Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Imperial City-States]

"Russia is less authoritarian than the United States"

[LoveIra]

And Obama is a fashist.

It seems like some left-wing Alex Jones.

[Imperial City-States]

So just a general question,

How is that guy able to travel between the West and Eastern forces with what seems to be relative impunity. I mean when you sit and thing about it, he's been to major staging area's for the Separatist. He could probably feed that information to the Ukrainian Army for rather interesting results from a military standpoint.

[Teemant]

There is no justification for conquests other than resources and influence, no matter if 'invaders' are Mongols, Romans, Russians, Germans, French, Brits or Japs.

And still, Russians actually made much less unprovoked ínvasions to foreign countries than Brits or French did. And while they could argue they more united Eastern Slavs than colonize foreign lands, Western powers invaded everyone, everyone they could, no matter of their culture or opinion, while Russian expansion to Siberia and Central Asia was ultimately self-defense against aggressive Khanates and violent tribes.

Or do you think British conquest of Africa and India was not brutal genocidal oppression, despite Brits technically 'democratic' in 19th century?

btw. as I said, I don't love Russians, but I trust more them than Germans - Russians invaded us just once, unlike Germans/Austrians.

If I must choose between German-dominated EU and Russia, I will always vote for later - besides, it's not like EU will survive another decade.

Relevant:
I'm sure the thousands of you have seen this picture. The countries in white are a list of countries that Britain has NOT invaded or colonised in the past.


Now, lets look at my map.
I really stretched the definition of "invaded or colonised", to include places as outlandish as China and Vietnam - I probably should've included Japan.

I guess "Containment" really worked. xD

When has Britain attacked or colonised Baltics?

[Baltenstein]

Meanwhile, Chechen head honcho Ramsay Bolt- uh, I mean, Ramsan Kadyrov, told his troops to shoot Russian soldiers who move through Chechen territory without his permission.

Chechnya’s leader, Ramzan Kadyrov, has told his security forces to open fire on Russian federal troops if they operate in the region without his approval.

He told his troops they could shoot at unauthorised soldiers from other regions after the killing of a man in the Chechen capital, Grozny, by security forces from a neighbouring region.

Kadyrov said: “I would like to officially state: open fire if someone from Moscow or Stavropol, it doesn’t matter, appears on your turf without your knowledge. We have to be reckoned with.”

The man was killed on Sunday in a special operation by federal forces stationed in Chechnya and law enforcement officials from Stavropol, Russian media reported.

Kadyrov, a former militant, has won huge concessions from Moscow to rule Chechnya as he pleases, essentially turning it into his own fiefdom, where dissent is not tolerated and elements of Islamic law are in place.

The unwritten deal is that Kadyrov promises the nominal loyalty to Moscow of Chechnya, a region Russia fought two bitter wars to bring under its control, and is given a free hand there in return. Many Russian politicians privately express worries about the amount of power he has built up and the potential threat his armed divisions could one day pose.

His private army came under the spotlight last month when a Chechen police officer was arrested as one of the main suspects in the murder of the Russian opposition leader, Boris Nemtsov, in February.

Kadyrov praised the suspect, Zaur Dadaev, as a brave soldier and a deeply religious man.

He has always denied allegations of human rights abuses and extrajudicial killings, but the deaths of his opponents have raised questions. In 2009, Dubai police issued an arrest warrant for Kadyrov’s cousin Adam Delimkhanov, who is a member of the Russian parliament and widely seen as Kadyrov’s right-hand man. Delimkhanov was wanted in connection with the murder of the Chechen commander Sulim Yamadayev in Dubai. Yamadayev’s brother Ruslan was shot dead in Moscow a year earlier.

