NATION

PASSWORD

Self-ownership

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you own yourself, NSG?

Yes, and for the reasons you gave.
65
22%
Yes, but for reasons different to the ones you gave.
117
39%
No, because I belong to God.
61
20%
No (please give a reason below).
56
19%
 
Total votes : 299

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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:01 pm

Arkolon wrote:i. The person is made from the functional body.
ii. Without the functional body, there is no person.
iii. The functional body belongs to the person.
1. The person owns their body.

iii. and 1 seem like restatements of the same claim ("person owns body") - "owns" and "belongs" are the same thing (only in the active and passive tense respectively). You've asserted a property relationship between the person and body without justifying it. The logic is circular/begging the question ("I own my body because my body belongs to me"/"My body belongs to me because I own myself"), but there isn't an axiomatic justification for why this is true. It's just an assertion.

I still believe in self-ownership, but for different reasons. I accept the principle of communicative action (which is a matter for another thread) - in short, that discourse is an active, participatory behavior, and that there is an architecture to logic in which the act of discourse forms a constitutive part. Our action communicates certain truths that cannot be denied, because argumentation (the discursive act of denying these truths) relies on their presupposition, as per the example "language has no meaning" (in which my communicative act of using language has presupposed our mutual acceptance of the intersubjective meaning of language).

For reasons of a long, deductive chain of Hoppean ethics that I can post if we want, I think claims to ownership are logically inevitable - that is, "property" has to exist (even in a "socialist" utopia, the scarce nature of things means that their use is limited, and therefore they will be owned, at least in a temporary sense, through exclusive use. Even if everyone shares everything, two people can't eat the same unit of cake, which means someone will end up owning that slice of cake to the loss of the other). The only question is which claims of ownership are justified.

I don't think slavery-norms (someone else owning another person's body) could possibly be justified, because we are all rational agents, and any theoretical justification for this norm would rely upon our use of agency to directly contravene this principle. For example, if I were to say "I own my body", this is a proposition that is not substantively contradicted by the form of my statement - if, in reality, I do own my body, then the act of making the argument that I own my body can theoretically be justified. If, on the contrary, I were to say that "Person X owns my body", then the substance of the argument would contradict the form, because my action in discourse of claiming my body relied upon the exclusive use of my body by my own agency - if I did not own my body, I would not be justified in this action absent Person X's ownership of my body. If I were to claim that "Everyone own's everyone's body [that is, some shared division of each body amongst a collective]", I would also be in contradiction of this principle, because I would need the collective permission of everyone else in order to act. However, because everyone else would require collective permission in order to act to grant collective permission, this norm could not possibly be sustained, because no communication could ever take place (because no action - including the action of discourse - could ever be justified absent prior permission, but this prior permission too would, as action, require prior permission, into infinite regression of non-action).

Now, particular slave relationships are another problem, and I am personally not sure whether or not they can be justified. Each individual is the first owner of his body (that is, I have the most justified claim to my body because my agency was originally tied to my body and manifested through it - I originally appropriated my body). But I am personally not sure whether or not I could voluntarily become the slave of someone else - if, for example, I were to sign a contract stating that "Person X owns my body from this point onward", is this contract justified? Under most circumstances, ceding ownership of a good onto someone else is completely justified, but, here, I am ceding "exclusive use" (ownership) of a good (my body) onto someone else, even though the nature of that good excludes others from its direct use. Absent some sort of mind control, my own agency is intimately tied with the use of that good - person X could never exclude me from use of my own body. This ethical principle (that my own claims to my body are unjust and that someone else's claims are just) is unsustainable, because it contradicts the principles presupposed in justification. I would have to become a non-rational, non-thinking, non-justifying, non-moral non-agent (like an ox) in order for this ownership relation to be justified.

So it seems as though, within argumentation ethics, slavery is the only contractual, property relationship over a physical object (the body) that could never be justified. Other 'property relationships' over intangible ideas (who owns "a triangle"?) are also unjust according to argumentation ethics, but for slightly different reasons (these goods are non-exclusionary, but are also non-scarce, both of which mean that they cannot be 'owned' as property... the body is scarce, but the nature of its exclusion is intimately tied to its controlling agent, which means slavery can never be totally exclusionary).

So, ultimately, I think self-ownership is undeniable and unavoidable. Any alternative to self-ownership is self-contradictory and immoral.
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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:11 pm

Augarundus wrote:[...]two people can't eat the same unit of cake, which means someone will end up owning that slice of cake to the loss of the other[...]

