Hong Kong protests getting violent

[Tuthina]

Taiwan urges China to let Hong Kong 'go democratic' - The Guardian.

"Taiwan’s president, Ma Ying-jeou, has called on Beijing to 'let some people go democratic first' as he expressed support for protesters who have paralysed parts of Hong Kong for nearly two weeks."

It is in my fullest of hopes that Taiwan can eventually take control of Hong Kong, as Taiwan's principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism will only ensure that Hong Kong's embodying principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism will not be trampled on by an ever expanding bureaucracy that is looking more and more Maoist every single day.

We would rather not be subjected to its conscription and/or military training, though. If anything, I think our reaction towards such hypothetical event would be even stronger than towards the increasingly oppressive rule under PRC. Not to mention it is rather ironic that the first event we have after joining ROC and its "principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism" being a forced conscription that cannot be easily voted away (it being in its constitution) and takes away months, if not years of prime labour force from the market.

[Seraven]

It is in my fullest of hopes that Taiwan can eventually take control of Hong Kong, as Taiwan's principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism will only ensure that Hong Kong's embodying principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism will not be trampled on by an ever expanding bureaucracy that is looking more and more Maoist every single day.

We would rather not be subjected to its conscription and/or military training, though. If anything, I think our reaction towards such hypothetical event would be even stronger than towards the increasingly oppressive rule under PRC. Not to mention it is rather ironic that the first event we have after joining ROC and its "principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism" being a forced conscription that cannot be easily voted away (it being in its constitution) and takes away months, if not years of prime labour force from the market.

Taiwan needs conscription in the face of possibility that PRC does an aggressive move to Taiwan. Conscription will bolster the Taiwan Armed Forces with trained men and women, and not untrained civilians.

[Sebastianbourg]

We would rather not be subjected to its conscription and/or military training, though. If anything, I think our reaction towards such hypothetical event would be even stronger than towards the increasingly oppressive rule under PRC. Not to mention it is rather ironic that the first event we have after joining ROC and its "principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism" being a forced conscription that cannot be easily voted away (it being in its constitution) and takes away months, if not years of prime labour force from the market.

Taiwan needs conscription in the face of possibility that PRC does an aggressive move to Taiwan. Conscription will bolster the Taiwan Armed Forces with trained men and women, and not untrained civilians.

Even with conscription Taiwan (or the Republic of China) couldn't possibly defeat a Chinese (the People's Republic of China) attack on the island of Taiwan by itself. In face of a Chinese invasion Taiwan's only hope would probably be America and although the US has historically been Taiwan's ally it seems unlikely that they would attack the PRC in defence of the ROC (Taiwan).

[Republic of Coldwater]

Taiwan needs conscription in the face of possibility that PRC does an aggressive move to Taiwan. Conscription will bolster the Taiwan Armed Forces with trained men and women, and not untrained civilians.

Even with conscription Taiwan (or the Republic of China) couldn't possibly defeat a Chinese (the People's Republic of China) attack on the island of Taiwan by itself. In face of a Chinese invasion Taiwan's only hope would probably be America and although the US has historically been Taiwan's ally it seems unlikely that they would attack the PRC in defence of the ROC (Taiwan).

They could defend themselves to some degree, but it is politically retarded for China to attack Taiwan or Hong Kong because of their geographical location, which makes those two places integral for trade with Southeast Asia.

[Republic of Coldwater]

It is in my fullest of hopes that Taiwan can eventually take control of Hong Kong, as Taiwan's principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism will only ensure that Hong Kong's embodying principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism will not be trampled on by an ever expanding bureaucracy that is looking more and more Maoist every single day.

We would rather not be subjected to its conscription and/or military training, though. If anything, I think our reaction towards such hypothetical event would be even stronger than towards the increasingly oppressive rule under PRC. Not to mention it is rather ironic that the first event we have after joining ROC and its "principles of liberty, democracy and capitalism" being a forced conscription that cannot be easily voted away (it being in its constitution) and takes away months, if not years of prime labour force from the market.

Would you support conscription being the only stranglehold on freedom or a gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom?

[Tuthina]

Would you support conscription being the only stranglehold on freedom or a gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom?

I would prefer to support the one that is not literally forcing me to join a profession that revolves around killing people and (more likely) getting myself and other oppressed people of the same rank killed. Given the regimented nature of the military, especially for a non-voluntary armed force, I would say that it is already a "gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom" for the duration of the conscription.

Taiwan needs conscription in the face of possibility that PRC does an aggressive move to Taiwan. Conscription will bolster the Taiwan Armed Forces with trained men and women, and not untrained civilians.

