The Father, Son, and Karl Marx

[Murkwood]

...walk into a bar.

In all seriousness, I've been reading about Communism. Don't worry, this Capitalist McCarthyist Enemy of the People still thinks it's one of the most abhorrent ideologies ever known to man. Still, it's fascinating to read about.

Anyway, the topic for today is Religion and Communism. Communists seems to have a major hatred towards religion, or what Karl Marx called the "opium for the people". Communists regimes (or so they say; I don't want to get into this debate) in Cuba, the former USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea and every other major Communist regime has tried to violently suppress religion. Communist philosophers are constantly dissing belief. Why is this? Is this right? Can Communism and religion co-exist?

Obviously, this isn't right. People should be allowed to worship as they please. As for co-existence, I have trouble seeing how it's possible. Communists, starting with Marx, have been staunch atheists. They believe in getting rid of the old reactionary beliefs, and what belief is more reactionary than religion? It's seemingly impossible to separate Communism and Atheism. I'm sure people will point to ideas like "Liberation Theology", but those ideas aren't popular with many Communists. All in all, atheism and Communism are stuck with each other. As Lenin said:

"Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism."

[Stormwind-City]

...walk into a bar.

In all seriousness, I've been reading about Communism. Don't worry, this Capitalist McCarthyist Enemy of the People still thinks it's one of the most abhorrent ideologies ever known to man. Still, it's fascinating to read about.

Anyway, the topic for today is Religion and Communism. Communists seems to have a major hatred towards religion, or what Karl Marx called the "opium for the people". Communists regimes (or so they say; I don't want to get into this debate) in Cuba, the former USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea and every other major Communist regime has tried to violently suppress religion. Communist philosophers are constantly dissing belief. Why is this? Is this right? Can Communism and religion co-exist?

Obviously, this isn't right. People should be allowed to worship as they please. As for co-existence, I have trouble seeing how it's possible. Communists, starting with Marx, have been staunch atheists. They believe in getting rid of the old reactionary beliefs, and what belief is more reactionary than religion? It's seemingly impossible to separate Communism and Atheism. I'm sure people will point to ideas like "Liberation Theology", but those ideas aren't popular with many Communists. All in all, atheism and Communism are stuck with each other.

Maybe because religion creates social divide? Marx certainly was talking about organized religion, I don't know if he cared about Deism or any other system of religion. I think that maybe he believed you can believe in a god, but you can't bring it into the society.

[Pope Joan]

Marx was really not all that negative, I wouldn't say.

He said that working people were suffering, and so they needed some kind of painkiller, and religion provided it.

I don't think he blamed religion for this, he just hoped that people would solved the root of their problems rather than the symptoms.

[Murkwood]

Marx was really not all that negative, I wouldn't say.

He said that working people were suffering, and so they needed some kind of painkiller, and religion provided it.

I don't think he blamed religion for this, he just hoped that people would solved the root of their problems rather than the symptoms.

He believed that religion was keeping the masses down and blinding them from the truth. How is this not negative?

[Pope Joan]

...walk into a bar.

In all seriousness, I've been reading about Communism. Don't worry, this Capitalist McCarthyist Enemy of the People still thinks it's one of the most abhorrent ideologies ever known to man. Still, it's fascinating to read about.

Anyway, the topic for today is Religion and Communism. Communists seems to have a major hatred towards religion, or what Karl Marx called the "opium for the people". Communists regimes (or so they say; I don't want to get into this debate) in Cuba, the former USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea and every other major Communist regime has tried to violently suppress religion. Communist philosophers are constantly dissing belief. Why is this? Is this right? Can Communism and religion co-exist?

Obviously, this isn't right. People should be allowed to worship as they please. As for co-existence, I have trouble seeing how it's possible. Communists, starting with Marx, have been staunch atheists. They believe in getting rid of the old reactionary beliefs, and what belief is more reactionary than religion? It's seemingly impossible to separate Communism and Atheism. I'm sure people will point to ideas like "Liberation Theology", but those ideas aren't popular with many Communists. All in all, atheism and Communism are stuck with each other.

Maybe because religion creates social divide? Marx certainly was talking about organized religion, I don't know if he cared about Deism or any other system of religion. I think that maybe he believed you can believe in a god, but you can't bring it into the society.

When the Pentecostal movement started in Azusa, California a century ago, black, white and Chinese, rich and poor, were all dancing together in the streets. No social divide there; that divide was very real in America (lynchings were still common) but it was not visible in Azusa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suFecF3vJW8

[Mike the Progressive]

Marx was an overrated twat who was remarkably wrong most of the time.

I think he loathed religion because religion can create divisions within society. Then again, so did/does gender, skin color, ethnicity, accents, regionalism, sexuality, etc. So clearly we should eradicate all of that too.

[Murkwood]

Marx was an overrated twat who was remarkably wrong most of the time.

I think he loathed religion because religion can create divisions within society. Then again, so did/does gender, skin color, ethnicity, accents, regionalism, sexuality, etc. So clearly we should eradicate all of that too.

You know, The Giver had some good ideas about that...