Delimkhanov continues to sit as a Russian MP, and the Sever battalion, in which the Nemtsov murder suspect Dadayev served, is controlled by his brother.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... ian-troops

[Teemant]

No, that really only happened twice, and to a limited extent that allowed Russia to retain "plausible" (at least to those who wished it to be) deniability over the situation. They were never on the brink of taking Kyiv, the claim about them was that they A) Were the primary orchestrators of the takeover of Crimea, and B) Assisted in the early summertime defensive operations the LPR/DPR took part in when they were being widely pushed back and losing on multiple fronts to Ukrainian forces (as well as may have been involved in the initial incitement of trouble in Eastern Ukraine).

But your ability to scream over imaginary slights to Russia's truthiness is very impressive.

Oh, so there were no utterly bullshit claims about Russia capturing a land route to Crimea disseminated by the Western Press? Well then, these links must be a figment of my imagination:

The Battle of Ukraine is turning into a battle of reality versus fiction, of capable leadership versus ineptitude, of facts and careful analysis versus mythical predictions. Some “scholars” in the West are now arguing that getting the facts is no longer vital, as long as Putin can be beaten in the PR war. Frankly speaking, they are idiots. If Putin’s been in Russia for over a decade, and the first winter that Poroshenko’s in office I’m starving, no amount of propaganda, no amount of bullshit, no amount of PR, is going to convince me that Putin is the guy whom I should be rebelling against. And hungry people revolt quite violently.

Nevertheless, the idiocy persists. Apparently, according to the press, Russia needs to annex Novorossiya to establish a land route to Crimea. No, I’m not kidding. For instance:

“As Russia troops and tanks make an apparent bid to open the land route to annexed Crimea, discontent is growing in the motherland about the obvious but oft-denied war in Ukraine.” http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... asion.html

Of course that is the Daily Beast, the Russian bashing rag mag that no serious analyst should care about. But other newspapers should know better. They don’t. For instance Washington Post writes: “Another U.S. official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to describe the behind-the-scenes diplomacy, said the purpose of Russia’s “armed intervention” may be to try to open a land route to Crimea, which Russia annexed from Ukraine earlier this year.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/rus ... story.html

Then there’s the ever reliable New York Times, which can be relied on to mess up almost every war story out there: “Third, there was the possibility that Russia was trying to establish a land route to Crimea, the southern Ukrainian peninsula seized in March.” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/30/world ... .html?_r=0

CNN chimes in: “Analysts suggest that Russia may have sent its forces into Novoazovsk to secure a land route from the border to the Crimean peninsula it annexed from Ukraine in March” http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/29/world/eur ... ne-crisis/

Fox News, represent: “Analysts suggest that Russia may have sent its forces into Novoazovsk to secure a land route from the border to the Crimean peninsula it annexed from Ukraine in March” http://myfox8.com/2014/08/30/eu-leaders ... e-actions/

NBC completes the triangle: “Novoazovsk is strategically important because it lies on the main road leading from the Russian border to Ukraine’s Crimea region, which Russia annexed in March.” http://www.nbcmontana.com/news/russian- ... e/27767288

Even the local newspapers get in on the action: “And third, there was the possibility that Russia was trying to establish a land route to Crimea, the southern Ukrainian peninsula seized in March.” http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-ne ... vaders.ece

I could just keep on going: “This move opened a third front on Russia’s border with Ukraine and has led many to worry that Russia would try to conquer a land route to Crimea along the Sea of Azov.” http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... hotos.html

And going: “Analysts suggest that Russia may have sent its forces into Novoazovsk to secure a land route from the border to the Crimean peninsula it annexed from Ukraine in March” http://wtvr.com/2014/08/29/up-to-5000-r ... n-ukraine/

And going: “In doing so, the Russian president is flaunting his basic calculation that the leaders and publics of Europe are not prepared to put their economies into recession and risk their energy security to defend a point of principle in Ukraine. They weren’t over Crimea, so why over opening a land route to Crimea which Russian forces are currently trying to do?” http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peter ... o-see-why/

Have you guys looked at a map recently? Any map? Google map? Yahoo map? World Atlas? Anything that even resembles a map? It seems to me that the mass media outlets are counting on the ignorance of their consumers...

