Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Novus America]

Seems most of you guys missed the SS Lightning Bolts on the Stalheim.

Obviously there are Neo-Nazis and extremists in the Ukrainian para-military ranks. Obviously there are Neo-Nazis and extremists on the Separatist/Russian side as well. I think we have posted enough evidence that it cannot be disputed that there are Neo-Nazis on both sides. So how about we stop with the posting pictures of the other side with Neo-Nazi symbols, it does nothing but show what we already know, both sides make use of such symbols.

[United Marxist Nations]

Seems most of you guys missed the SS Lightning Bolts on the Stalheim.

Obviously there are Neo-Nazis and extremists in the Ukrainian para-military ranks. Obviously there are Neo-Nazis and extremists on the Separatist/Russian side as well. I think have posted enough evidence that it cannot be dispute that their are Neo-Nazis on both sides. So how about we stop with the posting pictures of the other side with Neo-Nazi symbols, it does nothing but show what we already know, both sides make use of such symbols.

I say we go back to this.

[The Batorys]

I knew their neo-Nazi undertones will be well met by you!

Modern infantry helmets such as the Advanced Combat Helmet and the PASGT which came before it, have been trending towards looking similar to the Stahlhelm because it is a helmet design that is very practical and works in protecting most of the skull. Hate anything Nazi inspired as you will, but the fact is that Germans were ahead of their time in some respects.

Also, I'd add to what you said, that the Stahlhelm's basic design was already in use in WWI, before there was any such thing as a Nazi.

So it's not a "Nazi helmet," no matter what some alarmists might think. It's a German helmet. And it's a very good design. Recent American infantry helmets have taken some influence from the Stahlhelm because it is an effective helmet design.

[The balkens]

Does everyone know that the OSCE observers were shot at?

Oh i can take a guess.

[Herargon]

Modern infantry helmets such as the Advanced Combat Helmet and the PASGT which came before it, have been trending towards looking similar to the Stahlhelm because it is a helmet design that is very practical and works in protecting most of the skull. Hate anything Nazi inspired as you will, but the fact is that Germans were ahead of their time in some respects.

Also, I'd add to what you said, that the Stahlhelm's basic design was already in use in WWI, before there was any such thing as a Nazi.

So it's not a "Nazi helmet," no matter what some alarmists might think. It's a German helmet. And it's a very good design. Recent American infantry helmets have taken some influence from the Stahlhelm because it is an effective helmet design.

He means the SS insignes on the helmet.

[Novus America]

I used to be neutral, until russia got involved and instigated it.

*Putin

As I've said previous times, blaming it on an inherent imperialistic Russian drive legitimizes the views of people like Lytenburgh who see criticism to these actions as representing Russophobic sentiment.

True, Putin is only trying to benefit himself, and he is hurting Russia in the process.

Unfortunately as we have also established the current Russian political climate leaves little room for moderation. This is not saying Russians are bad people. This is simply saying the current Russian political climate is highly toxic. There are logical historical reasons for this, considering Russia's recent tumultuous history. Putin is bad, but I see no credible, better alternatives. So we should not seek to see Putin fall, instead we need to contain Russia from further aggression so we can put the irredentist genie Putin unleashed back in its bottle, before we get a new World War. Russia is not giving up Crimea, so Crimea is really moot at this point. What is important now is keeping this new imperialism game Putin started from getting even more destructive and out of hand.

[Lanver]

Turns out no one respected that.

Exactly, and if they're not going to respect Ukraine's agreement, how do other nations know they'll respect theirs?

Europe didn't do anything because Europe is currently dependent on Russia through trade agreements.

Will the west abandon other allies out of fear of ruining their own economies because of trade relations?

If China goes after someone will the US just sit on the side lines out of fear of China crashing the economy?

NATO's reputation and the west's reputation has taken a large hit from this that will be hard to recover. Several Eastern European NATO members are demanding more troops and even long term bases.

Most likely it's because they want assurance that NATO is actually going to defend them.

