Abortion: human right?

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

You do realize by the time her pregnancy is detected there is already a heart beat and nervous system developing. Not to mention a brain.

Why do you think I care?

Because those signs equal life. Are you okay with ending a life to pursue a life of selfish desire?

[Othelos]

False equivalency. Pregnancy is not guaranteed from having sex.

Neither is death if the bridge isn't too high.

I would consider it a problem if a country had restrictions on bodily sovereignty.

That's one way of putting it. Another way of putting it is that it permits a high amount of bodily sovereignty. As in, that of the fetus. You had sex and created a new life that way. Now you're responsible for it.

It's not my stance, but one that I can understand. And none of this comes as a surprise. If you live in a country where you can't have an abortion and don't want pregnancy, don't have unprotected sex. If protected sex is still too large of a risk for you, don't have sex. If you take the risk and lose, deal with the consequences.

Many women will do so through unsafe abortions, which could result in death, or permanent damage.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Ah, yes. Everyone who never wants kids is now banned from sex for life. Also, if you want kids at 32, but you're married at 22, you must wear a chastity belt. Government sanctioned.

No, that's not my point. My point is you should stay away from that behavior until you're able to care for a potential child.

Yeah no, that's just stupid. If me and my girlfriend want to have sex just to have sex we're going to. We aren't planning on having a child anytime soon and that shouldn't stop us from having sex.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It is painful, disorienting, and unpleasant in the extreme. It is also temporary, and no justification for ending a life unless it places the life of the mother in danger. And I try to avoid killing anything whenever I can.

Wait, so if you got pregnant, but didn't want to have to go through birth or pregnancy & everything associated, you wouldn't have a problem with it, because 'it's only temporary'?

And, actually, the mother has a right to bodily sovereignty. Since the fetus is biologically dependent on the mother, she has to consent to carrying the fetus. If she doesn't consent, she can, and will try to remove the fetus, whether it's legal or not.

I wonder if he knows that a pregnancy has lasting effects on a woman. It's not just the 9 months' gestation. Receding gums, reduction of life span, heart problems, allergies that surface while pregnant and stick after child birth, epistomies, early onset of osteoporosis, early signs of diabetes.. all very real side-effects that are or can be long-term.

[Volnus (Ancient)]

People seem to forget that it isn't just "9 months of temporary discomfort". After that the mother has to care for the baby. That's, what, decades where she has to feed an extra mouth. Which she probably can't afford if she wants an abortion in the first place.
Personally, I'm not fully convinced by either side, but one thing I do want is that abortion should be legal for rape (or similar) victims. Seriously, people want to force the victim of a traumatic incident into 9 months of "slavery" to the fetus, then most of a lifetime of caring for it? I believe that's the definition of "parasite". She is in no way to blame for it, but she carries all the consequences of it. Is that fair?
Oh, and before anyone thinks about somehow not caring of the baby, supporting giving up your children brings up...other issues.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Her rights to decide what goes on in her body trump the rights of a fetus. Yes.

You do realize by the time her pregnancy is detected there is already a heart beat and nervous system developing. Not to mention a brain.

And?

[Apparatchikstan]

Finds herself pregnant? Are we talking about Schmi Skywalker?

First of all, Shmi.
And yes, a woman finds that she is pregnant. She is not omnipotent and just knows, it is something she has to figure the fuck out.

But you do possess enough self-awareness to realize and remember that you might have done something to encourage the condition?
Let me take a moment to clarify something. If sex is forced on you, whether by a stranger, boyfriend gone wrong, or beligerant husband, whatever, then by all means deal with that situation as you see fit. But if you willingly participated in an act that by evolution's design has consequences that reach far past the moment, you do not have my sympathy.

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

You do realize by the time her pregnancy is detected there is already a heart beat and nervous system developing. Not to mention a brain.

And?

That's a life.

[Jelarais]

Wait, so if you got pregnant, but didn't want to have to go through birth or pregnancy & everything associated, you wouldn't have a problem with it, because 'it's only temporary'?

And, actually, the mother has a right to bodily sovereignty. Since the fetus is biologically dependent on the mother, she has to consent to carrying the fetus. If she doesn't consent, she can, and will try to remove the fetus, whether it's legal or not.