Source: https://ucgsblog.wordpress.com/2014/09/ ... f-ukraine/

More like "Most are shot, those who aren't shot are humiliated for the actions they have little relation to". No wonder they're not building prisons when they ought to build crematoriums.

Yes, that happened during the Odessa Massacre. But that was actually carried out by Kiev's forces, not the Rebels.

Language based discrimination? OMG.

If Russian doesn't speak Estonian he can't serve in public sector. It's logical. How can he serve in public sector if he can't communicate with 75% of the Estonian people??? It isn't discrimination. Russians who speak both Russian and Estonian language have no problem at all finding job if they are qualified for the position they are applying.

Russians who speak Estonian have no problem at all. As I mentioned previous Estonian education minister was Russian.

By the way most of the people in Estonian public sector speak both Estonian and Russian (especially in positions where they have to talk with ordinary people everyday).

So unless a bus driver in California has superb knowledge of English, they should be fired? Damn, you're funny. Anyways, from the source: Most did not have access to affordable language training that would enable them to qualify for employment.

What part of that is unclear? You cannot demand that people learn a language, and then not provide them with opportunities to learn the language. If you do - next step is Jim Crow. I really shouldn't have to explain this to someone who claims to love America's values. And as I mentioned before - saying Obama is president doesn't mean that there's no anti-black discrimination in Ferguson, or other, similar cities.

Lol-freaking-what? Russia's the best place to look for tracksuit-wearing baseball-bat-wielding squatting gopniks(chavs). Sadly, that's now common in any Slav country, including Ukraine, Belarus and Poland.

It became really popular when we had the 1990s Liberal Reforms and crash course Capitalism introduced. But sure, let's blame all Slavs, why not? And while we're at it, let's blame other minorities, because ethnic blaming is so much easier than actually studying socio-economic impacts!

Putin supported a president of Ukraine who tried to suppress protests, don't tell me about lack of freedom of speech.

Newsflash: I support most forms of free speech. Rabid racism, guides on how to commit mass murder/mass rape, and intentional & harmful scams, (i.e. guides on how to construct a pyramid scheme,) are excluded, but pretty much everything else I support. So I can tell you quite a bit about freedom of speech. Furthermore, I live in Cali, the mecca of free speech. So yes, I do get to talk about it, whether you like it or not.

Now, let's go back to what I actually said: "Putin cannot take away freedom of speech from Ukraine, since Ukraine did not have freedom of speech for quite a while, before Putin was born." From that we can extrapolate two things: first, you cannot take away something that someone else doesn't have. It's actually not possible. As in scientifically not possible. Second, if there was no free speech in Ukraine, that means that every president, including Putin supported president(s), including the current one, Poroshenko, suppressed/suppress it. So you're essentially saying that I don't get to talk to you about freedom of speech, because Putin negotiated with a president who suppressed it, when I'm pointing out that all presidents of Ukraine, including the one(s) supported by Putin, suppressed it. That's like me saying "Geilinor, don't talk to me about freedom of speech, Obama's got Gitmo!" It's not a smart thing to say.

Speaking of Human Rights, RuNet is your best bet for actual Civil Rights in Russia. American NGOs are extraordinarily unpopular, partly because US is supporting Kiev and pressuring the EU to do it, while refugees harassed by Kiev's inept administration are fleeing to Russia. So, if you want to yell "Human Rights in Russia suck!" - continue to do what you're doing. If you actually want to improve them, let us know. Because yelling has accomplished nothing. You can treat Russia as an equal, or you can fail. The sooner people understand this basic concept, the sooner we can start to see Human Rights improvement in Russia. Or we can yell. Your choice.

I don't know where you pulled out that bus driver example but as a person who uses bus multiple times per week I can say that language requirements for bus drivers are not so high (at least so it seems to me based on my own experiences). Pretty much he must be able to understand where customers want to go and something like "that is 1 euro please" and that's pretty much it.
It requires like A1 level of language (which is the most basic).

I mean Estonian language is teached at Russian schools too so if young Russians don't know even simplest basics I do not know how to explain it.

