support their families.

Get your priorities straight, progressives.

I think they should address those issues as well, but those are socio-economic issues, I was busy discussing purely social structure related ones, ones more closely linked to evolution.

I happen to support both issues and observe that the problems they are trying to deal with are both problematic.

Also, there are lower socio-economic class homosexuals as well, including some in Nigeria, where they face arrest, and numerous other strongly Catholic and Christian nations where they face abuse, discrimination, corrective rape and murder.

Maybe confirm my beliefs on the matter before you jump down my throat next time ok.

[New Socialist South Africa]

And there are "some" who have scientific prowess and believe the earth is flat. Yet we don't teach that.

Can you name a testable prediction that creationism makes?

Creation. Says it in the name.

By that do you mean creation by a conscious god or god-like character or creation through a random cosmic event consistent with the big bang theory?

[Luziyca]

Progressive pope. Nice. I just hope he's not assassinated.

Agreed.

[Benuty]

I wonder if Pope Francis has his own collection of young boys in the Vatican.
Seriously the Catholic Church is corrupt and full of pedophiles, can't believe the pope still has so much influence.
Who gives a fuck if he approves of evolution, why does anyone give a shit what he says.

>leader of a religion, supposedly has a direct link to God.
>why does anyone give a shit what he says?

I could say the same of you.

[New Waterford]

The Catholic Church will truly start modernising when it supports gay marriage and allows female, transgender, homosexual and bisexual priests, cardinals and popes. When that starts happening I'll start considering it truly progressive.

Good to know you care more about priests' private parts than you care about, say, the Catholic Church's stance on global poverty and its support (or lack thereof) for social justice movements.

I couldn't care less about what kinds of legal recognition are or are not granted to relationships between middle-income people with comfortable lifestyles who happen to be gay. It doesn't matter. They'll be fine either way. You know what does matter? How many children in the world are going hungry tonight. How many people have access to clean drinking water. How many people can find jobs to support their families.

Get your priorities straight, progressives.

Can I quote that in my sig?

[Benuty]

Could you point out to me which part of the Bible mentions abortion? I can't seem to find it...

The 10 commandments. Thou shall not kill.

Those aren't the only commandments.

1. “You shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.”

2. “You shall not make for yourself any gods of cast metal.”

3. “You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread.”

4. “Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest.”

5. “You shall observe the Feast of Weeks… and the Feast of Ingathering.”

6. “Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel.”

7. “You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with anything leavened.”

8. “Or let the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover remain until the morning.”

9. “The best of the firstfruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God.”

10. “You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

[Ashmoria]

And there are "some" who have scientific prowess and believe the earth is flat. Yet we don't teach that.

Can you name a testable prediction that creationism makes?

Creation. Says it in the name.

the key word in that question was "testable"

how is creation TESTABLE in the scientific theory of creationism?

[Violetza]

Good to know you care more about priests' private parts than you care about, say, the Catholic Church's stance on global poverty and its support (or lack thereof) for social justice movements.

I couldn't care less about what kinds of legal recognition are or are not granted to relationships between middle-income people with comfortable lifestyles who happen to be gay. It doesn't matter. They'll be fine either way. You know what does matter? How many children in the world are going hungry tonight. How many people have access to clean drinking water. How many people can find jobs to support their families.

Get your priorities straight, progressives.

Can I quote that in my sig?

Maybe you can put my response were I actually point out that I support addressing that as well next to the straw man argument telling me to get my priorities straight. Maybe you would also like to mention the lower socio-economic class homosexuals and homosexuals who are discriminated against, abused, subjected to corrective rape and murdered that ignorant response ignored.

[Ifreann]

In a move that could be aimed at healing a rift between science and religion, Pope Francis has said that evolution and the Big Bang are consistent with the notion of a creator. And according to the pontiff, believers should not view God as "a magician, with a magic wand."

Francis made the remarks at an assembly of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, billed as meeting to discuss "Evolving Concepts of Nature."

"When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so," Francis told the gathering, where he also dedicated a statue of his predecessor, Benedict XVI. God, Francis said, "created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment."

To be sure, the Catholic Church's views on the origins of the universe and life, unlike those of many Protestant sects, have for years been largely in line with the scientific consensus. The church has long leaned toward what some describe as "theistic evolution," i.e., a God supernaturally created the universe and life but allowed natural processes to work over billions of years.

In 1950, Pope Pius XII proclaimed that evolution was not at odds with Catholic teachings, and Pope John Paul II endorsed the view himself in 1996.

However, Pope Benedict hinted at accommodating "intelligent design," a form of creationism that has become popular in many religious circles in recent decades.