Maybe, but at least personally I do not see a lot of people, especially those from Hong Kong, to voluntarily join a regime that needs conscription to defend itself. Oppressive as the PRC might be, at least they are not literally trying to get us killed.

[Socialist Czechia]

Taiwan needs conscription in the face of possibility that PRC does an aggressive move to Taiwan. Conscription will bolster the Taiwan Armed Forces with trained men and women, and not untrained civilians.

Even with conscription Taiwan (or the Republic of China) couldn't possibly defeat a Chinese (the People's Republic of China) attack on the island of Taiwan by itself. In face of a Chinese invasion Taiwan's only hope would probably be America and although the US has historically been Taiwan's ally it seems unlikely that they would attack the PRC in defence of the ROC (Taiwan).

Actually, Taiwan is fortified in comparable degree like Switzerland, with even whole air bases literally thrusted into mountains.
Invasion, even if PRC managed to destroy ROC's navy and air force quickly, would be so bloody, that it would destabilize whole regime and crippled it's army for years. In the end, they would conquered only burned soil full of refugees, mostly hostile insurgents.

Another thing, Taiwan has (or had) access to ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons through it's 'outcast' friends from Israel and South Africa. Israel still denies to have nuclear warheads, as much as ROC, so who knows And since ROC isn't recognized as legitimate Chinese government, they can't have signed anti-Mass destruction weapon treaties. So ROC can have nuclear, chemical and bio weapons without any risk of embargo or any other action, since ROC doesn't exist for most of the world

[Republic of Coldwater]

Would you support conscription being the only stranglehold on freedom or a gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom?

I would prefer to support the one that is not literally forcing me to join a profession that revolves around killing people and (more likely) getting myself and other oppressed people of the same rank killed. Given the regimented nature of the military, especially for a non-voluntary armed force, I would say that it is already a "gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom" for the duration of the conscription.

And the Chinese Government is a gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom for the duration of your life, so which one is better, no freedom for your entire life or no freedom for two years?

[Tuthina]

I would prefer to support the one that is not literally forcing me to join a profession that revolves around killing people and (more likely) getting myself and other oppressed people of the same rank killed. Given the regimented nature of the military, especially for a non-voluntary armed force, I would say that it is already a "gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom" for the duration of the conscription.

And the Chinese Government is a gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom for the duration of your life, so which one is better, no freedom for your entire life or no freedom for two years?

The one that does not involve me killing people or (more likely) getting myself killed. I think it is a rather obvious choice, personally speaking.

Also, I highly suspect that we are not talking about the same China, given that I am currently living in China and the gargantuan bureaucracy is nowhere in sight. Which parallel universe do you hail from, if I may ask?

[West Aurelia]

Video of Apparent Beating of Protester in Hong Kong Stirs Anger - The New York Times.

"In a video that quickly transfixed and outraged many in Hong Kong and beyond, a group of police officers appeared to take a pro-democracy demonstrator into a dark corner early Wednesday morning and kick him repeatedly while his hands were bound."

This is an outrageous display of police brutality against peaceful protestors. Even if the protests weren't peaceful, this protestor had already been arrested and beating him would serve no purpose. I hope the officers responsible are punished.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Video of Apparent Beating of Protester in Hong Kong Stirs Anger - The New York Times.

"In a video that quickly transfixed and outraged many in Hong Kong and beyond, a group of police officers appeared to take a pro-democracy demonstrator into a dark corner early Wednesday morning and kick him repeatedly while his hands were bound."

This is an outrageous display of police brutality against peaceful protestors. Even if the protests weren't peaceful, this protestor had already been arrested and beating him would serve no purpose. I hope the officers responsible are punished.

This is a violation of the civil liberties of Hong Kongers who are peacefully protesting for the human right to vote. If this was ordered by the government, then I hope that a revolution and a secession would take place, but if this is an isolated case, the police ought to be punished for the baseless initiation of force.

[West Aurelia]

PM Cameron says Britain should stand up for Hong Kong rights - Reuters.

"Answering a question in parliament about the unrest, Cameron said it was important people in Hong Kong were able to enjoy freedoms and rights set out in an Anglo-Chinese agreement before Britain handed it back to China in 1997.

'It is important that democracy involves real choices,' Cameron said, stressing the importance Britain attached to the agreement. 'It talks about rights and freedoms, including those of person, of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of travel, of movement, and, indeed, of strike. These are important freedoms, jointly guaranteed through that joint declaration and it's that which, most of all, we should stand up for.'"

