Feminists today: are they doing it wrong?

[Greater Beggnig]

We've all seen some of the latest campaigns in feminism, the "Ban Bossy" campaign and their reaction to the 'Women Against Feminism.'

Let me clarify my position before I start. I am not a MRA nor am I a sexist. I hate gender roles and I call people out for assigning them all the time. I see that there is still negative social stigma towards women. I've seen, for example, in my own country of Australia, the petty and neurotic obsession with how Julia Gillard dressed, when we'd never given a damn what our other Prime Ministers wore.

The Ban Bossy campaign was a very poorly thought out idea. Sure, being called bossy might make someone less likely to take up leadership roles, but if your aspiration to lead can be destroyed by one word, the question has to be asked. Were you really leadership material in the first place? Besides, doesn't this campaign just highlight that women aren't equal to men and are seen as more fragile in our society? Doesn't it just perpetuate this myth that women are delicate flowers, who must be protected from negative influence at all costs?

Where has Feminism's 'we can do it!' attitude gone?

The reaction to 'Women against Feminism' by Rebecca Brink highlighted once again the way in which feminists are behaving incorrectly. This image is the most potent example:

When the Civil Rights Movement was in full swing in America, how did the movement succeed in changing people's minds? Was it by saying 'Teach whites not to be racist!' or by getting aggressive? No. It was by making moving speeches that actually convinced people. Can you imagine if, as a white person in the 1960's, you saw an image of someone holding a placard like this saying 'I don't need the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam because I have poor reasoning skills and have failed to see aggressive anti-racist rhetoric within the context of centuries of violence against the black race.' You would be incensed. You wouldn't think, 'oh, maybe they have a point,' you would think, these guys are crazy. Another issue is that this claims that if you disagree with aggressive feminist rhetoric you have poor reasoning skills. Oh, do I? Yes, I do have bad reasoning skills because I've failed to take centuries of violence into account when thinking that saying 'I'm reading, fuck-face' is not an appropriate way to act when being interrupted while reading a list. Acting like that isn't going to convince anyone of your point.

Which path is Feminism going down? The path of MLK or the path of NOI and the Black Panthers?

[The Sotoan Union]

More than any other civil rights movement, except for maybe Men's Rights, feminism has no center. Feminists have never agreed on what paths to take and what the movement means. So it's not going to go down one path, and has never gone down one path. It will always be divided individual groups.

[Tahar Joblis]

Which path is Feminism going down? The path of MLK or the path of NOI and the Black Panthers?

As a movement, feminism is collectively headed down the path to radicalism.

• Within feminism it is fashionable to identify yourself as "radical" even if you are not, so people are making a display out of radicalism in order to score points in an in-group way.
• There's very little effort by feminists to exclude hateful misandry from the movement.
• Feminism has a long history of not doing anything in particular on behalf of problems thought to be men's problems, but feminists violently attack any independent group that attempts to address gendered problems.
• "Tumblr-feminism," as it might be called, is in a very unhealthy place where affirmation replaces information - a growing problem for a number of groups now that the Internet lets them insulate themselves from having to communicate with outside thought so much more effectively.
• Most of the important policy victories of feminism have already been won in the modern West.

The last one is crucial. In the US, for example, feminists' #1 issue as a movement is now how convenient it is for women to access reproductive health services. Not whether or not women have the right to abortion, birth control pills, et cetera, but how affordable it is, how long a drive is needed to get to a clinic, how many protesters are allowed where, what sorts of decisions insurers are allowed to make with regard to coverage and pricing, et cetera.

The major issues have almost all been solved. This means lots of people who were active feminists declared victory and went home. The entire mission of liberal feminism was to have rights equal to men and protection against discrimination, and that's done. So either you focus on the Third World, you focus on the interests of women rather than on equal rights, or you change your focus to something else, say, GSM rights, where there's a lot of progress left to be made even in the First World.