[Fascist Republic Of Bermuda]

Russian Defense Ministry: American advisors reportedly sighted in East Ukraine

[West Aurelia]

Interview with an American fighting for the rebels.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Interview with an American fighting for the rebels.

"America is fascist"

Boy, it's like nobody knows what that word means anymore.

[Fascist Republic Of Bermuda]

Interview with an American fighting for the rebels.

"America is fascist"

Boy, it's like nobody knows what that word means anymore.

I wouldn't be surprised if people have misused "fascist" so many times we could dig up Mussolini and use his spinning corpse for viable power.

[Jinwoy]

Relevant:
I'm sure the thousands of you have seen this picture. The countries in white are a list of countries that Britain has NOT invaded or colonised in the past.


Now, lets look at my map.
I really stretched the definition of "invaded or colonised", to include places as outlandish as China and Vietnam - I probably should've included Japan.

I guess "Containment" really worked. xD

When has Britain attacked or colonised Baltics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_ca ... 80%9319%29

Seriously. Less than fives seconds of google search.

[Teemant]

When has Britain attacked or colonised Baltics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_ca ... 80%9319%29

Seriously. Less than fives seconds of google search.

You know that British forces were helping Estonia to fight against Soviet invasion. They sent weapons aid as well.

[Washington Resistance Army]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_ca ... 80%9319%29

Seriously. Less than fives seconds of google search.

I fail to see an invasion or colonization of the Baltic, I see aid to the Estonians and the Whites.

[Jinwoy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_ca ... 80%9319%29

Seriously. Less than fives seconds of google search.

I fail to see an invasion or colonization of the Baltic, I see aid to the Estonians and the Whites.

Soldiers died and ships were sunk on the British side - I'd say that's more than just a little "aid".
More Britons died than Estonians did in this particular battle.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I fail to see an invasion or colonization of the Baltic, I see aid to the Estonians and the Whites.

Soldiers died and ships were sunk on the British side - I'd say that's more than just a little "aid".
More Britons died than Estonians did in this particular battle.

Military aid is a thing bud. That isn't an invasion and most certainly not colonization.

[Herargon]

What do British invasions have to do with the Crimea? Could you guys be so kind to elaborate and tell me?

Also, I'd like to point out that the second map provided on this page has not been explained in an adequate way. What is the second map about? It is vague and therefore may be unreliable, especially if done so without providing a legitimate source.

[Teemant]

I fail to see an invasion or colonization of the Baltic, I see aid to the Estonians and the Whites.

Soldiers died and ships were sunk on the British side - I'd say that's more than just a little "aid".
More Britons died than Estonians did in this particular battle.

This was part of the Estonian Independence War. Maybe you want to check these numbers again and tell me how many Estonians (fighters) there was (hint: almost 100 000).

You don't know the background and context of the events but just posted a link from wikipedia "claiming to proof colonization of Estonia by Britain" (without even looking at it probably) and now you're trying to proof I don't know what.

[Herargon]

Soldiers died and ships were sunk on the British side - I'd say that's more than just a little "aid".
More Britons died than Estonians did in this particular battle.

This was part of the Estonian Independence War. Maybe you want to check these numbers again and tell me how many Estonians (fighters) there was (hint: almost 100 000).

You don't know the background and context of the events but just posted a link from wikipedia "claiming to proof colonization of Estonia by Britain" (without even looking at it probably) and now you're trying to proof I don't know what.

You did not provide a source neither for your last statement: 100,000 Estonian fighters. That is a large part of the population. What is defined as being a fighter according to you? Passive or active, for example?

[Teemant]

This was part of the Estonian Independence War. Maybe you want to check these numbers again and tell me how many Estonians (fighters) there was (hint: almost 100 000).

You don't know the background and context of the events but just posted a link from wikipedia "claiming to proof colonization of Estonia by Britain" (without even looking at it probably) and now you're trying to proof I don't know what.