Physical possession is not equal to propertarian ownership
Just because I physically possess a unit of cake doesn't mean I own it in a propertarian sense. For example, the cake could be stolen.

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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:12 pm

Arkolon wrote:If you own yourself, you can sell yourself. It's an asset like any other, and you could be compelled to sell yourself into slavery to settle outstanding debts.

Slavery is legitimate as long as it is 100% voluntary. It would be irrational, but not ethically illegitimate, to sell oneself voluntarily into slavery.

Fellow voluntarist here, see my above post in response. I don't think you're a Hoppean (I might be wrong), so I'd be interested in seeing what your justification for property rights is and how it interacts with voluntary slavery. Where Hoppeanism is concerned, justness and rationality are equivalent ("morality" is the question of whether or not an act is rationally justifiable, or whether it contradicts rational justification, and is therefore unjust and inconsistent with the behavior of a rational agent). I have made the case that slavery norms are always unjust because they always contradict our rational agency. It is not a question of whether or not this is 'voluntary', because the simple act of 'volunteering' for participation in slavery is contradictory (we cannot separate one's agency from ownership of one's body).

Also, I can think of scenarios where an individual would possess a rational incentive to sell himself to slavery (for clarification, I think it is possible to exchange the rights of use of one's body, but not to exchange exclusive control of one's body. We can rationally accede to the voluntary exchange of selling our labor, or of consensual sex, but this is an act of will in which we are still rational agents who own ourselves; we have just made our body non-exclusive in some temporarily contingent sense, but we nonetheless own our body). A parent may wish to pay for his/her child's surgery, but can only do so by selling himself into slavery, for example.

The person can justly sell the use of his body (he can labor for a master who is justly entitled to such and such 'product' that this man has promised, in the same way that a creditor may be entitled to such an such wealth that you've yet to produce in payment for a loan), but he cannot sell his body. He may have incentives to do so, but the contract could not be logically justified (because, as above, its substance contradicts the form of justification itself - it is a meaningless ownership relation), so it is immoral (inconsistent with rational agency). This leads me to believe that we are using the terms "rational" in different senses (where I mean "consistent with the logical architecture of 'human rationality' - of argumentation, analytical reasoning, etc.", and you mean "incentives to act").
Last edited by Augarundus on Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:19 pm

Conscentia wrote:
Augarundus wrote:[...]two people can't eat the same unit of cake, which means someone will end up owning that slice of cake to the loss of the other[...]

Physical possession is not equal to propertarian ownership
Just because I physically possess a unit of cake doesn't mean I own it in a propertarian sense. For example, the cake could be stolen.

They are equivalent in argumentation ethics. Ownership relations may be just or unjust, but possession and ownership are identical in a functional sense. When Hoppe or van Dunn use terms like "ownership" or "possession", they refer to the exclusive use of an object. This exclusive use is inevitable - in any society, so long as a resource is scarce, someone will possess it to the exclusion of another agent. The question of argumentation ethics is how disputes over exclusive use may be resolved in a way consistent with logical justification. I suppose we can separate the term "ownership" as "justified exclusive use" (whose possession of the object is just?), but it doesn't really matter. This is a semantic distinction, not an argument.

i. Person A possesses his body.
ii. For anyone else to possess his body is unjust (impossible via inconsistency with justification).
iii. Therefore, A's possession of his body is justified.

If we redefine ownership to mean justified possession, it doesn't change the syllogism at all.

i. Person A possesses his body.
ii. For anyone else to possess his body is unjust (impossible via inconsistency with justification).
iii. Therefore, A owns his body.
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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:31 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Conscentia wrote:Physical possession is not equal to propertarian ownership
Just because I physically possess a unit of cake doesn't mean I own it in a propertarian sense. For example, the cake could be stolen.

They are equivalent in argumentation ethics. [...]

Property pertains to legal philosophy, not ethics.

I suspect the entire idea of trying to shove property into ethics was developed by people just trying to justify their socio-economic ideology as ethically superior, which is just dishonest.

Augarundus wrote:[...] i. Person A possesses his body.
ii. For anyone else to possess his body is unjust (impossible via inconsistency with justification).
iii. Therefore, A owns his body.