I Respect the russians for having the balls to do what they are entitled to do due to the deal/pact they had with ukraine on trade and being part of the (russian sphere) when the USSR Crumbled.

In the agreement it clearly stated that russia could use force if needed if ukraine violated any of the terms of the agreement

[Estado Nacional]

Does everyone know that the OSCE observers were shot at?

I actually don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Lytenburgh]

Can you prove that the NatzGuard was a real Natzguard and not just some guy posing for a picture with a bunch of old WW2-esque gear?

If you are so into conspiracy thories (like "all images of innocent looking Ukrainian National Guardsmen are photoshoped by Kremlin bots") you are either:

1) Know nothing about National Guard battalions of the Ukraine.

2) Know nothing about "Svoboda" and "Right Sector", who supply a large number of volunteers for said battalions.

3) Know nothing about the current Ukraine, where such images are pretty much commonplace (Google-fu will help you):

[Lytenburgh]

From Russian language Esquire, during the 2007 Dissenters' March.

You want to be taken seriously? Then post link with real proofs.

[The balkens]

From Russian language Esquire, during the 2007 Dissenters' March.

You want to be taken seriously? Then post link with real proofs.

same could be said for you.

[Lytenburgh]

True, Putin is only trying to benefit himself, and he is hurting Russia in the process.

Then how do you explain that citizens of Russia now are living better under "self-serving" Putin then under "democrat and friend of the West" Yeltsin?

Unfortunately as we have also established the current Russian political climate leaves little room for moderation. This is not saying Russians are bad people.

Thank you very much! Only neither Russia nor Russians need your condescending.

So we should not seek to see Putin fall, instead we need to contain Russia from further aggression so we can put the irredentist genie Putin unleashed back in its bottle, before we get a new World War.

Western supported (and - partially - sponsored) topples legitimate Ukrainian president. New government is unashamedly pro-Western - and it is Russia who is accused of "aggressiveness" and "irredentism"?

What about comanders of 3 volunteer battalions, Semenchenko, Tatarchuk and Bereza, going to senator McCain to ask more money and weapons?

Who wants to bet, that none other then Mr. McCain will enter Weapons Comittee (or how do you call this thing that "legally" supplies "freedom-fighters" with American grade weapons) in 2015?

Russia is not giving up Crimea, so Crimea is really moot at this point. What is important now is keeping this new imperialism game Putin started from getting even more destructive and out of hand.

And what about Novorossiyan Republics, who, after nearly 6 months of constant bombardment don't want to be a part of the Ukraine?

[Novus America]

You want to be taken seriously? Then post link with real proofs.

same could be said for you.

Both sides use Nazi symbols. So this back in forth thing accomplishes nothing. I could post hundreds of pictures of Ukrainians with Neo-Nazi Symbols, and hundreds of Separatists/Russians with Neo-Nazi symbols. I am saying this to you because I know you are reasonable. I doubt Lytenburgh is going to stop spamming this tread with "Ukrainians are Nazis", so there is little we can do but just ignore the spam.

[Lytenburgh]

You want to be taken seriously? Then post link with real proofs.

same could be said for you.

About what? Or are you going to repeat "la-la-la - don't want to hear you!" of all pro-Ukrainian denialists, that there is no such possibility as pro-Nazi battalion?

[The balkens]

same could be said for you.

About what? Or are you going to repeat "la-la-la - don't want to hear you!" of all pro-Ukrainian denialists, that there is no such possibility as pro-Nazi battalion?

"You want to be taken seriously? Then post link with real proofs"


This post that is full to the rim with bullshit.

[Korva]

From Russian language Esquire, during the 2007 Dissenters' March.

You want to be taken seriously? Then post link with real proofs.

I gave you the source as well as an article providing corroborating evidence.

Of course it is probably decadent Western propaganda, you can't trust anything outside of RT these days.

[Novus America]

True, Putin is only trying to benefit himself, and he is hurting Russia in the process.

