Do you seriously believe your "new British world order" fantasies?
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by Geilinor » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:53 pm
by Infected Mushroom » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:00 pm
by The New Sea Territory » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:43 pm
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by Persivis » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:40 pm
Seleucas wrote:
The British did some terrible things, but I could sooner understand being proud of the British Empire than I could being proud of being American. The British contributed greatly to globalization, helped to create a new global lingua franca, ended slavery (peacefully), and a number of states it colonized are quite successful thanks to the institutions it left and in spite of colonial oppression.
by OMGeverynameistaken » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:02 pm
Persivis wrote:Seleucas wrote:
The British did some terrible things, but I could sooner understand being proud of the British Empire than I could being proud of being American. The British contributed greatly to globalization, helped to create a new global lingua franca, ended slavery (peacefully), and a number of states it colonized are quite successful thanks to the institutions it left and in spite of colonial oppression.
Do you take an oath to insult the US in every other comment?
by Persivis » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:05 pm
by Rephesus » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:33 pm
by Forsher » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:33 pm
Costa Fierro wrote:Well, forgive me for delving into my socialist apologist side.
by Costa Fierro » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:36 pm
by Viritica » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:34 pm
by Vamtrl » Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:29 am
White Spider wrote:Looks like the majority of us Brits are proud of the British Empire :
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/26/bri ... ts20140727By three to one, British people think the British Empire is something to be proud of rather than ashamed of – they also tend to think it left its colonies better off, and a third would like it to still exist
Britain has long found it difficult to evaluate its former empire. Imperial nostalgia on television has been shamed by historians, and modern prime ministers have expressed ‘deep sorrow’ for Britain’s role in slavery – but they have also called on British people to celebrate the legacy of the Empire.
Among the British public, feelings tend to be positive. A new YouGov survey finds that most think the British Empire is more something to be proud of (59%) rather than ashamed of (19%). 23% don't know. Young people are least likely to feel pride over shame when it comes to the Empire, though about half (48%) of 18-24 year olds do. In comparison, about two-thirds (65%) of over 60s feel mostly proud.
Economically, the British Empire invested in infrastructure, established trading routes and installed institutions – but it also extracted resources, oversaw famines and in some cases left behind instability. Though many (36%) are unsure, British people do tend to think that, overall, former British colonies are now better off for having been part of the empire, by 49-15%.
A third of British people (34%) also say they would like it if Britain still had an empire. Under half (45%) say they would not like the Empire to exist today. 20% don’t know.
The Commonwealth Games in Glasgow this year are the latest reminder of the British Empire, and of a determination to present its legacy as constructive. YouGov also asked which countries British people would especially like to do well at the events, with Australia, New Zealand and Canada being most favoured.
Do you think they're right to be proud of it?
I am proud of all the good we brought to the world and it's hard not to feel pride in a nation having that kind of unbroken record for empire size. There have been some negatives but ultimately this all boils down to "well what did theRomansBritish ever do for us?"
by Marcurix » Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:17 am
by Persivis » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:09 am
Forsher wrote:Probably his.
If you look at his points the British Empire was one of numerous empires that laid the foundations for globalisation as we know it today although was probably the most significant of those being the largest and one most keen on "free trade" (whether one wants to be proud of this is another question of course).
English is a lingua franca as a consequence of British dominance/strength rather than an outcome of any deliberate policy. Additionally, the US has probably done more to make this so in science through the poaching of German scientists or the emigration of German scientists.
Slavery was something that the British Empire tried to end but they (as looking out the window as it were will tell you) didn't succeed. The Atlantic Slave Trade was more effectively shut down but whatever the case force or the ability to apply force was absolutely central in British endeavours in such regards. As I mentioned earlier, ending slavery was also not a moral imperative that was uncompromisable. That the British Empire played a large role in building up the Atlantic Slave Trade isn't so relevant here but it's still a point that needs mentioning.
The last point is true, depending on how you define successful. Places like NZ, Canada, Ireland, Australia and (to use an older example) the US are all outwardly perfectly fine but all of them have troubles that can be directly traced back to colonial legacies (the British Empire being the most at fault in the case of Ireland for these and least in the case of the US). And then you move on to places like India and then even further along the line you reach the likes of Zimbabwe (although, to be fair, had Mugabe not been in charge for as long as he has it'd be better... still he's around and the way he is as a result of colonial policy).