The US and Taiwan have both stated that they support Hong Kong's right to democracy. Now that the UK is supporting it, it may push China - if only slightly - to listen to the protestor's demands.

[Tuthina]

Video of Apparent Beating of Protester in Hong Kong Stirs Anger - The New York Times.

"In a video that quickly transfixed and outraged many in Hong Kong and beyond, a group of police officers appeared to take a pro-democracy demonstrator into a dark corner early Wednesday morning and kick him repeatedly while his hands were bound."

This is an outrageous display of police brutality against peaceful protestors. Even if the protests weren't peaceful, this protestor had already been arrested and beating him would serve no purpose. I hope the officers responsible are punished.

This is a violation of the civil liberties of Hong Kongers who are peacefully protesting for the human right to vote. If this was ordered by the government, then I hope that a revolution and a secession would take place, but if this is an isolated case, the police ought to be punished for the baseless initiation of force.

Even though no one is actually calling for succession?

Incidentally,what they are protesting for (at least originally) is the right to nominate candidates for the Chief Executive. Not even Beijing is disputing their right to vote for the candidates. Personally, I think it would be more respectful of the protesters if they are to voice their support towards the movement.

[Allanea]

The right to vote is meaningfless without the ability to nominate candidates, that much should be obvious.

I think that violence in this context is justified.

The Chinese government is one of the most oppressive ones in the world, and it has elaborately closed off all avenues of peaceful resistance. While obviously it's nearly impossible for the Hong Kong residents to *win*, they're certainly justified ethically in turning to a violent uprising.

[Socialist Czechia]

PRC should be careful about fragile looking dudes like Joshua Wong. Such fragile dudes, already beaten...one a little more stupid cop, one more violent situation and they have martyr problems immediately

[Novo Portugal]

God damn it China. They aren't even communist anymore, they're just Fascist by this point.
RIP Chinese Communism 1949-1976

Because Mao was sooo awesome, he never tear gassed people... only you know... killed and starved +45 million people.

[Socialist Czechia]

God damn it China. They aren't even communist anymore, they're just Fascist by this point.
RIP Chinese Communism 1949-1976

Because Mao was sooo awesome, he never tear gassed people... only you know... killed and starved +45 million people.

Compared what would happened in case of ROC's victory, it's just minor collateral damage. It's easy to yell about how someone is totally evil, without considering highly possible alternatives.

ROC would be (kinda still is, even after reforms) much more harsh regime full of camps and 'anti-communist' purges all over country, repeatedly. Do you think there would be less victims? Even more, probably.

[Novo Portugal]

Because Mao was sooo awesome, he never tear gassed people... only you know... killed and starved +45 million people.

Compared what would happened in case of ROC's victory, it's just minor collateral damage. It's easy to yell about how someone is totally evil, without considering highly possible alternatives.

ROC would be (kinda still is, even after reforms) much more harsh regime full of camps and 'anti-communist' purges all over country, repeatedly. Do you think there would be less victims? Even more, probably.

+45 million people is hardly a "minor collateral damage"

[Republic of Coldwater]

And the Chinese Government is a gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom for the duration of your life, so which one is better, no freedom for your entire life or no freedom for two years?

The one that does not involve me killing people or (more likely) getting myself killed. I think it is a rather obvious choice, personally speaking.

Also, I highly suspect that we are not talking about the same China, given that I am currently living in China and the gargantuan bureaucracy is nowhere in sight. Which parallel universe do you hail from, if I may ask?

Compulsory military service =/= getting killed in war. You are just being trained and temporarily apart of the military

Yeah, try accessing YouTube, Facebook or Twitter, and the government brainwashes their children, monopolizes many industries, censors opinion and arrests political opponents, so it is a large bureaucracy.

[Socialist Czechia]

Compared what would happened in case of ROC's victory, it's just minor collateral damage. It's easy to yell about how someone is totally evil, without considering highly possible alternatives.

ROC would be (kinda still is, even after reforms) much more harsh regime full of camps and 'anti-communist' purges all over country, repeatedly. Do you think there would be less victims? Even more, probably.

+45 million people is hardly a "minor collateral damage"

In case of China? Yes. 8% of population? Just Poland lost 17% in war. Question is, though, how much numbers +45 are legit.
So called Ukrainian famine's estimates, for example, are around 1.8 to 12 million. Which are, I dare to say, very different numbers. Like if how many millions Native Americans were massacred or if it were 5 or 20 million Africans killed and mutilated by Belgians.
At least Germans, French and British were better in that. All bodies in own extermination camps moreless counted, as is proper for modern, civilised nations.