Then how do you explain that citizens of Russia now are living better under "self-serving" Putin then under "democrat and friend of the West" Yeltsin?

Unfortunately as we have also established the current Russian political climate leaves little room for moderation. This is not saying Russians are bad people.

Thank you very much! Only neither Russia nor Russians need your condenscending.

So we should not seek to see Putin fall, instead we need to contain Russia from further aggression so we can put the irredentist genie Putin unleashed back in its bottle, before we get a new World War.

Western supported (and - partially - sponsored) topples legitimate Ukrainian president. New government is unashamedly pro-Western - and it is Russia who is accused of "aggressiveness" and "irredentism"?

What about comanders of 3 volunteer battalions, Semenchenko, Tatarchuk and Bereza, going to senator McCain to ask more money and weapons?

Who wants to bet, that none other then Mr. McCain will enter Weapons Comeetee (or how do you call this thing that "legally" supplies "freedom-fighters" with American grade weapons) in 2015?

Russia is not giving up Crimea, so Crimea is really moot at this point. What is important now is keeping this new imperialism game Putin started from getting even more destructive and out of hand.

And what about Novorossiyan Republics, who, after nearly 6 months of constant bombardment don't want to be a part of the Ukraine?

I see little point in arguing since we know where you stand, and you will automatically disregard any evidence that disagrees with you.

Please note Yeltsin too was a corrupt and self serving leader. And Yelstin was the one who appointed Putin in the first place. Yelstin and Putin are not so different as you like to believe. Putin was just lucky he had the commodities boom to ride.

Just because a country puts into power a government you do not like is not excuse for invasion. Ukraine never attacked Russia. Ukraine has a right to buy weapons form the US. By your "logic" the US should invade and annex Nicaragua and Cuba. But again what is the point in discussing? In your signature you want Ukraine annexed to Russia. You do not believe Ukraine is a sovereign country. If everybody believed what you do there would be a WWIII. What about the Chinese who want to reclaim Vladivostok (they call it Hǎishēnwǎi)? Irredentism only causes war.

But anyway this conflict is helping no one put Putin. How are the people of the Donbass benefiting? Their economy is destroyed, and they are being ruled by violent warlords.

But what this really comes down to like I said is nipping irredentism in the bud. We cannot allow the conditions that gave rise to WWI and WWII to arise again. If a bigger war does happen Russia will suffer terribly. Millions of Russians could die.

[Lytenburgh]

I gave you the source as well as an article providing corroborating evidence.

Of course it is probably decadent Western propaganda, you can't trust anything outside of RT these days.

No. You only gave me 7 year old article (from an obscure site to boot). No confirmation or proof of what I've asked for.

I see little point in arguing since we know where you stand, and you will automatically disregard any evidence that disagrees with you.

Try. I may surprise you. Granted, if you provide a real arguments proofs and not demand me to "take your word for it"

Please note Yeltsin too was a corrupt and self serving leader. And Yelstin was the one who appointed Putin in the first place. Yelstin and Putin are not so different as you like to believe. Putin was just lucky he had the commodities boom to ride.

Wrong. Yeltsin willingly surrendred every single one instance when Russian international postition was at stake. He and his "family" of close advisers, relatives and oligarchs really controlled all sources of income for Russia - a situation no dissimilar for today's Ukraine. Should he or someone as pro-oligarch oriented as him stayed in power after 1999 Russia and Russians won't see what they've seen under Putin's economy policy. Would you like to re-read this? If, as some Westerners here describe him, Putin was a self-serving egomaniacal new-wave oligarch, then why people under him final live like humans?

Just because a country puts into power a government you do not like is not excuse for invasion. Ukraine never attacked Russia. Ukraine has a right to buy weapons form the US. By your "logic" the US should invade and annex Nicaragua and Cuba. But again what is the point in discussing? In your signature you want Ukraine annexed to Russia. You do not believe Ukraine is a sovereign country. If everybody believed what you do there would be a WWIII. What about the Chinese who want to reclaim Vladivostok (they call it Hǎishēnwǎi)? Irredentism only causes war.