[Cetatsenia]

I believe that Karl Marx didn't actually advocate the kind of violent suppression of religion that some Communists have done. If my memory serves correctly, he was against religion but believed that being against religion also meant being against the conditions that lead to people turning to "the opium of the masses" that he believed religion was. So, I think he believed that if you changed said conditions than people turning away from religion and freeing themselves from its 'illusion' is what would naturally follow. So, not really for the violent oppression and suppression of religion.

EDIT: Going off what Pope Joan said before, religion was a symptom while the conditions were the root of the issue. The Communists that oppress religion were simply trying to destroy the symptom while Karl Marx advocated getting to the root of the problem.

[Pope Joan]

Marx was really not all that negative, I wouldn't say.

He said that working people were suffering, and so they needed some kind of painkiller, and religion provided it.

I don't think he blamed religion for this, he just hoped that people would solved the root of their problems rather than the symptoms.

He believed that religion was keeping the masses down and blinding them from the truth. How is this not negative?

I disagree that Marx looked on religion as the enemy, or thought it was keeping the masses down. It simply provided an inadequate palliative for a deeper problem. I sense a sympathy in him for those suffering from inequity. He was frustrated that people could not shake off their false consciousness and take control over their lives.

I am still frustrated about that. But I do not blame religion. I was raised Methodist, and John Wesley taught poor people how to organize, teach temselves, learn, save money and improve their lives. Scholars looked at the trends in Wesleyanism and said "Oh, woe! The middle class moved in and drove out the poor people!" But further research reveals that the surnames of those middle class "oppressors" were the same as those who earlier were poor. They simply banded together and took control of their circumstances.

[Distruzio]

Religion unrepentantly reaffirms and endorses social hierarchy. Communism is, at its core, the repudiation of that hierarchy.

[Mustard Shack]

I believe that Karl Marx didn't actually advocate the kind of violent suppression of religion that some Communists have done. If my memory serves correctly, he was against religion but believed that being against religion also meant being against the conditions that lead to people turning to "the opium of the masses" that he believed religion was. So, I think he believed that if you changed said conditions than people turning away from religion and freeing themselves from its 'illusion' is what would naturally follow. So, not really for the violent oppression and suppression of religion.

EDIT: Going off what Pope Joan said before, religion was a symptom while the conditions were the root of the issue. The Communists that oppress religion were simply trying to destroy the symptom while Karl Marx advocated going to the root of the problem and destroying the actual root of the problem.

I'm by no means educated on Marx but I've always understood it as that. He didn't actually advocate the society envisioned in the Manifesto, he simply saw that as what would be an ideal society. So ideally, there wouldn't be religion, but that's very different than actively trying to eliminate religion within the state.

[Mike the Progressive]

He believed that religion was keeping the masses down and blinding them from the truth. How is this not negative?

I disagree that Marx looked on religion as the enemy, or thought it was keeping the masses down. It simply provided an inadequate palliative for a deeper problem. I sense a sympathy in him for those suffering from inequity. He was frustrated that people could not shake off their false consciousness and take control over their lives.

That is also a reason why I think he disliked religion. He felt it limited people. Instead of being able to do anything, some things happened because of bad/good luck, a higher being desired it.

[Ashmoria]

...walk into a bar.

In all seriousness, I've been reading about Communism. Don't worry, this Capitalist McCarthyist Enemy of the People still thinks it's one of the most abhorrent ideologies ever known to man. Still, it's fascinating to read about.

Anyway, the topic for today is Religion and Communism. Communists seems to have a major hatred towards religion, or what Karl Marx called the "opium for the people". Communists regimes (or so they say; I don't want to get into this debate) in Cuba, the former USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea and every other major Communist regime has tried to violently suppress religion. Communist philosophers are constantly dissing belief. Why is this? Is this right? Can Communism and religion co-exist?

Obviously, this isn't right. People should be allowed to worship as they please. As for co-existence, I have trouble seeing how it's possible. Communists, starting with Marx, have been staunch atheists. They believe in getting rid of the old reactionary beliefs, and what belief is more reactionary than religion? It's seemingly impossible to separate Communism and Atheism. I'm sure people will point to ideas like "Liberation Theology", but those ideas aren't popular with many Communists. All in all, atheism and Communism are stuck with each other. As Lenin said:

"Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism."

I like to keep in mind the political and economic conditions in Europe when marx was writing. and how often "the church" was involved in keeping people in their places back then.

we'd never put up with that stuff nowadays so marx is less relevant to us than he was to people in the 19th century.

lenin/stalin and those guys didn't like religion because it draws people away from total dedication to communism. fuck that.

[Avenio]

That 'opium of the people' line cuts both ways, you know. Marx intended it both as meaning the dulling, addicting substance used by the upper classes to pacify the proletariat as well as in the sense of opium as 19th century medicine; it was also an important part of the poor's capability to self-medicate and keep going in the face of systemic oppression. Taking that into account, it's not that Marx hated religion, it's that he didn't think it would be necessary in a society removed from that oppressive hierarchy.

[Tsarist Chernigov]

It can not co-exist,and so Communism will fail,as it always has.