III doesn't follow on from II.
Just because you say it's unjust for others to physically possess A's body doesn't mean that A owns his body. It'd only mean that an injustice has occurred if A does not physically possess "his" body (though biologically speaking, that's not a possible scenario). Propertarian relationships don't come into it at all.
Last edited by Conscentia on Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:32 pm

Just a sec guys.

Slavery is legitimate as long as it is 100% voluntary.


I'm sorry, what?

Slavery, by definition, is involuntary. It is incompatible with voluntarism. To "sell" yourself into "slavery" is impossible, because the point of selling makes a contract on both ends, and assumes that contract can be broken at any time. At the most you can sell yourself as an indentured servant, but never as a slave.
Last edited by The Liberated Territories on Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Twilight Imperium
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Postby Twilight Imperium » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:41 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:Just a sec guys.

Slavery is legitimate as long as it is 100% voluntary.


I'm sorry, what?

Slavery, by definition, is involuntary. It is incompatible with voluntarism. To "sell" yourself into "slavery" is impossible, because the point of selling makes a contract on both ends, and assumes that contract can be broken at any time. At the most you can sell yourself as an indentured servant, but never as a slave.


slave, noun \ˈslāv\

1 : someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay

2 : a person who is strongly influenced and controlled by something

Just because all slavery in the past has been involuntary and will likely continue to be, doesn't mean it has to be in a theoretical sense :p

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Augarundus
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Postby Augarundus » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:43 pm

Twilight Imperium wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:Just a sec guys.



I'm sorry, what?

Slavery, by definition, is involuntary. It is incompatible with voluntarism. To "sell" yourself into "slavery" is impossible, because the point of selling makes a contract on both ends, and assumes that contract can be broken at any time. At the most you can sell yourself as an indentured servant, but never as a slave.


slave, noun \ˈslāv\

1 : someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay

2 : a person who is strongly influenced and controlled by something

Just because all slavery in the past has been involuntary and will likely continue to be, doesn't mean it has to be in a theoretical sense :p

I've responded to this already. Yes, slavery is theoretically impossible to justify.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:56 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Twilight Imperium wrote:
slave, noun \ˈslāv\

1 : someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay

2 : a person who is strongly influenced and controlled by something

Just because all slavery in the past has been involuntary and will likely continue to be, doesn't mean it has to be in a theoretical sense :p

I've responded to this already. Yes, slavery is theoretically impossible to justify.


Ah, I didn't see that you repudiated it afterwards.

----

Otherwise, a slave cannot own property; he cannot sell off his labour to someone else, because his actions (as a slave) are not his own. I am sure there are other words to describe it, but slavery is not one of them, and is a rather loaded term that more or less relates (and bastardizes, mind you) actual slaves. The positive "wrong" of slavery negates the negative right of self ownership. If we assume that everyone has the right of self ownership, then they cannot sell themselves into slavery, as that would be a contradiction and repudiation of the concept of self ownership in the first place.

@Ark
Last edited by The Liberated Territories on Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:57 pm

Conscentia wrote:
Arkolon wrote:Seeing as demand and scarcity are the two factors that create value (and all matter is scarce), I can objectively say that something that has any demand at all is valuable. Life, which is scarce and is in demand by its owner as long as it remains life, has a value objectively greater than zero. It doesn't matter what the exact value is. All that matters is that it is greater than zero, and thus valuable.

It has subjective value to those that demand it, yes, but not intrinsically valuable.
Life has no intrinsic value.

If value is subjective, and there is demand (and we are sure of this), then life has value. Demand creates value, and you said yourself that demand exists (and is therefore greater than 0), thus giving life value objectively greater than 0. If life has all the characteristics needed to have value (scarcity, demand), how can you say it is valueless?

And life in a universe without life has no value because there is no life. Only life can give itself, its counterparts, or anything else, value, so a universe without life is a universe without value.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:59 pm

Conscentia wrote:
Arkolon wrote:Having acquired the fruit and fish in accordance with the principle of justice in acquisition of holdings (nobody owned it before me, I worked for it, and there is enough and in good enough condition for others-- the Lockean proviso), the fruit and fish needn't have ever been mine for my acquisition over it to be legitimate.

Your reasoning is circular.
Your little scenario was meant to demonstrate how the principle is just, and just now you explained that your acquisition was just because of the principle.
ie. The principle of justice is just because of the principle of justice, which is just because of the principle of justice, which is just...