I take it that you are 100% with overthrow of government - granted, if it is done in America's best interests. N'est pas? Yes, Ukraine never attacked Russsia. But Russia also never "attacked" the Ukraine - Russia only returned what was hers - Crimea - with local population's support. More than 6 months since then and I still fail to see masses of Crimeans crying for re-union with the Ukraine.

What new Ukrainian government (illegally installed, by the way) have done was the invasion ("attack", if you like) of self proclaimed People Republic's of Donetsk and Lugansk, which had the same rights for what they've done as the illegally installed new Kievan government.

Ukraine can buy weapons from US. But on what? Ukraine is approaching bankruptcy and default with each passing day. I really hope you won't argue that. All money that Ukraine has right now are credit money provided either by IMF (on a certain very strict conditions) of from the EU countries (ditto). Something tells me, that nowhere in these conditions there is such clause as "Spending m(b)illions of our money on American arms and ammo, spare parts, instructors and stuff, when we said precisely that we want you to spend these money on saving your country from impending economic collapse."

Yeah, go ahead - send UkrArmy and punitive battalions of NatzGuard crates full of M16, "Stingers" and shit. As I have told previously (too many times to reiterate) - this wont "save" the Ukraine. This brand new "import" stuff will be stolen and resold as are stolen and resold everything in the super corrupt Ukrainian army. These new "toys" won't transform poor ukrainian conscripts into Johns Rambo - they will die and run away just as they've done without this "land-lease".

Realistically speaking - Ukraine (and its Western backers) must understand that they need peace with Novorossiya. Not attempts to bully Russia into "playing by the rules", but a real recognition of reality - that there are currently swathes of former Ukrainian territories that don't want to be part of that country. If the people (common people, slighted by Euromaydan "revolution", oligarch power and deaths of their relatives and friend in the so called "ATO) didn't supported the idea of Novorossiya no amount of Kremlin money/PR/other skullduggery would create a real Rebellion against Kiev, that is still alive to this day.

The West must abandon its crusade to "punish" Russia into submission - it won't work. They must honestly tell themselves that current Ukrainian "влада" is only superficially different from the previous... that this is not a true democracy. And, to prove that you are such "morally suerior ubermenchen", try to use your "oh-so-soft" power to force much needed political and economic reforms in the Ukraine - not sponsor (and earn your dough in) another war.

But anyway this conflict is helping no one put Putin. How are the people of the Donbass benefiting? Their economy is destroyed, and they are being ruled by violent warlords.

But what this really comes down to like I said is nipping irredentism in the bud. We cannot allow the conditions that gave rise to WWI and WWII to arise again. If a bigger war does happen Russia will suffer terribly. Millions of Russians could die.

People of Novorossiya are alive - and they are grateful to Putin and Russian volunteers for that. You call it "rise of irredentism". I call it - the total revision of USA and its sattelites dominated world order.

As for naysayers liking to link some nonsensical articles about Russia's economy's "soon and impending doom" I have only this to say. In early autumn of 1941 both Axis and so-called "Western Democracies" were also "oh-so-sure" of the Soviet Union's sure and guaranteed fall and capitulation...

... It appears, that gloating and nay saying are Olympic (para?) disciplines of all true "friends and partners" of Russian and Russian people.

P.S.

Passport-cover for DPR:

[The balkens]

And the Russian economy keeps on falling.
Hope you enjoy watching people getting soup out of a bus, Russian Apologists.

[Lytenburgh]

And the Russian economy keeps on falling.
Hope you enjoy watching people getting soup out of a bus, Russian Apologists.

I live (and criss-cross daily) in Moscow. I've yet to see "the Great Depression"-style pictures on the streets. But if you balk (or State Dept of th USA) has proof for that - give us them!

