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Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

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Lytenburgh
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Founded: Nov 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Lytenburgh » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:52 pm

CyberBerkut strikes again! This time - they've hacked Ukrainian Defense Ministry and uploaded files and memos concerning USA's military help to the Ukraine since the coup in February 22.

We CyberBerkut have already warned about the unacceptance of Washington's interference in the internal affairs of our country. We have also repeatedly stated our opposition to the anti-people policies of the Kiev government, which put Ukraine in dependence of the United States. During the recent visit of Joseph Biden in Kiev on November 20-21, we have gained access to confidential material belonging to the State Department, stored on the mobile device of one of the members of the American delegation.

Today we are ready to introduce the citizens of Ukraine, the United States and the entire world community to documents revealing the real volume and direction of US aid to "resolve" the Ukrainian crisis.

After examining only some of the materials one can make an impression that the army of Ukraine - is a division of the US Armed Forces. Funding levels are staggering in their scope, and the decline of Ukrainian troops are staggering in their depth. At the same time, hundreds of thousands of dollars are coming to the personal accounts of military personel and used by individual officers for personal needs. What will you say to that, American taxpayers?


Among the plethora of documents uploaded by CyberBerkut there are such as:

1) Command of the Ukrainian Navy humbly asks their American... "counterpart"... to pay travel expenses for Ukrainian officers during a training exercise conducted by the Pentagon on the Ukrainian territory. CyberBerkuts ask, rhetorically, "why send over half a million of hryvnas to the card account of Captain 3rd Rank Denis Stupak? Besides of using unchecked, hidden deposits to evade taxes and personally enrich themselves. Probably, Ukrainian and American journalists would be interesting to find this officer and ask him some questions."

Image


2) Next we have this - Military Academy of Hetman Sagaydachniy seeks compensation (from the US of A, of course) for travel expenses and meals for 11 of its officers and one civilian during the military exercises. All in all they want nearly 53 000 hryvnas for them. This raises the question - why these Navy officers demand a "travel" pay of 1310 hryvnas per day, while other officers from the same Military Academy of Hetman Sagaydachniy - only 500 hryvnas?

1, 2.

3) And, of course, Ukrainian Military are demanding funding for a "really pressing" issues - like the creation of "linguistic laboratories" and massive education of its personel in English language (obviously, to better understand commands of their new masters). For that they demand more than 1$ mil - 1, 2, 3.

4) Now, a relly "hot" stuff. Several documents bearing signatures of both B. Obama and J. Kerry confirming that the US Army will supply counterbattery radars to the Ukraine. Poroshenko himself proudly mentioned that several times. And finally that'e happened! As many as three of said radars were supplied to embattled UkrArmy - for a "mere" 400 grand USDs. And that's without counting the numerous kickbacks and plain old corruption, that will enrich a lot of people both in Kiev and Washington.

Here are all necessary documents - with signatures, serial numbers, all legal stuff:

And, yes, a promise of at least 5 mil USD of American taxpayers money to be allocated to train the Ukrainian army and at lest $20 mil in "commodities" to the Ukrainian military at large:

Image


5) Despite their promise of sending only "non-lethal" stuff to the Ukrainian army, Joe Biden's delegation gave their Ukrainian "colleagues" this list of "material-technical support" that they are ready to supply UkrArmy with: 400 sniper rifles, 2000 assault rifles, 720 grenade launchers, more then 200 mortars, and more than 70 000 bombs for them, 150 stingers, 420 anti-tank missiles etc.

Image
Image


Surely, US of A didn't forget now nearly non-existent Ukrainian Navy and plan to supply it with 150 sets of diving gear

6) And here are the "selfies" of selflessly working agents of the "State Department", who made all those supplies possible: 1, 2, 3, 4.

P.S. There are a lot more documents on their site.
Last edited by Lytenburgh on Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Banderia
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Founded: Nov 25, 2014
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Postby Banderia » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:18 pm

Bullshit. The February 21 event was not a coup. It was the people who wished more democracy and freedom after year long tyranny of Yanukovych. He killed thousands of his people on the Maidan and when he fled to Russia he beged Putin to launch a millitary campaign against the country he is supposedly representing.

But than against the Muscowites propagandist and their media outlets is nobody taking seriously.

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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:20 pm

Banderia wrote:Bullshit. The February 21 event was not a coup. It was the people who wished more democracy and freedom after year long tyranny of Yanukovych. He killed thousands of his people on the Maidan and when he fled to Russia he beged Putin to launch a millitary campaign against the country he is supposedly representing.