The principle of justice is just because individuals have rights independent of their governing body, which is backed by none other than self-ownership itself. This isn't circular because I was not justifying self-ownership in the desert-island scenario.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:00 pm

erc, I am not a Hoppean though. I feel like slavery is a bigger contradiction to the NAP than anarchocapitalism.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:03 pm

Sociobiology wrote:
Arkolon wrote:You did ask me to do it, and I don't see the reason for that.

Haven't we already gone through this? Life is scarce and there is demand greater than 0 for it: therefore its value has to be, objectively, greater than 0.

except demand is subjective therefore so is value based on it.
the intrinsic and objective demand for life is zero.

If there is life, then the demand for life is superior to zero. The supply of life creates its own demand, much like supply creates its own demand in general.

also we don't know how scarce life is, it may not be scarce at all.

Which religion do you have to be to immortalise yourself, again?
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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:04 pm

Arkolon wrote:
Conscentia wrote:Your reasoning is circular.
Your little scenario was meant to demonstrate how the principle is just, and just now you explained that your acquisition was just because of the principle.
ie. The principle of justice is just because of the principle of justice, which is just because of the principle of justice, which is just...

The principle of justice is just because individuals have rights independent of their governing body, which is backed by none other than self-ownership itself. This isn't circular because I was not justifying self-ownership in the desert-island scenario.

Except you were justifying self-ownership using the principle, so the argument is still a circle - it's just got a bigger circumference.

You've tried doing bad maths and circular arguments, how about you try something else?
Last edited by Conscentia on Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:08 pm

Arkolon wrote:
Conscentia wrote:It has subjective value to those that demand it, yes, but not intrinsically valuable.
Life has no intrinsic value.

If value is subjective, and there is demand (and we are sure of this), then life has value. Demand creates value, and you said yourself that demand exists (and is therefore greater than 0), thus giving life value objectively greater than 0. If life has all the characteristics needed to have value (scarcity, demand), how can you say it is valueless?

And life in a universe without life has no value because there is no life. Only life can give itself, its counterparts, or anything else, value, so a universe without life is a universe without value.

I didn't say valueless. I said it has no intrinsic value.
And you have everything backwards. Value creates demand, not the other way around. If I value something, then I am led to demand it. Demand is derived of value.
The value life has is subjective, not intrinsic.
Last edited by Conscentia on Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:11 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Arkolon wrote:i. The person is made from the functional body.
ii. Without the functional body, there is no person.
iii. The functional body belongs to the person.
1. The person owns their body.

iii. and 1 seem like restatements of the same claim ("person owns body") - "owns" and "belongs" are the same thing (only in the active and passive tense respectively). You've asserted a property relationship between the person and body without justifying it. The logic is circular/begging the question ("I own my body because my body belongs to me"/"My body belongs to me because I own myself"), but there isn't an axiomatic justification for why this is true. It's just an assertion.

The odd writing style, from a Roman numeral 3 to our conventional 1, has history in the now-dead Anarchism thread, from which spawned the threadjack regarding self-ownership. I claimed that 1., self-ownership is true, but this was taken axiomatically and was not properly proved. So I added before it three other axioms that build up to make 1. The fact that iii. and 1. are restatements of one another means I did what I was supposed to do.
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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:11 pm

Arkolon wrote:
Sociobiology wrote:except demand is subjective therefore so is value based on it.
the intrinsic and objective demand for life is zero.

If there is life, then the demand for life is superior to zero. The supply of life creates its own demand, much like supply creates its own demand in general.
[...]

You keep conflating subjective value with intrinsic value, when they are not at all the same. Stop it.

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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:13 pm

Augarundus wrote:
Slavery is legitimate as long as it is 100% voluntary. It would be irrational, but not ethically illegitimate, to sell oneself voluntarily into slavery.

Fellow voluntarist here, see my above post in response. I don't think you're a Hoppean (I might be wrong), so I'd be interested in seeing what your justification for property rights is and how it interacts with voluntary slavery. Where Hoppeanism is concerned, justness and rationality are equivalent ("morality" is the question of whether or not an act is rationally justifiable, or whether it contradicts rational justification, and is therefore unjust and inconsistent with the behavior of a rational agent). I have made the case that slavery norms are always unjust because they always contradict our rational agency. It is not a question of whether or not this is 'voluntary', because the simple act of 'volunteering' for participation in slavery is contradictory (we cannot separate one's agency from ownership of one's body).