[The balkens]

And the Russian economy keeps on falling.
Hope you enjoy watching people getting soup out of a bus, Russian Apologists.

I live (and criss-cross daily) in Moscow. I've yet to see "the Great Depression"-style pictures on the streets. But if you balk (or State Dept of th USA) has proof for that - give us them!

For you, Lyt, (Foreign inteligence service.)

Perhaps if you look outside the oh-so-great capital and look towards ST. Petersburg.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v ... s.cnn.html

This is going to get worse and worse. when the Russian Communist Party gets sick of this travesty which you bitch and moan about not being real, ill be cheering them as people get sick and tired of the man you adore.

[Lytenburgh]

I live (and criss-cross daily) in Moscow. I've yet to see "the Great Depression"-style pictures on the streets. But if you balk (or State Dept of th USA) has proof for that - give us them!

For you, Lyt, (Foreign inteligence service.)

Perhaps if you look outside the oh-so-great capital and look towards ST. Petersburg.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v ... s.cnn.html

This is going to get worse and worse. when the Russian Communist Party gets sick of this travesty which you bitch and moan about not being real, ill be cheering them as people get sick and tired of the man you adore.

Have you actually watched this "video"? You know what it reminds me? An old Soviet anecdote:

Soviet TV-jounrnalist on the streets of New York. So, on camera he asks some American (in English)-
"What is your name?"
"John".
"So you can see, comrades", - continues this journo in Russian, - "his name is John, he was unemployed for three days and did not eat anything."

The same is with this "CNN" reporting. No one is telling that they've lost their work thanks to "Putin" or "Sanctions" - this is just "creative translation" by the "Free and Idependent Western Media".

Are there any homeless people in Russia? Yeah, sure - as in any other country in the world. The fact that some people are actually helping them put is good, encouraging sign. But lying blatntly is just damagins alrady less then perfect "imidge" of the West in Russia.

Try again!

[The balkens]

Ah, a perfect Lyt response.

Laugh at the source, question the western source. Pretend to give a shit about them. Oh how typical.

But they live in Russia, why would you care? But the people of Donetsk need help! not the poor, or the homeless of your countrymen.

Glory to Mother Russia, where being Russian outside of Russia is better then living in Russia Itself.

[Lytenburgh]

Ah, a perfect Lyt response.

Laugh at the source, question the western source. Pretend to give a shit about them. Oh how typical.

But they live in Russia, why would you care? But the people of Donetsk need help! not the poor, or the homeless of your countrymen.

Glory to Mother Russia, where being Russian outside of Russia is better then living in Russia Itself.

I'm Russian living inside of Russia. Please - stahp bullshiting and quoting just trendy quotes here.
You can actually help people of Novorossiya (as American) by protesting you country's support of criminal punitive actions of Poroshenko's regime.

By the way - as a person who, you know, actually knows Russian, I can tell when CNN journos are fucking adding entire sentences in their "correct translation". Just trecently kosher Westerners brushed away my photos from Slovakian anti-Poroshneko rallies 'cause "there were too few people here". Well, following you logic - half-a-dozen random people from (allegedly) Saint-Pete are no indication of soon and impendig doom.

[The balkens]

Ah, a perfect Lyt response.

Laugh at the source, question the western source. Pretend to give a shit about them. Oh how typical.

But they live in Russia, why would you care? But the people of Donetsk need help! not the poor, or the homeless of your countrymen.

Glory to Mother Russia, where being Russian outside of Russia is better then living in Russia Itself.

I'm Russian living inside of Russia. Please - stahp bullshiting and quoting just trendy quotes here.
You can actually help people of Novorossiya (as American) by protesting you country's support of criminal punitive actions of Poroshenko's regime.

And help out the Russian Government in its goals for that? Fuck that.

Why would i support a fucking criminal like Putin, who is responible for this fucking mess. why the fuck would i suddenly find myself on the same side as you IN ANY DEBATE!?

I'd rather be caught as a gay person in Russia then that shit.

Death with dignity.