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Is atheism/religion a force for good or for bad in society?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:24 pm
by Jumalariik
Is atheism/religion a force for good or for bad in society?

My reasoning concerning atheism is found here, It's long but I would like to see opinions.
I view myself as a baptist and an anarchist and live in two atheist household. My anarchist views are aimed at following a direct understanding of the Bible, thus, I espouse class struggle, anti-racism, anti-imperialism, LGBT rights, gender equality and religious law. I attend a baptist church, and since it is in the Northeast, it is pretty tame compared to southern ones, it is viewed as one of the more progressive Baptist conferences. I honestly despise the Catholic establishment for its many obvious problems, yet I do like Catholicism as I respect the other 2 monotheistic religions.

Now no more about me, now to the actual issues at hand:

I would like to start with the list of things that make you angry about religion:

-Discrimination on atheists
Many claim to be angered by the discrimination that atheists face, I would like to say that I am sorry for that discrimination, but that I think that many different groups face far worse. I want to say this: the majority of atheists are white, male, middle class, educated people. This is objectively true as you can see from this source:
http://atheistscholar.org/AtheistPsycho ... phics.aspx
My point is this in showing this: The oppression that atheists face is far less than literally any other oppressed minority. This could be for three reasons: 1. atheists are too few in number, 2. atheists are privileged enough to be safe or 3. atheists are not that hated. I have not found one example of atheists being killed for their views in developed countries within the last 70 years, if there are, show me. On the other hand, oppression of women (as you illustrate in your talk) get their genitals mutilated and get stoned to death. Blacks get lynched and shoved into subhuman living conditions with little chance provided of getting out of them. Working class people have to have multiple jobs to stay clothed, fed and housed. Muslims get murdered and arrested for their religion. Political radicals get jailed or killed. The discrimination that atheists face is not too great compared to others and if you are honest, you will see this. The complaints that atheists and Christians have in countries in the Middle East are real, yet, those were not mentioned very much. I would say that within the last century, there have been many more martyrdoms of Christians in the world than of atheists (solely due to population, maybe.) If you want sources for any of my points, I can easily get them. I know that this is silly of me, as a white, middle-class male to be telling others how atheists are privileged with the same privileges as I have, but I am doing so all the same. Atheists may seem like victims, something that honestly, they are not. I would like to continue to point out the problem with the logic by pointing out the lack of atheist charities. What do atheists actually do to solve the problems of poverty or racism? It was Baptists who spearheaded the Civil Rights movement and Christians are dying of Ebola in Africa, they got exposed to it trying to help people with it. The Catholic church is one of the largest charities in the world.
Point being, the complaint that atheists are oppressed is stupid and false. Many people are far more oppressed, yet, the people trying to fix this are overwhelmingly religious. Religious people are statistically poorer than atheists. Atheists are statistically more male than religious people. Atheists are statistically whiter than religious people. Religious people statistically do more charity than atheists.

-Sexual/gender inequality caused by religion
First off, this is a stupid claim because one is simply lumping all religions together. (obvious issue with your statement throughout) Secondly, sexual and gender oppression essentially span over all times in history and across all peoples. Beyond this, in our newly secular society, more oppressive, offensive and demeaning depictions of women are propping up. Pornography, video games, television, music, celebrity culture as a whole and our current mainstream and especially youth culture as a whole is demeaning towards women and often violently depicts them in submissive roles. I will give an example of the ones I know:
-Pornography: I do not view pornography so I do not know, however, it is well known that it depicts women in submissive roles.
-Video games: Grand theft Auto is filled with violence towards women, especially prostitutes.
-Television: Shows increasingly depict violent sex acts, often involving incest. (Game of Thrones, Boardwalk Empire)
-Music: Gangsta rap is filled with the use of the word “bitch” used to put women down and paints them as accessories very often, female artists themselves often seem to be submissive.
-Celebrity/mainstream/youth culture: Ditto

Point being, in secular society, women are still mistreated, simply differently than in religious societies. Christian scriptures, the ones I know best as a Christian, do not view women’s roles as accessories to men, what our culture does, but instead, at worst as people who should be helped and protected by men, something I do not like, but it is true.
What else is true is that religions have a variety of stances on this issue.

My essential point is this:
Militant atheists make blanket claims about religion, especially that religion is elitist, while at the same time, atheists are proven to mainly be white, middle class males. Atheists are the backbone of the radical left, however, many are very reactionary and I would argue that religion has more grassroots working class support.

My view on religion is different, I think that religion is helpful to people and that the bad that people claim it does would be done either way, with or without religion, if there was not religion, something else would be used to keep society the way that it is.

Is atheism/religion a force for good or for bad in society?
I think that this could be interesting conversation if we keep on topic.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:25 pm
by Earth in Roughly 1000 Years
Neither inherently. Thoughtful and intelligent post, that's what I like to see.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:27 pm
by Tuthina
I like to think that extremes and militant stance on either side to be harmful, but otherwise they are neutral on a grand scheme of things: people can be motivated to greatness by either, but people can also drive themselves to doom by them as well.