I wonder if he knows that a pregnancy has lasting effects on a woman. It's not just the 9 months' gestation. Receding gums, reduction of life span, heart problems, allergies that surface while pregnant and stick after child birth, epistomies, early onset of osteoporosis, early signs of diabetes.. all very real side-effects that are or can be long-term.

All true. Still not a justification for ending a life, especially one that will grow into a fully sentient being.

[The Flood]

Would you not walk over a bed of hot coals to save a 1 day old baby?

That's not even close to the same scenario.

It's exactly the same as abortion.

[Othelos]

Why do you think I care?

Because those signs equal life. Are you okay with ending a life to pursue a life of selfish desire?

It's not equal. The fetus is biologically dependent on the mother. And everything everyone does is selfish in some way.

And, if the woman doesn't think the potential child she would have to raise, would have a good enough environment for the child to turn out well, how is that selfish? She can have children later, when it makes sense to, and there is a good environment.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

And?

That's a life.

So's the woman's. She too is a life. Why is the fetus's life more important than the woman's?

[Shilya]

Neither is death if the bridge isn't too high.



That's one way of putting it. Another way of putting it is that it permits a high amount of bodily sovereignty. As in, that of the fetus. You had sex and created a new life that way. Now you're responsible for it.

It's not my stance, but one that I can understand. And none of this comes as a surprise. If you live in a country where you can't have an abortion and don't want pregnancy, don't have unprotected sex. If protected sex is still too large of a risk for you, don't have sex. If you take the risk and lose, deal with the consequences.

Many women will do so through unsafe abortions, which could result in death, or permanent damage.

In other words, they take an action and then have to deal with the consequences. Yes, it sucks, but it's hardly my fault if people kill themselves because they can't bear the thought of having a child.

Every action carries a certain amount of risk. The risk may be small, it may be not relevant, but it's there. By taking the action and knowing the risk, you consent to the risk in exchange for getting the action. This isn't limited to sex, it's in literally everything you do. Take a train, you exchange getting places for the risk of a train accident. Take the car, it's a car accident. Stay at home, it's losing an opportunity or a train derailing into your home. Have sex, it's pregnancy. Have an unsafe abortion, it's death.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I hope you can justify my suicide, too, because that's what would happen. And the hundreds of thousands of women who die horrific, painful deaths from gutting themselves trying to have an abortion at home. And the millions that suffer irreparable damage to their organs. And the millions who end up in the hospital.
But hey. At least you got the joy of forcing a woman to endure the worst 9 months of her life so that she can shove more kids into a shithole of an orphanage.

I am attempting to discuss this without passion, but you seem intent on attempting to make this an argument rather than a discussion.

At any rate, half of the argument you presented was dependent on the premise that I want to make abortion illegal, thereby forcing women who want to have an abortion to try to attempt one without the assistance of medical professionals. Your premise is flawed. I simply believe that it is ethically reprehensible to have an abortion, and that there are many alternatives that should be explored--the first of which is practicing safe sex--before abortion should even be considered an option.

As far as the orphanage situation goes, I am also an advocate of the U.S. government doing a major rehaul of the foster care and orphanage system that is currently in use. I do not believe that the current system is functional, and many things need to be fixed. However, the reprehensible conditions of the foster care system do not justify the ending of a life, either.

Yeah, you're right, I am passionate. I am really fucking passionate about this. You want to know why?
Because on July 17th, 2010, I went on my very first date. And I was raped. And impregnated.
And I risked my life to not be pregnant. I swallowed so many pills, and I beat myself so hard I have organ damage.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" have taken every single clinic out of my town and within a 2 hour radius.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" made it impossible for me to get help.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" fucked me over so bad that I was prepared to die rather than give birth.
I was on the verge of homelessness, in high school, I am severely ill, and my family is emotionally abusive.
But, hey, better I die than get an abortion free of judgement.

So when you ask me why I'm passionate about this, when you wonder why I get riled up, I'm going to tell you the same thing over and over and over.
Because people who believe what you believe nearly cost me my life.