But than against the Muscowites propagandist and their media outlets is nobody taking seriously.

Then why couldn't they wait for the election? Yanukovich was fairly elected.
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Banderia
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Postby Banderia » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:24 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Banderia wrote:Bullshit. The February 21 event was not a coup. It was the people who wished more democracy and freedom after year long tyranny of Yanukovych. He killed thousands of his people on the Maidan and when he fled to Russia he beged Putin to launch a millitary campaign against the country he is supposedly representing.

But than against the Muscowites propagandist and their media outlets is nobody taking seriously.

Then why couldn't they wait for the election? Yanukovich was fairly elected.

He signed an agreement with the opposition the night before. Instead of standing to what he signed he ordered that night to the Berkut to shot even more people. That is not what a president is supposed to do.

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Oaledonia
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Postby Oaledonia » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:35 pm

Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?
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The Carlisle
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Postby The Carlisle » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:37 pm

Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?

No.
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Banderia
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Postby Banderia » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:39 pm

Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?

To be fair I dont blaime him. It is the Russians who are under a hard-core propaganda from their media. The education system is teaching them false history and to not tolerate different people.

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Germanic Templars
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Postby Germanic Templars » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:39 pm

Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?


Meh, I just scan (speed read) through it.

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Korva
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Postby Korva » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:40 pm

Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?

I generally skim them to spot the most egregious errors.

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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:49 pm

Banderia wrote:Bullshit. The February 21 event was not a coup.


No, it was exacltly a coup - not a revolution. Revolution is when one governmental formation is replaced by another - like when the Great French Revolution toppled Absolutist Mnarchy and replaced it with Republic.

As for the Ukraine - one group of oligarch puppets replaced another.

Banderia wrote:It was the people who wished more democracy and freedom after year long tyranny of Yanukovych.


"A year-long tyranny"? Wat?

This implies that now, one year latter, the Ukrainians are more "free" and "democratic", right?

Banderia wrote: He killed thousands of his people on the Maidan and when he fled to Russia he beged Putin to launch a millitary campaign against the country he is supposedly representing.


"Thousands"? Now, it is "thousands"? Hmm... how about some proof for such bold claims? Oh, btw, how is independent investigation of sniper-shootings goes by? Any succsses?
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Oaledonia
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Postby Oaledonia » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:50 pm

The Carlisle wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?

No.
Korva wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?

I generally skim them to spot the most egregious errors.
Germanic Templars wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?


Meh, I just scan (speed read) through it.
Banderia wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?

To be fair I dont blaime him. It is the Russians who are under a hard-core propaganda from their media. The education system is teaching them false history and to not tolerate different people.


Thanks for the quick answers.
Last edited by Oaledonia on Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:53 pm

Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?

That's a lot more than 'edgy snark'. Normally, that would earn you a minimum of a *** three day forumban ***, but based on your recent responses in this thread, four moderators agree that we should go directly to *** Nation Deletion ***.

You can take the 3 day ban on your next nation. Go play elsewhere for a while.

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Lytenburgh
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Postby Lytenburgh » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:59 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:Question for posters: Does anyone actually read the filthy diarrhea flowing from Glorious Comrade(TM) Lyt's mouth?

That's a lot more than 'edgy snark'. Normally, that would earn you a minimum of a *** three day forumban ***, but based on your recent responses in this thread, four moderators agree that we should go directly to *** Nation Deletion ***.

You can take the 3 day ban on your next nation. Go play elsewhere for a while.


Thank you for a timely response
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Korva
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Postby Korva » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:00 pm

Lytenburgh wrote:Now, a relly "hot" stuff. Several documents bearing signatures of both B. Obama and J. Kerry confirming that the US Army will supply counterbattery radars to the Ukraine. Poroshenko himself proudly mentioned that several times. And finally that'e happened! As many as three of said radars were supplied to embattled UkrArmy - for a "mere" 400 grand USDs. And that's without counting the numerous kickbacks and plain old corruption, that will enrich a lot of people both in Kiev and Washington.

That is not controversial or covert. If the Cyber Berkut fakes are for once real, then it would actually be fairly cheap.

I understand however that the exchange from USD to Russian funny money might make ~130,000 dollars per unit seem exorbitant to some.

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Divitaen
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Postby Divitaen » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:11 pm

Banderia wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Then why couldn't they wait for the election? Yanukovich was fairly elected.