(As an aside, a recent Chapman University survey showed that more Americans believe in the lost civilization of Atlantis and that "UFOs are probably spaceships" than in evolution, and that as many people believed in Bigfoot as in the Big Bang.)

The Associated Press notes: "Francis has gone out of his way to embrace Benedict even as he steers the church on a vastly different course than that charted by the German theologian."

Francis' remarks are in keeping with a more open view he has taken to church matters and the intersection between the spiritual and secular worlds since becoming pope last year.

He has downplayed the importance of such hot-button issues as abortion, contraception and gay marriage, denounced the "cult of money," and even said that atheists can be redeemed.

But earlier this month, a group of bishops meeting at the Vatican showed that the church as a whole remains deeply divided on many of those issues.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... magic-wand

Well, the Pope has made another (relatively) progressive statement. In the past, the Catholic Church has alluded to backing evolution, however it was qualified by 'intelligent design'. He has actually declared support for the idea that the Big Bang theory and evolution are real - however that they were 'started' by God.
I think this is definitely one of the most progressive/secular statements made by the Church. Pope Francis has increasingly supported various secular ideas, such as being less intense about opposition to LGBT people, contraception, etc, and other things that were once very taboo for the Church. He shows a much more open-minded, in my opinion. I think that saying that 'God doesn't have a magic wand' is a pretty big deal for the Catholic Church. It reflects the ideas about religion that many religious (and irreligious) people may have in the 21st century. Although the Catholic Church is far from being a progressive or modern institution, it has come a long way under Pope Francis.

I think that the Pope, and whoever is predecessor is (if he is progressive, too) could continue the modernization of the Church, even if it is a very slow process. Pope Francis seems to do this modernization in a very slow way that won't offend anyone too much, while keeping up largely with public opinion. I really wish he'd just declare complete support for all the things the Church opposes, but I doubt that'd ever happen in the near or medium future.

So, NSG, what are your thoughts on this? Is Pope Francis really as progressive as everyone says he is? Is this a big deal? What's the future for the modernization of the Church?

The Pope re-stating Church beliefs, beliefs that Catholics have been holding for years, isn't really progressive or secular. He's better than the nutty American preachers desperately denying reality, but that's not really a high bar.

[Benuty]

Well, the Pope has made another (relatively) progressive statement. In the past, the Catholic Church has alluded to backing evolution, however it was qualified by 'intelligent design'. He has actually declared support for the idea that the Big Bang theory and evolution are real - however that they were 'started' by God.
I think this is definitely one of the most progressive/secular statements made by the Church. Pope Francis has increasingly supported various secular ideas, such as being less intense about opposition to LGBT people, contraception, etc, and other things that were once very taboo for the Church. He shows a much more open-minded, in my opinion. I think that saying that 'God doesn't have a magic wand' is a pretty big deal for the Catholic Church. It reflects the ideas about religion that many religious (and irreligious) people may have in the 21st century. Although the Catholic Church is far from being a progressive or modern institution, it has come a long way under Pope Francis.

I think that the Pope, and whoever is predecessor is (if he is progressive, too) could continue the modernization of the Church, even if it is a very slow process. Pope Francis seems to do this modernization in a very slow way that won't offend anyone too much, while keeping up largely with public opinion. I really wish he'd just declare complete support for all the things the Church opposes, but I doubt that'd ever happen in the near or medium future.

So, NSG, what are your thoughts on this? Is Pope Francis really as progressive as everyone says he is? Is this a big deal? What's the future for the modernization of the Church?

The Pope re-stating Church beliefs, beliefs that Catholics have been holding for years, isn't really progressive or secular. He's better than the nutty American preachers desperately denying reality, but that's not really a high bar.

Lets get them credit, they aren't ranting about fire, and brimstone like certain Americans.

[Ifreann]

The Pope re-stating Church beliefs, beliefs that Catholics have been holding for years, isn't really progressive or secular. He's better than the nutty American preachers desperately denying reality, but that's not really a high bar.

Lets get them credit, they aren't ranting about fire, and brimstone like certain Americans.

True, but neither am I.

[Phoenixfox]

That's not how the Church works buddy. If you violate the core tenets of the faith, you become heretical, and cease to be a part of the body of the True Church.

Could you point out to me which part of the Bible mentions abortion? I can't seem to find it...

If a woman has an abortion, she should be sterilizied, and charged with manslaughter, unless her life was in peril. The Bible says that God knows you before you are even born, the fetus as you call it is a person in God's eyes, someone he crafted by hand and has a plan for. When you have an abortion it is NO different than killing someone in cold blood on the streets.

[Sun Wukong]

Could you point out to me which part of the Bible mentions abortion? I can't seem to find it...