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

No, that's not my point. My point is you should stay away from that behavior until you're able to care for a potential child.

Yeah no, that's just stupid. If me and my girlfriend want to have sex just to have sex we're going to. We aren't planning on having a child anytime soon and that shouldn't stop us from having sex.

No of course not, you'll just do things like everyone else and one day join the massive statistic of failed marriages.

People create their own problems.

Guess what, because We did things the right way We have no problems.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

That's not even close to the same scenario.

It's exactly the same as abortion.

uh
no
Sorry brah

[Othelos]

First of all, Shmi.
And yes, a woman finds that she is pregnant. She is not omnipotent and just knows, it is something she has to figure the fuck out.

But you do possess enough self-awareness to realize and remember that you might have done something to encourage the condition?
Let me take a moment to clarify something. If sex is forced on you, whether by a stranger, boyfriend gone wrong, or beligerant husband, whatever, then by all means deal with that situation as you see fit. But if you willingly participated in an act that by evolution's design has consequences that reach far past the moment, you do not have my sympathy.

Contraception isn't 100% effective, so even if they do everything right, the woman could still get pregnant.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Yeah no, that's just stupid. If me and my girlfriend want to have sex just to have sex we're going to. We aren't planning on having a child anytime soon and that shouldn't stop us from having sex.

No of course not, you'll just do things like everyone else and one day join the massive statistic of failed marriages.

People create their own problems.

Guess what, because We did things the right way We have no problems.

So having pre-marital sex means you'll have a failed marriage? I'm gonna guess you don't have a source to back up this bullshit?

[The Flood]

No, that's not my point. My point is you should stay away from that behavior until you're able to care for a potential child.

Yeah no, that's just stupid.

It's literally the opposite of stupid.

If me and my girlfriend want to have sex just to have sex we're going to.

Why?

We aren't planning on having a child anytime soon and that shouldn't stop us from having sex.

It should. To act otherwise is incredibly irresponsible.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I wonder if he knows that a pregnancy has lasting effects on a woman. It's not just the 9 months' gestation. Receding gums, reduction of life span, heart problems, allergies that surface while pregnant and stick after child birth, epistomies, early onset of osteoporosis, early signs of diabetes.. all very real side-effects that are or can be long-term.

All true. Still not a justification for ending a life, especially one that will grow into a fully sentient being.

Potentially grow into a sentient being. The woman, the person, has rights. Why are the rights of a potential being more important than her rights?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

First of all, Shmi.
And yes, a woman finds that she is pregnant. She is not omnipotent and just knows, it is something she has to figure the fuck out.

But you do possess enough self-awareness to realize and remember that you might have done something to encourage the condition?
Let me take a moment to clarify something. If sex is forced on you, whether by a stranger, boyfriend gone wrong, or beligerant husband, whatever, then by all means deal with that situation as you see fit. But if you willingly participated in an act that by evolution's design has consequences that reach far past the moment, you do not have my sympathy.

I don't give a flying fuck if I have your sympathy. I'll be getting an abortion and you won't stop me.

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

That's a life.

So's the woman's. She too is a life. Why is the fetus's life more important than the woman's?

Have you ever tried talking to a fetus? Or asking a newborn a question?

No, because they cannot communicate, and if that life wishes to live then it has a right to life, and no one has a right over it.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

No of course not, you'll just do things like everyone else and one day join the massive statistic of failed marriages.

People create their own problems.

Guess what, because We did things the right way We have no problems.

So having pre-marital sex means you'll have a failed marriage? I'm gonna guess you don't have a source to back up this bullshit?

Jesus told him.

[Washington Resistance Army]

It's literally the opposite of stupid.

Explain.

Why?

Gee, I don't know. Cuz sex is great maybe?

It should. To act otherwise is incredibly irresponsible.

No it's not, thanks for trying.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

So's the woman's. She too is a life. Why is the fetus's life more important than the woman's?

Have you ever tried talking to a fetus? Or asking a newborn a question?

No, because they cannot communicate, and if that life wishes to live then it has a right to life, and no one has a right over it.

I have a right to not have my body be intruded by a fetus. I have a right to remove it. It doesn't get special privileges to my body.