Ultimately, it comes down to the individual, and I think it is better if we just let each other goes by without actively try to replace each other. Together we can rule the galaxy.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:41 pm
by Margno
For the love of all things holy please take the word stupid out of your OP. Incorrect. Baseless. Indefenseable. Inaccurate. A weak argument. Really anything else.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:43 pm
by Thalbania
Religion sometimes makes people act and believe badly. Sometime it doesn't. Regardless of all the progressive religious people (who of course, tend to get there by injecting their own progressive morality which they would have held anyway into their religion), the fundamentalists aren't worth the risk.

My best friend is depressed and struggles with gender issues. Their parents, however, are radical Muslims; they think that psychiatric help is a scam and that the only way to "get over" depression is through prayer. I've had to coach them away from committing suicide because their parents won't let them get help.

This is necessarily a result of religion. It doesn't matter that not all religious people think this way; religion as a concept has planted the seeds for these people. People use religion, even when it was given to them with the best intentions, to justify evil things.

No one has ever used atheism to justify anything. At worst, hatred of religion (which is different from atheism, and not always productive) has caused persecution in a few countries for a window of time. That's nothing to what has been caused by religion.
My view on religion is different, I think that religion is helpful to people and that the bad that people claim it does would be done either way, with or without religion, if there was not religion, something else would be used to keep society the way that it is.

That's true, but it isn't relevant to whether religion exerts a positive or negative influence on society. You might as well say "Donuts aren't unhealthy, because if it weren't for them, people would eat unhealthy things anyway."

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:44 pm
by South Pacific Republic
They can both be good, however, new atheism isn't good along with fundamentalism

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:52 pm
by Silent Majority
if there was not religion, something else would be used to keep society the way that it is.


This doesn't strike me as a very good argument in favor of religion, just an argument against specifically targeting religion while ignoring other mediums for the expression of the dominant ideology.

But Religion's role in keeping people complacent in the face of injustices isn't one that should be ignored.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:55 pm
by Adab
Both can be good and bad, depending on the situation (religion, for example, provides rules and regulations that its followers will adhere to, preventing lawlessness and anarchy, but sometimes it can also lead to violence). I'm more concerned about the extremist movements currently in existence.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:26 pm
by Jumalariik
Thalbania wrote:Religion sometimes makes people act and believe badly. Sometime it doesn't. Regardless of all the progressive religious people (who of course, tend to get there by injecting their own progressive morality which they would have held anyway into their religion), the fundamentalists aren't worth the risk.

My best friend is depressed and struggles with gender issues. Their parents, however, are radical Muslims; they think that psychiatric help is a scam and that the only way to "get over" depression is through prayer. I've had to coach them away from committing suicide because their parents won't let them get help.

This is necessarily a result of religion. It doesn't matter that not all religious people think this way; religion as a concept has planted the seeds for these people. People use religion, even when it was given to them with the best intentions, to justify evil things.

No one has ever used atheism to justify anything. At worst, hatred of religion (which is different from atheism, and not always productive) has caused persecution in a few countries for a window of time. That's nothing to what has been caused by religion.
My view on religion is different, I think that religion is helpful to people and that the bad that people claim it does would be done either way, with or without religion, if there was not religion, something else would be used to keep society the way that it is.

That's true, but it isn't relevant to whether religion exerts a positive or negative influence on society. You might as well say "Donuts aren't unhealthy, because if it weren't for them, people would eat unhealthy things anyway."

"Atheism has never justified anything." Total bullshit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio ... viet_Union
Try again
Also, the Catholic church is one of the biggest healthcare providers in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C ... ealth_care
Sorry to be confrontational for the second time.
Also, that argument is not true. Criticizing religion is like criticizing LGBT people, there are many varieties and so one comes off as silly. Name me big problems objectively caused by religion. I'm not saying that is hard, I'm asking you to do it. You story form personal experience honestly does not say much, mainly because there are many more examples of people being saved from suicide by religion if we want to play the anecdote game. I'm sorry to seem callous about it. I am sorry for the person and for you as from what I understand, you have had a hard time, far harder than me.
http://articles.philly.com/1988-03-25/n ... al-priests
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Luke_Institute
Not all religion is against psychiatric help.
I would argue that many people are better off because of religion. Look at West Africa with the Ebola, the health people dying, many of them were from religious aid groups. I do not know of any atheist charities that are relevant, if there are any, show them forth.
Though I am confrontational, I am sorry and I wish you the best, honestly.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:28 pm
by Jumalariik
Margno wrote:For the love of all things holy please take the word stupid out of your OP. Incorrect. Baseless. Indefenseable. Inaccurate. A weak argument. Really anything else.

Sorry, the op was originally meant to be sent to an atheist who made a bunch of stupid arguments in a talk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUI_ML1qkQE

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:31 pm
by MERIZoC
Neither is inherently either.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:33 pm
by Sun Wukong
Jumalariik wrote:"Atheism has never justified anything." Total bullshit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio ... viet_Union
Try again
Also, the Catholic church is one of the biggest healthcare providers in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C ... ealth_care
Sorry to be confrontational for the second time.