That said, the USA is not so different whether you're comparing their historical actions (maritime versus primarily land based colonialism) or making a comparison where the US and the British Empire are compared to their peers and that comparison is then made (that is, the US is not the worst bully out there today but it's still a bully... a reading just as applicable to the British Empire with reasonably similar levels of white-washing). In such a sense it's probably easier to understand being proud of the British Empire as its crimes aren't ongoing (or, well, its direct crimes aren't). This is, of course, accepting the false view that one can't be proud of something while not being proud of its whole. Which is to say, it's really a matter of whether or not one thinks the best things the British Empire did are better than the best things the US has done.
by Imperializt Russia » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:42 am
Rephesus wrote:
Wiped out several significant civilizations, unified India under a foreign government, anglicized much of the world, committed a wide variety of genocides, built trade infrastructure, played a key role in the Colombian exchange, played a key role in the near-extinction of native Americans, oppressed millions, educated thousands, spread western ideals, repressed as stamped out foreign culture, among many other things.
Good and Bad... Mostly bad, better than most.
Infected Mushroom wrote:Geilinor wrote:Do you seriously believe your "new British world order" fantasies?
well the UK is too weak now and their empire is gone.
I don't see it ever having a chance of happening again now, especially because we live in a multi-polar world with lots of nuclear powers. Without them though, maybe the USA would have a chance in contemporary times at global unification.
Also,Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.
by Costa Fierro » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:12 am
Imperializt Russia wrote:Native American genocides are wholly on the part of colonists in British America.
by Imperializt Russia » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:45 am
Also,Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.
by Rephesus » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:13 am
Vamtrl wrote:White Spider wrote:Looks like the majority of us Brits are proud of the British Empire :
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/26/bri ... ts20140727
Do you think they're right to be proud of it?
I am proud of all the good we brought to the world and it's hard not to feel pride in a nation having that kind of unbroken record for empire size. There have been some negatives but ultimately this all boils down to "well what did theRomansBritish ever do for us?"
Without the Brits more then half the world would be uncivilized hell holes, so yea have some pride.
by Arthur King of the Britons » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:32 am
White Spider wrote:Looks like the majority of us Brits are proud of the British Empire :
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/26/bri ... ts20140727By three to one, British people think the British Empire is something to be proud of rather than ashamed of – they also tend to think it left its colonies better off, and a third would like it to still exist
Britain has long found it difficult to evaluate its former empire. Imperial nostalgia on television has been shamed by historians, and modern prime ministers have expressed ‘deep sorrow’ for Britain’s role in slavery – but they have also called on British people to celebrate the legacy of the Empire.
Among the British public, feelings tend to be positive. A new YouGov survey finds that most think the British Empire is more something to be proud of (59%) rather than ashamed of (19%). 23% don't know. Young people are least likely to feel pride over shame when it comes to the Empire, though about half (48%) of 18-24 year olds do. In comparison, about two-thirds (65%) of over 60s feel mostly proud.
Economically, the British Empire invested in infrastructure, established trading routes and installed institutions – but it also extracted resources, oversaw famines and in some cases left behind instability. Though many (36%) are unsure, British people do tend to think that, overall, former British colonies are now better off for having been part of the empire, by 49-15%.
A third of British people (34%) also say they would like it if Britain still had an empire. Under half (45%) say they would not like the Empire to exist today. 20% don’t know.
The Commonwealth Games in Glasgow this year are the latest reminder of the British Empire, and of a determination to present its legacy as constructive. YouGov also asked which countries British people would especially like to do well at the events, with Australia, New Zealand and Canada being most favoured.
Do you think they're right to be proud of it?
I am proud of all the good we brought to the world and it's hard not to feel pride in a nation having that kind of unbroken record for empire size. There have been some negatives but ultimately this all boils down to "well what did theRomansBritish ever do for us?"
by Seleucas » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:48 pm
Persivis wrote:Seleucas wrote:
The British did some terrible things, but I could sooner understand being proud of the British Empire than I could being proud of being American. The British contributed greatly to globalization, helped to create a new global lingua franca, ended slavery (peacefully), and a number of states it colonized are quite successful thanks to the institutions it left and in spite of colonial oppression.