[Brutii Rebels]

Most modern communists have broken away from the necessity of Atheism from communism, I am both a committed communist, and a devout Muslim, and most major communist societies (Communist League of America) has publicly stated that their fight is with capitalism, not god.

[The New Sea Territory]

...walk into a bar.

The Father gets a little angry when Marx and the Son have a great time without him.

In all seriousness, I've been reading about Communism. Don't worry, this Capitalist McCarthyist Enemy of the People still thinks it's one of the most abhorrent ideologies ever known to man. Still, it's fascinating to read about.

I don't see how communism is one of the most abhorrent. What about monarchism, fascism's various forms, religion...? Sure, the "Vanguard Theory", or Vanguardist theories of achieving communism, are terrible and have been used to justify the Soviets and North Korea.

Anyway, the topic for today is Religion and Communism. Communists seems to have a major hatred towards religion, or what Karl Marx called the "opium for the people".

Ever heard of this man named Jesus? He was a communist before it was cool. Communists don't hate religion, and Karl Marx is not the arbiter of the communist movement.

Communists regimes (or so they say; I don't want to get into this debate) in Cuba, the former USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea and every other major Communist regime has tried to violently suppress religion.

Well, you are getting in this debate, because what you are saying is basically "anarchist dictatorship". A Communist Regime is an oxymoron. For fuck's sake, Cambodia didn't really claim to be communist.

Communist philosophers are constantly dissing belief.

You said philosophers. Plural. Name another besides Marx.

Why is this? Is this right? Can Communism and religion co-exist?

Uh...yeah. They can. Maybe they "dis" belief because religion has historically been used to justify tyranny and oppression?

Obviously, this isn't right. People should be allowed to worship as they please.

...until your belief is used to justify state-sanctioned oppression and war. Then your "worship" is nonsense.

As for co-existence, I have trouble seeing how it's possible.

You clearly aren't a golfer.

Communists, starting with Marx, have been staunch atheists.

What the fuck do you mean "communists"? As if that group is just one homogeneous blob you can refer to. What kind of communist? Marxists? Vanguardists? Plenty of communists are religious.

They believe in getting rid of the old reactionary beliefs, and what belief is more reactionary than religion?

Anyone who's actually read the Bible would logically be a socialist, possibly a communist, so religion should actually be on the side of communists, but religious elites don't want to give up their power.

It's seemingly impossible to separate Communism and Atheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_communism

I'm sure people will point to ideas like "Liberation Theology", but those ideas aren't popular with many Communists.

Um. We have a lot of Tolstoyists on NS. They're social anarchists, so not necessarily communists but some are.

All in all, atheism and Communism are stuck with each other.

Like water and salt are "stuck to each other" when they're in the oceans.

As Lenin said:

Stopping you here. All that quote says is that Marxism-Leninism is atheistic. You act as if that's all of communism, showing your ignorance on the subject so I doubt you've been reading much about communism besides the Manifesto and Lenin's diaries.

[The New Sea Territory]

It can not co-exist,and so Communism will fail,as it always has.

Except the fact they can, and it hasn't even been implemented.

[Mike the Progressive]

It can not co-exist,and so Communism will fail,as it always has.

Except the fact they can, and it hasn't even been implemented.

Nor will it be, because we do not live in bubbles.

[Britanania]

Yes and no.

I'd say the Communism that Marx and Lenin advocated is incompatible with religion, for various reasons, the biggest being that the State replaces God.

On the other hand, a Monastery ran by Trappists is a beautiful version of what Communism could be, with every person in the Commune working together, and each being given what he needs.

[The New Sea Territory]

Except the fact they can, and it hasn't even been implemented.

Nor will it be, because we do not live in bubbles.

I don't see how bubble residences have anything to do with classless, stateless systems of democratic worker management of means of production.

[The New Sea Territory]

Yes and no.

Something cannot be both true and false.

I'd say the Communism that Marx and Lenin advocated

They advocated for democratic socialism/authoritarian socialism, respectively, to achieve communism, not actually communism itself, and Marxism-Leninism =/= Communism, but a proposed method of achieving it, and a bad one at that.

is incompatible with religion, for various reasons,

Care to list?

the biggest being that the State replaces God.

What the hell does that even mean, Bill O'Reilly?

On the other hand, a Monastery ran by Trappists is a beautiful version of what Communism could be, with every person in the Commune working together, and each being given what he needs.

That's actually what communism is, as the Soviets weren't communists...so...yeah.

[Olivaero]

There are plenty of religious communes which have a much greater claim to living in "Communism" Than any state that has claimed the ideology.

[The New Sea Territory]

Religion unrepentantly reaffirms and endorses social hierarchy. Communism is, at its core, the repudiation of that hierarchy.

Ever read the New Testament?

[Infected Mushroom]

I'm not a Communist but I agree with Marx that religion is the opiate of the masses. Life can be very mundane, stressful, and oppressive for the majority of the people.

With the increasing availability of alternative distractions like the internet, Call of Duty, and Game of Thrones... I expect a gradual decline in the religiosity of the populace.