Atheism is not a doctrine, and has no content. It cannot justify anything. Marxism can.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:36 pm
by Vikipolis
either both or neither. there as many stupid religious people as there are atheists. some people start a whole debate when you say "bless you". personally I'm against all forms of church but, whether it's religion and beliefs, I don't think you should explain yourself, but you shouldn't shove it down people's throats either. on the other hand, atheism encourages you to question everything and embrace science (although religion and science aren't opposits) while religion has it's ups too, some of it's moral codes aren't half bad and teach people never to give up. all in all, I think both of them are essentially good, but rotten people spoil it all

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:47 pm
by Jumalariik
Sun Wukong wrote:
Jumalariik wrote:"Atheism has never justified anything." Total bullshit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio ... viet_Union
Try again
Also, the Catholic church is one of the biggest healthcare providers in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C ... ealth_care
Sorry to be confrontational for the second time.

Atheism is not a doctrine, and has no content. It cannot justify anything. Marxism can.

Religion is not a doctrine, it also has next to no content, seeing that there is so much diversity. To say that religion causes death means that atheism has to hold to the same criteria, if so, it does show that atheism has also killed people. You can't escape that. It would not matter anyway to the Christians killed by the Soviets if "atheism has no content," they were still being killed in its name. Semantics.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:48 pm
by Sun Wukong
Jumalariik wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:Atheism is not a doctrine, and has no content. It cannot justify anything. Marxism can.

Religion is not a doctrine, it also has next to no content, seeing that there is so much diversity. To say that religion causes death means that atheism has to hold to the same criteria, if so, it does show that atheism has also killed people. You can't escape that. It would not matter anyway to the Christians killed by the Soviets if "atheism has no content," they were still being killed in its name. Semantics.

Religion is a category. Religions are and do.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:56 pm
by Liriena
Neither are, in principle, good nor bad things in society. Atheism may become a problem if some people transform their atheism into an extremely restrictive positivism that blunts our imagination. Religion often becomes a problem the moment it becomes extreme, imposes itself on others and/or resorts to an irresponsible denial of its own historical nature and reality.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:59 pm
by The Serbian Empire
Militant atheists and theists are dangerous. I think it's the militant part that is most troubling though.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:07 pm
by The Scientific States
Both can harm society, but neither are inherently bad. If people aren't tolerant of one's religion, or lack of one, that's when problems arise. So, atheism and religion aren't inherently bad for society, militant atheism and militant theism are bad.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:13 pm
by Socialist Tera
Neither.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:37 pm
by Threlizdun
Religion as at best an unnecessary force based on unscientific ideals and at worst a force of domination and destruction. It serves no purpose and I would be happy to see the world rid of it. That being said, I certainly don't dislike people just because they are religious and don't take religious views as an indication of one's intelligence.

Jumalariik, you again are attacking mediums that sometimes display problems rather than societal sources of said problems. Pornography in and of itself is not demeaning to women. Pornography reflects sexual fantasies purely with the individual viewer's pleasure in question. It isn't supposed to be realistic unless the target audience wants it to be realistic, and such a target audience exists with realistic porn catered towards them. The fact that pornography focuses on the pleasure of men is because men are the primary target audience of most porn producers. This isn't because pornography is inherently anti-women, but because gender roles have largely restricted women's sexuality while being far more lenient of men's. As society progresses and gender roles are seeing gradual erosion the market for porn catered to women has increased. All genders are restricted by societal gender roles. Their erosion is necessary to further equality and expand the possibilities of individual expression. Sexuality is strongly tied to gender roles and its significance cannot be ignored. Universally opposing porn limits the expressions of human sexuality and thus prevents the increased erosion of these archaic ideals. By being so sex-negative and anti-porn you are opposing women, not helping them.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:44 pm
by Stagnant Axon Terminal
Neutrality, until they act like a fucking douchemobile.
I've been there, I acted like that, I feel awful about it.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:46 pm
by Atlanticatia
I think that neither is a good or bad force.

For example, religion may be involved in providing charity.

However, that is irrelevant as a secular state can finance a universal welfare state (i.e. Scandinavia).

Both can have negative or positive effects on society, although I am of the opinion that someone can positively contribute to society regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:50 pm
by Tubbsalot
Earth in Roughly 1000 Years wrote:Thoughtful and intelligent post, that's what I like to see.

Likewise. What a shame it's been so long since we saw one.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:10 pm
by Akema
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.-Steven Weinberg


While I know people may just use religion an an excuse to do evil things, you have to admit that it would be easier to get someone to do something if you convinced them it is part of their religion.

I also know that religion can be used for good, it goes both ways.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:11 pm
by Nationes Pii Redivivi
Religion is an evil that diverts loyalty from the state, putting it instead in an ancient book and a idol, and must be abolished in the most perfect of states.