[Distruzio]

Because Mao was sooo awesome, he never tear gassed people... only you know... killed and starved +45 million people.

Compared what would happened in case of ROC's victory, it's just minor collateral damage. It's easy to yell about how someone is totally evil, without considering highly possible alternatives.

ROC would be (kinda still is, even after reforms) much more harsh regime full of camps and 'anti-communist' purges all over country, repeatedly. Do you think there would be less victims? Even more, probably.

I'm only offering a personal opinion here but the ROC was much preferable to PRC. Easily.

[Socialist Czechia]

Compared what would happened in case of ROC's victory, it's just minor collateral damage. It's easy to yell about how someone is totally evil, without considering highly possible alternatives.

ROC would be (kinda still is, even after reforms) much more harsh regime full of camps and 'anti-communist' purges all over country, repeatedly. Do you think there would be less victims? Even more, probably.

I'm only offering a personal opinion here but the ROC was much preferable to PRC. Easily.

I am only saying, that after so much decades of instability, conflicts and suffering, peaceful China after Second Sino-Japanese and Civil War is just fantasy. There would slaughter even without PRC or ROC. Kuomintang's, nationalist fascist regime on chinese mainland wasn't some Peronist 'fascism with humane face' (yes, LOL).
ROC on Taiwan, in defensive position, has no choice but be more soft. As mainland China's sole government, it would be asian version of Greater Reich - remember that Kuomintang was, amongst other things, very irredentist, with 'legit chinese claims' everywhere around borders.

[Tuthina]

The one that does not involve me killing people or (more likely) getting myself killed. I think it is a rather obvious choice, personally speaking.

Also, I highly suspect that we are not talking about the same China, given that I am currently living in China and the gargantuan bureaucracy is nowhere in sight. Which parallel universe do you hail from, if I may ask?

Compulsory military service =/= getting killed in war. You are just being trained and temporarily apart of the military

Yeah, try accessing YouTube, Facebook or Twitter, and the government brainwashes their children, monopolizes many industries, censors opinion and arrests political opponents, so it is a large bureaucracy.

Yes, but given that the job description is either trying to kill people when ordered or die trying, I would say it is a rather important part of it. Not to mention the likelihood of such circumstances in the scenario of an independent Hong Kong versus a presumably hostile PRC. Personally, it is hardly a desirable choice compared with what we have now.

No one denies that PRC has a large and oppressive bureaucracy supporting a rather authoritarian government. Just that, you know, it is also not exactly the "gargantuan bureaucracy controlling every possible freedom for the duration of my life" as you claimed.

The right to vote is meaningfless without the ability to nominate candidates, that much should be obvious.

I think that violence in this context is justified.

The Chinese government is one of the most oppressive ones in the world, and it has elaborately closed off all avenues of peaceful resistance. While obviously it's nearly impossible for the Hong Kong residents to *win*, they're certainly justified ethically in turning to a violent uprising.

It is so, just that I think there are enough misinformation around that we can all benefit from some corrections. As for the violence, the protesters are actually exceptionally peaceful for the most part. It is the local police force and some anti-protesters that are using more violence than it seems appropriate.

[Distruzio]

I'm only offering a personal opinion here but the ROC was much preferable to PRC. Easily.

I am only saying, that after so much decades of instability, conflicts and suffering, peaceful China after Second Sino-Japanese and Civil War is just fantasy. There would slaughter even without PRC or ROC. Kuomintang's, nationalist fascist regime on chinese mainland wasn't some Peronist 'fascism with humane face' (yes, LOL).
ROC on Taiwan, in defensive position, has no choice but be more soft. As mainland China's sole government, it would be asian version of Greater Reich - remember that Kuomintang was, amongst other things, very irredentist, with 'legit chinese claims' everywhere around borders.

As I said. ROC in mainland China would have been better for the allies, China, and Japan post war. Even if they were fascist.

[Seraven]

I am only saying, that after so much decades of instability, conflicts and suffering, peaceful China after Second Sino-Japanese and Civil War is just fantasy. There would slaughter even without PRC or ROC. Kuomintang's, nationalist fascist regime on chinese mainland wasn't some Peronist 'fascism with humane face' (yes, LOL).
ROC on Taiwan, in defensive position, has no choice but be more soft. As mainland China's sole government, it would be asian version of Greater Reich - remember that Kuomintang was, amongst other things, very irredentist, with 'legit chinese claims' everywhere around borders.

As I said. ROC in mainland China would have been better for the allies, China, and Japan post war. Even if they were fascist.

How?