He signed an agreement with the opposition the night before. Instead of standing to what he signed he ordered that night to the Berkut to shot even more people. That is not what a president is supposed to do.


The protestors were pretty unreasonable though. They were unwilling to meet any compromise, they just wanted Yanukovytch out, even after he compromised so much and was willing to replace half his cabinet with members of the opposition. I don't think it was really fair for them to be so dogmatic. The fact of the matter is that Viktor Yanukovytch was fairly and democratically elected, even his political opponents agreed to the result even after they had taken power in the Orange Revolution and all, and international observers did not dispute the result of the last election. You essentially had a hostile takeover and a government replaced with right-wing fascists seeking to force Russian speakers to change their official language to Ukrainian. I'm afraid I find it hard to sympathise, despite how corrupt and authoritarian Yanukovytch was.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:22 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:Oh for the love of all that is unholy. You seriously believe that idolization of Adolf Hitler will become mainstream because we all secretly, deep down inside, hate Russians/Slavs?


Not all, not even most, but some organizations, including some morons calling themselves TYT, do. However, that's beside the point, as it's not about Slavs, or any ethnic group/race in particular. Whenever a country experiences a "humanitarian" intervention or a "color" revolution, racism usually tends to rise, by it Yugoslavia, Libya, Iraq, Georgia, etc. So while Clinton's recognition of Slovenia, or NATO's bombing of Belgrade, as well as the showtrials, probably didn't do much for preventing ethnic violence, much like the War in Iraq, no ethnic group was specifically targeted. It's just stupidity in general, when Neolibs/Neocons want to intervene in some country, and sometimes lack even the most basic knowledge about how the country actually functions. For instance, if you introduce economic reforms and loosen the restriction on freedom of speech at the same time, you might end up with the rise in racism, and that's one contribution to the fall of the USSR.

Even if you take the current policies that EU runs, i.e. open borders and austerity, (the same policies proposed for the collegiate system in California by dumb bitch Napolitano, who should've stayed the fuck away from us,) you're going to get a rise in racism. When austerity hits, the immigrants become the scapegoats, and if immigrants are from another ethnicity, racism rises. It's a proven system, that the EU is proudly implementing.

That's why Russia's proposal of the law, the law that only US/Canada/Ukraine voted "no" on, is critical. There's a fine line between Fascists like Hitler, who was a rabid racist, and Fascists like Mussolini/Franco, who weren't. Racists, perhaps, but not rabid racists. 90% of Jews in Germany were wiped out, 10% in Italy. Would you rather have a 90% chance of survival or a 10% chance of survival? One is clearly much more terrible. As thus, the resolution is not so much against Fascism, as it is against Fascism with rabid racism attached. It's one thing to tear down a statue of Lenin yelling "fuck you Lenin!" It's another to tear down a statue of Lenin saying "Russian speaking Jews GTFO!"


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Front National's still Fascist? I though Marine put a stop to that crap when she took over.


You really thing a party that has had a fascist tradition for decades somehow abandoned all of it just because it discovered more family-friendly PR strategies? I won't deny that FN has taken a turn to the centre (mainly for election success purposes) in its rhetoric, but the hard voter base, the key members, and the basic ideologic tenets are still the same. Every so often, Le Pen is forced to exclude members who promote fascist/neo-nazi ideas to visibly.


I disagree. Parties can, and do, change over time if their make up changes. Reagan and Clinton both reshaped their respective parties. The Democratic Party led by Truman was worse than the Democratic Party led by FDR. When you have new leaders and new members, parties can change their ideology. The difference between you and me is that you think that the party's still a bunch of wolves hiding in sheep's clothing, whereas I think that they've transformed.


Baltenstein wrote:Speaking of the topic of downplaying Nazism, there are several European parties/movements who either downplay Nazism's crimes, outright deny them or in some case even glorify them. Most of these (with the sole exception of the Ukrainian ones) have increasingly amicable ties with the Russian government, up to the point of getting money from them and proudly proposing an alliance between Russia and their respective countries.
Irony much?


And that's wrong too, if that's actually the case. However, I can see why a nationalist party would be pro-Russian. Putin showed Europe how to run an economy without austerity, and that's as good a reason to be pro-Russian as any. Name a single party that glorifies Nazism, supports Russia and promotes austerity.


Banderia wrote:Bullshit. The February 21 event was not a coup. It was the people who wished more democracy and freedom after year long tyranny of Yanukovych. He killed thousands of his people on the Maidan and when he fled to Russia he beged Putin to launch a millitary campaign against the country he is supposedly representing. But than against the Muscowites propagandist and their media outlets is nobody taking seriously.