[Arumdaum]

More than any other civil rights movement, except for maybe Men's Rights, feminism has no center. Feminists have never agreed on what paths to take and what the movement means. So it's not going to go down one path, and has never gone down one path. It will always be divided individual groups.

the mra movement is as much of a civil rights movement as the kkk lol

[The Sotoan Union]

More than any other civil rights movement, except for maybe Men's Rights, feminism has no center. Feminists have never agreed on what paths to take and what the movement means. So it's not going to go down one path, and has never gone down one path. It will always be divided individual groups.

the mra movement is as much of a civil rights movement as the kkk lol

That's not entirely true, but the decentralized nature of it tends to attract a lot of mysogynists.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

Its going down the shitter obviously, I do wonder if it will spread to other countries that don't have equality of sex though, they need a cultural kick first before change can be done, and when that happens we cannot give them third wave feminism, that will end badly.

[Cyrisnia]

More than any other civil rights movement, except for maybe Men's Rights, feminism has no center. Feminists have never agreed on what paths to take and what the movement means. So it's not going to go down one path, and has never gone down one path. It will always be divided individual groups.

the mra movement is as much of a civil rights movement as the kkk lol

yep

[Arkolon]

Feminism 2k14: A Wave Too Far

[Benuty]

Define "wrong"?

[Geilinor]

Define "wrong"?

Doing more harm to the name of feminism than benefit.

[Forsher]

Look, the sarcastic, passive aggressive, total lack of interest in understanding either that there are various reasons for and ways of criticising feminism that typifies discussions of feminist issues on the internet speaks of a movement that has problems with unhelpful characters associating with it online. This is further complicated by the big issues being largely solved and the one's that remain (such as representation and the pay gap) being quite complex.

I think we'll continue to see ill-thought out approaches to internet discussions by internet feminists. I do think feminism IRL is capable of recognising that the approach many internet feminists take isn't constructive (and, indeed, is often destructive).

[Greater Beggnig]

Its going down the shitter obviously, I do wonder if it will spread to other countries that don't have equality of sex though, they need a cultural kick first before change can be done, and when that happens we cannot give them third wave feminism, that will end badly.

Constantly playing the victim and continuing to focus on western society will not achieve that end.

[Haktiva]

Well I don't think they have any real claim to be for equality since they call themselves feminists, rather than egalitarian. In all honesty I don't much care anymore, it's rather fun to watch society go down the shitter thanks to political correctness, cultural marxism, and runaway entitlement programs.

[Meryuma]

You don't know much about third wave feminism or the Black Panthers, do you?

The major issues have almost all been solved. This means lots of people who were active feminists declared victory and went home. The entire mission of liberal feminism was to have rights equal to men and protection against discrimination, and that's done. So either you focus on the Third World, you focus on the interests of women rather than on equal rights, or you change your focus to something else, say, GSM rights, where there's a lot of progress left to be made even in the First World.

Only looking at legislation is a shallow approach to understanding and combating oppression.

[Allanea]

Which path is Feminism going down? The path of MLK or the path of NOI and the Black Panthers?

As a movement, feminism is collectively headed down the path to radicalism.

• Within feminism it is fashionable to identify yourself as "radical" even if you are not, so people are making a display out of radicalism in order to score points in an in-group way.
• There's very little effort by feminists to exclude hateful misandry from the movement.
• Feminism has a long history of not doing anything in particular on behalf of problems thought to be men's problems, but feminists violently attack any independent group that attempts to address gendered problems.
• "Tumblr-feminism," as it might be called, is in a very unhealthy place where affirmation replaces information - a growing problem for a number of groups now that the Internet lets them insulate themselves from having to communicate with outside thought so much more effectively.
• Most of the important policy victories of feminism have already been won in the modern West.

The last one is crucial. In the US, for example, feminists' #1 issue as a movement is now how convenient it is for women to access reproductive health services. Not whether or not women have the right to abortion, birth control pills, et cetera, but how affordable it is, how long a drive is needed to get to a clinic, how many protesters are allowed where, what sorts of decisions insurers are allowed to make with regard to coverage and pricing, et cetera.

I don't know if I agree with this.

I mean, you are right that Tumblr-feminism is a really really unhealthy place, but I think there are many cultural issues that feminists (both male and female) can and should address, like the portrayal of female sexuality in media and educational material, the pepetration of negative and unconstructive stereotypes of women, rape culture, etc. These are real, serious issues, they might not rise to the point of women being stoned in the streets but they still are serious issues.

[Forsher]

Its going down the shitter obviously, I do wonder if it will spread to other countries that don't have equality of sex though, they need a cultural kick first before change can be done, and when that happens we cannot give them third wave feminism, that will end badly.