Also, I can think of scenarios where an individual would possess a rational incentive to sell himself to slavery (for clarification, I think it is possible to exchange the rights of use of one's body, but not to exchange exclusive control of one's body. We can rationally accede to the voluntary exchange of selling our labor, or of consensual sex, but this is an act of will in which we are still rational agents who own ourselves; we have just made our body non-exclusive in some temporarily contingent sense, but we nonetheless own our body). A parent may wish to pay for his/her child's surgery, but can only do so by selling himself into slavery, for example.

The person can justly sell the use of his body (he can labor for a master who is justly entitled to such and such 'product' that this man has promised, in the same way that a creditor may be entitled to such an such wealth that you've yet to produce in payment for a loan), but he cannot sell his body. He may have incentives to do so, but the contract could not be logically justified (because, as above, its substance contradicts the form of justification itself - it is a meaningless ownership relation), so it is immoral (inconsistent with rational agency). This leads me to believe that we are using the terms "rational" in different senses (where I mean "consistent with the logical architecture of 'human rationality' - of argumentation, analytical reasoning, etc.", and you mean "incentives to act").

Sorry to render your post a waste of time, but I did eventually abandon the idea that slavery could be justified a couple dozen pages after I posted what you quoted, on the basis that being conscious means that you own yourself, so by not owning yourself you must be unconscious or functionally dead.
Last edited by Arkolon on Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:16 pm

Arkolon wrote:[...] being conscious means that you own yourself, [...]

It does not. It just means that your body is capable of the higher level neural function necessary to allow you to have the experience of possessing a body.

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Silicon-Labs Corporation
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Postby Silicon-Labs Corporation » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:17 pm

Simply put, I own myself because

a. No large power of govournment claims ownership of me (Aka im not a slave)
b. There is no other mind or brain inside of me that claims ownership

tl;dr nobody else says they own me but me

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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:22 pm

Conscentia wrote:
Arkolon wrote:If there is life, then the demand for life is superior to zero. The supply of life creates its own demand, much like supply creates its own demand in general.
[...]

You keep conflating subjective value with intrinsic value, when they are not at all the same. Stop it.


Intrinsic value can be subjective, but it doesn't negate that there is a general amount of value greater than nothing.
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The Liberated Territories
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:22 pm

Silicon-Labs Corporation wrote:Simply put, I own myself because

a. No large power of govournment claims ownership of me (Aka im not a slave)
b. There is no other mind or brain inside of me that claims ownership

tl;dr nobody else says they own me but me


You spelt "corporation" wrong in your avatar, fyi.
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Arkolon
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Postby Arkolon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:23 pm

Conscentia wrote:
Arkolon wrote:The principle of justice is just because individuals have rights independent of their governing body, which is backed by none other than self-ownership itself. This isn't circular because I was not justifying self-ownership in the desert-island scenario.

Except you were justifying self-ownership using the principle, so the argument is still a circle - it's just got a bigger circumference.

A labour theory of property justifies self-ownership. We were discussing why "finders keepers" isn't unjust or unfair, not self-ownership.

You've tried doing bad maths and circular arguments, how about you try something else?

Bad maths? I have never even met anyone who doesn't understand how dividing two sides of an equation by their equal coefficient results in a functional "dropping" of these coefficients. And yes, they are coefficients because we are assigning x a qualitative value, the coefficient. A blue ball in a set of objects where everything is, and can only be, blue would be as such that

blue • ball = blue • objects

becomes

ball = objects

and yes, I'm on my phone again.
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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:24 pm

Silicon-Labs Corporation wrote:Simply put, I own myself because

a. No large power of govournment claims ownership of me (Aka im not a slave)
b. There is no other mind or brain inside of me that claims ownership

tl;dr nobody else says they own me but me

So on the basis that there is no competing claim?
But what if there was? The government could change slavery laws, or your left and right lobes could be split surgically and develop competing personalities (bizarre as it sounds, it's happened already).

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Conscentia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26681
Founded: Feb 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Conscentia » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:25 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Conscentia wrote:You keep conflating subjective value with intrinsic value, when they are not at all the same. Stop it.

Intrinsic value can be subjective, but it doesn't negate that there is a general amount of value greater than nothing.

No it can't. By definition, intrinsic value would be inherent to the object, and independent of subjectivity.

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