So a legitimately elected leader, fleeing the country for fear of his life, and later being impeached by a rump parliament, is not a coup? Also, source for Yanukovich begging Putin to launch a military campaign. No, drunk Poroshenko speeches don't count: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caE29gdmo-8


Banderia wrote:The education system is teaching them false history and to not tolerate different people.


Banderia wrote:But than against the Muscowites propagandist and their media outlets is nobody taking seriously.


Glad to see that the education system in your country is quite stellar. Does it detect sarcasm too?


Korva wrote:
Lytenburgh wrote:Now, a relly "hot" stuff. Several documents bearing signatures of both B. Obama and J. Kerry confirming that the US Army will supply counterbattery radars to the Ukraine. Poroshenko himself proudly mentioned that several times. And finally that'e happened! As many as three of said radars were supplied to embattled UkrArmy - for a "mere" 400 grand USDs. And that's without counting the numerous kickbacks and plain old corruption, that will enrich a lot of people both in Kiev and Washington.

That is not controversial or covert. If the Cyber Berkut fakes are for once real, then it would actually be fairly cheap.

I understand however that the exchange from USD to Russian funny money might make ~130,000 dollars per unit seem exorbitant to some.


You are aware that the Ruble made recent gains against the Dollar, right? The reason that the Ruble lost as much value as it did, was because the Russian banks aren't as experienced as US banks, and they didn't timely float the Ruble. Once they did, the value of the Ruble slightly increased. While the error is egregious, what's even more egregious is claiming that 130,000 would equate with 1 US Dollar. Furthermore, exchange rates can be confusing, and mean little, unless you're looking at comparative trends, which you, let's face it, aren't. Otherwise you would've seen the chart and known that the jocular number is 120, not 130,000.

Let's compare as value against the dollar, so increase bad, decrease good, like golf: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... UB&view=1Y and http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from= ... AH&view=1Y

Hryvna: 8.9 on Feb 21st, (when there was no coup and Yanukovich was magically teleported to Russia via the Putin beam...)
Hryvna today: 15.0.
Loss: 68.5%

Ruble: 35.6 on Feb 21st
Ruble today: 46.2
Loss: 30%

My sarcastic apologies for pointing out the facts.
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Constantinopolis
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Postby Constantinopolis » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:39 pm

Banderia wrote:Bullshit. The February 21 event was not a coup. It was the people who wished more democracy and freedom after year long tyranny of Yanukovych.

Tell me something: Is the current situation in Ukraine IN ANY WAY better than the situation in September-October 2013 (before Euromaidan began)? Or is it, in fact, far worse? Are people's lives better today than they were under Yanukovych? Or are they, in fact, far worse?

It is blatantly obvious that Euromaidan and the events resulting from it utterly ruined the country. Even leaving aside the war, let's not forget that the Ukrainian economy is collapsing. The people of Ukraine will be suffering for years as a direct result of this "European choice".

I'm going to make a prediction now, and if I turn out to be wrong I will eat my hat publicly admit my error on NSG:

Life in Ukraine under pro-Western rulers will always be worse than under pro-Russian rulers. Things will NEVER improve under pro-Western governments. The EU and US will only impose austerity and neoliberalism, causing inequality and poverty. And Ukraine will never actually join the EU. If you think that the West promotes democracy or prosperity outside of its own borders, you are wrong. They are in it for themselves, same as everyone else. Expect no saviours from outside, expect no free help from anyone. "European Ukraine" will resemble India under British rule more than it will resemble Western Europe itself.

I know you don't believe me now, but remember my words, and maybe in 5 or 10 years you will believe me. Just wait and see.
Last edited by Constantinopolis on Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:47 pm

The Ukrainian economy was always a basket case before this. It would have remained a basket case, even if Yanukovych had remained in power. Either choice would have meant the continuation of the status quo irrespective of who was in power or what happened after Euromaidan.

Let's make a Matrix analogy here. Ukraine has a choice between the Blue Pill (EU) or the Red Pill (Russia). Both have their pros and cons. The crucial point though, is that both are placebos and do not result in a magical cure for Ukraine's economic problems.

So, in short, this whole notion that somehow, choosing the Russian deal was better than going with the EU is a load of horse shit (because bullshit is, apparently, causing global warming).
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Constantinopolis
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Postby Constantinopolis » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:58 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:The Ukrainian economy was always a basket case before this. It would have remained a basket case, even if Yanukovych had remained in power. Either choice would have meant the continuation of the status quo irrespective of who was in power or what happened after Euromaidan.