Constantly playing the victim and continuing to focus on western society will not achieve that end.

It is perfectly appropriate for persons in the western world to focus their social efforts on the western world.

[Allanea]

You don't know much about third wave feminism or the Black Panthers, do you?

It's perfectly legitimate to disagree and reject their views.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Feminists are acknowledging the damaging consequences of name-calling, bullying, and negative, nonconstructive feedback sound the alarms

[Greater Beggnig]

You don't know much about third wave feminism or the Black Panthers, do you?

The major issues have almost all been solved. This means lots of people who were active feminists declared victory and went home. The entire mission of liberal feminism was to have rights equal to men and protection against discrimination, and that's done. So either you focus on the Third World, you focus on the interests of women rather than on equal rights, or you change your focus to something else, say, GSM rights, where there's a lot of progress left to be made even in the First World.

Only looking at legislation is a shallow approach to understanding and combating oppression.

I know, the Black Panthers were a paramilitary group, on matters of 'third wave feminism' I am perhaps less knowledgeable.

[Greater Beggnig]

Constantly playing the victim and continuing to focus on western society will not achieve that end.

It is perfectly appropriate for persons in the western world to focus their social efforts on the western world.

Okay. Apply that logic to any other issue that is many times worse in other countries and see how far you get before you realise how flawed that logic is.

[Forsher]

It is perfectly appropriate for persons in the western world to focus their social efforts on the western world.

Okay. Apply that logic to any other issue that is many times worse in other countries and see how far you get before you realise how flawed that logic is.

Such as?

In NZ, we talk about violence towards children. Focus? NZ.

In NZ, we talk about social inequality. Focus? NZ.

In NZ, we talk about gay marriage. Focus? NZ.

I can go on, do I need to? There is nothing wrong with this, at all, even if things are worse somewhere else.

Your logic is like saying that I shouldn't care about a genocide in ABCD because something worse is happening in EFGH.

[Allanea]

It is perfectly appropriate for persons in the western world to focus their social efforts on the western world.

Okay. Apply that logic to any other issue that is many times worse in other countries and see how far you get before you realise how flawed that logic is.

This is not a flawed logic. Civil liberties advocates spend much more money on protecting free speech in the West than they do protecting free speech in countries like Saudi Arabia.

[Tahar Joblis]

You don't know much about third wave feminism or the Black Panthers, do you?

The major issues have almost all been solved. This means lots of people who were active feminists declared victory and went home. The entire mission of liberal feminism was to have rights equal to men and protection against discrimination, and that's done. So either you focus on the Third World, you focus on the interests of women rather than on equal rights, or you change your focus to something else, say, GSM rights, where there's a lot of progress left to be made even in the First World.

Only looking at legislation is a shallow approach to understanding and combating oppression.

Only looking at problems from the perspective of how they can be construed as oppression of women is a shallow approach to understanding and propagating gender equality. It is also fatally flawed, unlike the pursuit of the legislation of equal rights, and the pursuit of anti-discrimination policy. The complete mission of liberal feminism did not stop with nominal rights, but continued to the systematic implementation of protections for those rights. And it's worked. If you face discrimination because you are a woman, you have avenues of recourse.

The project of equality in legislation and policy, enforced by anti-discrimination and equal rights statutes, what gets divided into liberal feminism whenever someone decides to slice up the feminist movement into component historical parts, is a wholly positive project. And you can't openly attack that project for being wrong, so you simply attack that project as shallow. It's not particularly shallow; it took more than a century to build, spanned multiple waves of activism, and in the case of the United States, also helped lead to the permanent abolition of slavery and temporary abolition of alcohol.

Are there remaining areas to work on in terms of sexism still stalking the land? Yes.
Can they be solved by declaring women oppressed and affirming that only feminine perspectives on the problems are legitimate? Very unlikely, in most cases.

[Greater Beggnig]

Okay. Apply that logic to any other issue that is many times worse in other countries and see how far you get before you realise how flawed that logic is.

Such as?

It is perfectly appropriate for persons in the western world to not donate to charities because they still have to pay their bills and buy consumer goods.

[Allanea]

Such as?

It is perfectly appropriate for persons in the western world to not donate to charities because they still have to pay their bills and buy consumer goods.

Are you saying that is untrue?