Do you take an oath to insult the US in every other comment?
Forsher wrote:Persivis wrote:My post or his?
Probably his.
If you look at his points one sees a pattern where the interpretation or the facts are flawed.
With globalisation the British Empire was one of numerous empires that laid the foundations for globalisation as we know it today although was probably the most significant of those being the largest and one most keen on "free trade" (whether one wants to be proud of this is another question of course).
English is a lingua franca as a consequence of British dominance/strength rather than an outcome of any deliberate policy. Additionally, the US has probably done more to make this so in science through the poaching of German scientists or the emigration of German scientists.
Slavery was something that the British Empire tried to end but they (as looking out the window as it were will tell you) didn't succeed. The Atlantic Slave Trade was more effectively shut down but whatever the case force or the ability to apply force was absolutely central in British endeavours in such regards. As I mentioned earlier, ending slavery was also not a moral imperative that was uncompromisable. That the British Empire played a large role in building up the Atlantic Slave Trade isn't so relevant here but it's still a point that needs mentioning.
The last point is true, depending on how you define successful. Places like NZ, Canada, Ireland, Australia and (to use an older example) the US are all outwardly perfectly fine but all of them have troubles that can be directly traced back to colonial legacies (the British Empire being the most at fault in the case of Ireland for these and least in the case of the US). And then you move on to places like India and then even further along the line you reach the likes of Zimbabwe (although, to be fair, had Mugabe not been in charge for as long as he has it'd be better... still he's around and the way he is as a result of colonial policy).
That said, the USA is not so differentwhetherwhen you're comparing their historical actions (maritime versus primarily land based colonialism) or making a comparison where the US and the British Empire are compared to their peers and that comparison is then made (that is, the US is not the worst bully out there today but it's still a bully... a reading just as applicable to the British Empire with reasonably similar levels of white-washing). In such a sense it's probably easier to understand being proud of the British Empire as its crimes aren't ongoing (or, well, its direct crimes aren't). This is, of course, accepting the false view that one can't be proud of something while not being proud of its whole. Which is to say, it's really a matter of whether or not one thinks the best things the British Empire did are better than the best things the US has done.
by Costa Fierro » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:05 pm
by OMGeverynameistaken » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:14 pm
by Persivis » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:28 pm
OMGeverynameistaken wrote:I should note that the British idea of 'free trade' largely consisted of forcibly opening pre-industrial economies to their industrial goods, then systematically destroying said economies by flooding them with said industrial goods. And with the local economies in a death grip, the British (and other colonial powers) could easily enforce demands to export what they wanted...namely generally unprofitable but industrially essential goods such as gum acacia and palm oil.
Incidentally, Britain didn't ban slavery. It banned the slave TRADE. Slavery was legal in some of Britain's African colonies until the 1930s.
by Viritica » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:32 pm
Persivis wrote:OMGeverynameistaken wrote:I should note that the British idea of 'free trade' largely consisted of forcibly opening pre-industrial economies to their industrial goods, then systematically destroying said economies by flooding them with said industrial goods. And with the local economies in a death grip, the British (and other colonial powers) could easily enforce demands to export what they wanted...namely generally unprofitable but industrially essential goods such as gum acacia and palm oil.
Incidentally, Britain didn't ban slavery. It banned the slave TRADE. Slavery was legal in some of Britain's African colonies until the 1930s.
Holy shit!
by Persivis » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:33 pm
Seleucas wrote:
No, I just have very little reason to say otherwise about it. I certainly don't see any reason to give it flag-waving adulation, as is the other extreme, nor do I take much pride in what it has accomplished (for instance, I consider the Declaration of Independence to be contrived propaganda.)
Seleucas wrote:Well, I definitely like free trade, even if I find some of the circumstances surrounding it deplorable.
Seleucas wrote:Their efforts against slavery went much more peacefully than the US did, and much sooner, was my point; I was not saying that they ended all slavery wherever it existed throughout the world, but they were influential in a number of places in hastening its end (for their own inscrutable reasons.)
Seleucas wrote:I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that my thinking was flawed; I think it was more the case of my needing to elaborate on what I was putting forth. In any case, I'd want to reiterate that I don't think the British Empire was good in and of itself, but I find it better than the US' comparative accomplishments (and as you said, such is a matter of one's perspective.)
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