No. Yanukovych would have meant the continuation of the status quo. Euromaidan resulted in something much worse: economic collapse. Ukraine's economy is predicted to shrink by 3-10% this year. The proposed "solution" to this problem is an IMF loan... and we all know how much fun those are.

Costa Fierro wrote:Let's make a Matrix analogy here. Ukraine has a choice between the Blue Pill (EU) or the Red Pill (Russia). Both have their pros and cons. The crucial point though, is that both are placebos and do not result in a magical cure for Ukraine's economic problems.

So, in short, this whole notion that somehow, choosing the Russian deal was better than going with the EU is a load of horse shit (because bullshit is, apparently, causing global warming).

Russia was offering to subsidize Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine's loyalty to Moscow.

The EU is offering austerity and IMF loans.

Neither of these options is great, and neither does anything to improve Ukraine's underlying problems, but one is distinctly better than the other.
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The balkens
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Ex-Nation

Postby The balkens » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:24 am

Constantinopolis wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:The Ukrainian economy was always a basket case before this. It would have remained a basket case, even if Yanukovych had remained in power. Either choice would have meant the continuation of the status quo irrespective of who was in power or what happened after Euromaidan.

No. Yanukovych would have meant the continuation of the status quo. Euromaidan resulted in something much worse: economic collapse. Ukraine's economy is predicted to shrink by 3-10% this year. The proposed "solution" to this problem is an IMF loan... and we all know how much fun those are.

Costa Fierro wrote:Let's make a Matrix analogy here. Ukraine has a choice between the Blue Pill (EU) or the Red Pill (Russia). Both have their pros and cons. The crucial point though, is that both are placebos and do not result in a magical cure for Ukraine's economic problems.

So, in short, this whole notion that somehow, choosing the Russian deal was better than going with the EU is a load of horse shit (because bullshit is, apparently, causing global warming).

Russia was offering to subsidize Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine's loyalty to Moscow.

The EU is offering austerity and IMF loans.

Neither of these options is great, and neither does anything to improve Ukraine's underlying problems, but one is distinctly better than the other.


Independence but austerity or the Russian boot but money....

Hard choice.

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Constantinopolis
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Postby Constantinopolis » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:33 am

The balkens wrote:
Constantinopolis wrote:No. Yanukovych would have meant the continuation of the status quo. Euromaidan resulted in something much worse: economic collapse. Ukraine's economy is predicted to shrink by 3-10% this year. The proposed "solution" to this problem is an IMF loan... and we all know how much fun those are.


Russia was offering to subsidize Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine's loyalty to Moscow.

The EU is offering austerity and IMF loans.

Neither of these options is great, and neither does anything to improve Ukraine's underlying problems, but one is distinctly better than the other.

Independence but austerity or the Russian boot but money....

Hard choice.

Easy choice for me. "Independence" just means you get to be exploited by capitalists from your own ethnic group, as opposed to foreign ones. It's not worth much. So, unless you can get rid of both foreign and domestic exploiters and build a new and better society (which is, sadly, not an option in Ukraine right now), you should just go with whoever offers a better deal for workers and the poor.

No matter if they're from the same ethnic group as yourself or not.

Edit: I know that's a very non-Leninist position for me to take - Leninism actually emphasizes national self-determination a lot more - but I tend to stand with Rosa Luxemburg on the nationality question.
Last edited by Constantinopolis on Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Korva
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Founded: Apr 22, 2013
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Postby Korva » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:38 am

The separatists are now using child soldiers. Clearly there is no age too young to fight the gangsterism of the West.

In other news, Givi has not been heard from in a week and Motorola has wounded in more fighting at the airport. Seems like a tough time to be a tourist :(

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West Aurelia
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Postby West Aurelia » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:39 am

Korva wrote:The separatists are now using child soldiers. Clearly there is no age too young to fight the gangsterism of the West.


Is Planet Putin a reliable source? It provides some evidence, but I'm not 100% sure.
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The balkens
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Postby The balkens » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:50 am

Korva wrote:The separatists are now using child soldiers. Clearly there is no age too young to fight the gangsterism of the West.

In other news, Givi has not been heard from in a week and Motorola has wounded in more fighting at the airport. Seems like a tough time to be a tourist :(


Shit must be desperate for them.

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