You did not provide a source neither for your last statement: 100,000 Estonian fighters. That is a large part of the population. What is defined as being a fighter according to you? Passive or active, for example?

These numbers are everywhere even on wikipedia page (numbers differ on different page but 80 000+ is minimum). This number means people who took part of the war actively (with guns and stuff).

[Bratislavskaya]

Interview with an American fighting for the rebels.

I'll be honest, even I think he is a tad liberal in his use of Fascist and Nazi. I'm less "All Ukrops are Bandera Nazi's" more "US is continuing to project it's interests in other nations, which is a bad thing". Although I will say that there is definitely much more Neo-Nazism and the like in Ukraine than the Western Media lets on.

[Teemant]

Interview with an American fighting for the rebels.

I'll be honest, even I think he is a tad liberal in his use of Fascist and Nazi. I'm less "All Ukrops are Bandera Nazi's" more "US is continuing to project it's interests in other nations, which is a bad thing". Although I will say that there is definitely much more Neo-Nazism and the like in Ukraine than the Western Media lets on.

Why do Ukrainians get blamed of facism? It makes no sense.

It was Russians who gathered in Ukraine and started waving Russian flags and screaming "Rossija Rossija". These same people have declared their so called Novorossija in Eastern Ukraine but many people have completely ignored the fact that in Lugansk and Donetsk oblast (so called Novorossija) Ukrainians are majority not Russians. Because Russians screamed loudest there doesn't mean that they now have the right to dictate their terms to everybody.

I guess assaulting pro-Ukraine people on the streets is considered "defense against fascism" as well?

I don't know why is it that Ukrainian patriots who defend their country are called fascists while people who try to break this country apart call themselves fighters against fascism?

[DBJ]

"Russia is less authoritarian than the United States"

My favourite part was the nutjob claiming the majority of westerners are gay and the western governments are promoting homosexuality as a method of population control. I've seen quite a few interviews with pro-russian rebels and every single one of them was insane.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Interview with an American fighting for the rebels.

I'll be honest, even I think he is a tad liberal in his use of Fascist and Nazi. I'm less "All Ukrops are Bandera Nazi's" more "US is continuing to project it's interests in other nations, which is a bad thing". Although I will say that there is definitely much more Neo-Nazism and the like in Ukraine than the Western Media lets on.

It's not even so much just Ukraine, pretty much all of eastern Europe (especially Russia) has an unhealthy amount of neo-Nazi's. Which really confuses the hell out of me because I just can't understand how a Slav could say Heil Hitler

[Imperial City-States]

"Russia is less authoritarian than the United States"

My favourite part was the nutjob claiming the majority of westerners are gay and the western governments are promoting homosexuality as a method of population control. I've seen quite a few interviews with pro-russian rebels and every single one of them was insane.

The Serbians in some of the other videos were even more amusing.

[Bratislavskaya]

Why do Ukrainians get blamed of facism? It makes no sense.

Well as mentioned, the Neo-Nazi's and other far right groups do have a decent amount of pull in government.

I guess assaulting pro-Ukraine people on the streets is considered "defense against fascism" as well?

And I suppose attacking pro-Russians and/or Anti-Poroshenko activists and/or People with legitimate criticisms of the current government in the streets, and torturing Communist Party Activists in a public park (That happened either during or just after the Maidan) is "defending against Russian Aggression"?

It's not even so much just Ukraine, pretty much all of eastern Europe (especially Russia) has an unhealthy amount of neo-Nazi's. Which really confuses the hell out of me because I just can't understand how a Slav could say Heil Hitler

True. However, they do have some fairly considerable pull in Ukraine by this point. I mean, they are starting a national holiday to celebrate the UPA: a group that's only achievement was murdering 100,000 Polish People. They were right wing nationalists, who collaborated with the Nazi's, committed ethnic cleansing, and did nothing to further the aim of Ukrainian Independence, yet are now celebrated as national heroes by the government. If that doesn't demonstrate the pull of far right groups in the government I don't know what does.