If a woman has an abortion, she should be sterilizied, and charged with manslaughter, unless her life was in peril. The Bible says that God knows you before you are even born, the fetus as you call it is a person in God's eyes, someone he crafted by hand and has a plan for. When you have an abortion it is NO different than killing someone in cold blood on the streets.

Doesn't really impact upon what Utceforp said. A timeless, omniscient being saying "I knew you before you were born" is basically a tautology. Doesn't imply anything about fetuses.

Wonderful attempt to derail, though.

[Phoenixfox]

If a woman has an abortion, she should be sterilizied, and charged with manslaughter, unless her life was in peril. The Bible says that God knows you before you are even born, the fetus as you call it is a person in God's eyes, someone he crafted by hand and has a plan for. When you have an abortion it is NO different than killing someone in cold blood on the streets.

Doesn't really impact upon what Utceforp said. A timeless, omniscient being saying "I knew you before you were born" is basically a tautology. Doesn't imply anything about fetuses.

You want actual biblical text? Fine.

In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings! like it or not, God says that life begins at conception, and the unborn child is a human being.

[Sun Wukong]

Doesn't really impact upon what Utceforp said. A timeless, omniscient being saying "I knew you before you were born" is basically a tautology. Doesn't imply anything about fetuses.

You want actual biblical text? Fine.

In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings! like it or not, God says that life begins at conception, and the unborn child is a human being.

That sounds more like a case of language being vague.

In Exodus 21:22-23 it says that the punishment for striking a pregnant woman so that the pregnancy fails is a fine, but if the woman dies as a result you must take "a life for a life." Which flat out states that the fetus does not yet count as a life. There's no other way to interpret that.

Face it, the Bible doesn't really care about abortion. It's even somewhat ambiguous as to whether you're allowed to kill your children that have been born.

[L Ron Cupboard]

If a woman has an abortion, she should be sterilizied

So do you have a Biblical quote for that, or is just a sick little fantasy all of your very own?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Doesn't really impact upon what Utceforp said. A timeless, omniscient being saying "I knew you before you were born" is basically a tautology. Doesn't imply anything about fetuses.

You want actual biblical text? Fine.

In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings! like it or not, God says that life begins at conception, and the unborn child is a human being.

You do know that the baby was, perhaps, in the latter stages of development in the narrative instead of it being a fetus, right?

Also, Elizabeth was the mother of John the Baptist, of course the narrative has to go like that. Most of those chosen by God in the Bible are told that they were chosen before they were born, but that seems to be more of a special exception trope and not a general rule for humanity.

[Martean]

Doesn't really impact upon what Utceforp said. A timeless, omniscient being saying "I knew you before you were born" is basically a tautology. Doesn't imply anything about fetuses.

You want actual biblical text? Fine.

In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings! like it or not, God says that life begins at conception, and the unborn child is a human being.

It is not god who says that, rather than a series of anonymus writers during the first centuries of the a.C era.

And yes, it's a respetable position, but there are plenty of other [secular] more efficient ways to defend your position on abortion.

[Stormwind-City]

All in good time.

Not gonna happen. The church is still a beacon of hope for those who believe in the sanctity of marriage. No left wing extremist like yourself is going to change the definition of marriage just because you rally behind the "they are in love" argument

Lol. Me, a far left extremist? I'm center left. And yes, it will change. Religions that do not change are ones that die out. Ironically, such changes are a form of proto-evolution.

[Herskerstad]

I love how Francis has basically made quite a few atheists discover what Catholicism has been for the last 50 years.

[Stormwind-City]

The vocal minority of conservative American Protestants have completely taken over the public image of Christianity, at least in the Western world.

We have a lot of work to do.

American Protestants have rap songs and Christian rock music. What do you guys have? Huh? Nothing. This is why you guys are losing. *nods*

Songs like "Jesus is my nigga"-which is sung by a really old white pastor. Look it up on YT.

[Western-Ukraine]

This is real blasphemy... Remove that incompetent fool immediately from glorious Vatican!

[Toronina]

American Protestants have rap songs and Christian rock music. What do you guys have? Huh? Nothing. This is why you guys are losing. *nods*

Songs like "Jesus is my nigga"-which is sung by a really old white pastor. Look it up on YT.

Wait, what?

This is real blasphemy... Remove that incompetent fool immediately from glorious Vatican!

Say it all you want, you're just another right wing extremest on this thread. He is just repeating what the church has supported for years now

Also to everyone else, who showed this to Archeuland?

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

I love how Francis has basically made quite a few atheists discover what Catholicism has been for the last 50 years.

Not just atheists. Americans, mostly. As an American and a churchgoer this was news to me, and even some of my catholic friends were confused by this. America: the land where even the Catholics are Protestant.