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by United Marxist Nations » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:38 pm
The Kievan People wrote: United Marxist Nations: A prayer for every soul, a plan for every economy and a waifu for every man. Solid.
St. John Chrysostom wrote:A comprehended God is no God.
by Herskerstad » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:50 pm
by Czechanada » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:30 pm
Pope Joan wrote:If it causes a Sunni rift, it's a good thing.
We are overdue for some self-correcting from the Sunnis.
After the 30 Years War, Christians of all opinions were sick at heart over their barbarities, and things got better on the religious violence front. I hope that happens soon in Islam.
by Constantinopolis » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:58 pm
by Adab » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:52 pm
Napkiraly wrote:Considering that they say this is to prevent idolatry, one wonders that if they were to ever to take Medina, would they destroy the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi.
by Couasia » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:53 pm
by The Black Forrest » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:57 pm
Couasia wrote:And this is our problem why exactly? I don't understand really. Can someone please clarify?
by The Archregimancy » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:03 pm
Sjovenia wrote:Respawn wrote:I'm not trying to defend these scum but to be fair, the Nazis burned down historic synagogues, the Soviets did the same with many churches and St Paul's Cathedral was extremely lucky to have survived the Blitz.
Oh I was talking mainly just Heritage sites in general. Not just Religious sites. Like Vatican, Great Wall, Big Ben although I'm pretty sure that got blown to pieces?
Quintium wrote:Napkiraly wrote:Considering that they say this is to prevent idolatry, one wonders that if they were to ever to take Medina, would they destroy the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi.
The Al-Masjid al-Nabawi that you see today is the umpteenth Al-Masjid al-Nabawi. They've also demolished centuries-old houses once visited by Muhammed himself in Mecca to build hotels and shopping centres, because the people who talk about idolatry also happen to run Saudi Arabia.
When bin Saud took Medina in 1805, his followers, the Wahhabis, demolished nearly every tomb dome in Medina in order to prevent their veneration, and the [Ottoman] Green Dome [covering Mohammed's tomb, as housed in an earlier 13th-century structure] is said to have narrowly escaped the same fate. [The] Prophet Mohammed 's tomb was stripped of its gold and jewel ornaments, but the dome was preserved either because of an unsuccessful attempt to demolish its hardened structure, or because some time ago Ibn Abd al-Wahhab wrote that he did not wish to see the dome destroyed despite his aversion to people praying at the tomb. Similar events took place in 1925 when the Saudi ikhwans retook—and this time managed to keep—the city. In the Wahabi interpretation of Islam, the veneration of tombs and places thought to possess supernatural powers was an offense against tawhid.
by Darussalam » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:15 pm
Couasia wrote:And this is our problem why exactly? I don't understand really. Can someone please clarify?
by Baltenstein » Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:03 am
Czechanada wrote:Pope Joan wrote:If it causes a Sunni rift, it's a good thing.
We are overdue for some self-correcting from the Sunnis.
After the 30 Years War, Christians of all opinions were sick at heart over their barbarities, and things got better on the religious violence front. I hope that happens soon in Islam.
The Thirty Years War wasn't solely a religious war, mind you.
by Constantinopolis » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:02 am
Baltenstein wrote:As for ISIS: Why can't an international military task force consisting of Russia, Western countries and Muslim countries be assemled together to put them down? Now that would be a noble common goal.
by Sjovenia » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:41 am
Herskerstad wrote:
Cause it would be a huge embarrassment if Obama had to put ground troops back into Iraq, so that strikes the US of the list. Cameron and Hollande probably have already funded groups that fund ISIS, so that would be more pie on the face. Germany generally tends to be relatively low profile.
So that pretty much leaves about Italy, which cannot wait to jumpstart a new colonial rush.
by Sjovenia » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:42 am
The Archregimancy wrote:Sjovenia wrote:Oh I was talking mainly just Heritage sites in general. Not just Religious sites. Like Vatican, Great Wall, Big Ben although I'm pretty sure that got blown to pieces?
Assuming you're using the common colloquial terminology, and are applying the name of the Big Ben bell to the entire clocktower (now officially known as the Elizabeth Tower)....
No, Big Ben was not "blown to pieces" during the Second World War. It suffered some air raid damage (the Palace of Westminster was hit multiple times, and the House of Commons was destroyed in 1941 - perhaps the source of the confusion here), but otherwise the clock remained operational except for 12 hours in June 1941 when - in rather ironic circumstances - a maintenance man repairing air raid damage dropped a hammer into the mechanism. But then Big Ben isn't a religious site; it's the parliament building's clock tower.
More appropriate examples of WWII cultural vandalism with an impact on religious sites would be the Nazi bombings of York and Coventry, and the allied destruction of Monte Cassino and firebombing of Dresden. In all cases the bombing side could offer some form of justification for the attack (despite the "Baedeker Raid" reputation, York was an important railroad junction and centre of train manufacture [and York Minster itself wasn't hit]; Monte Cassino - like Krak des Chevaliers in modern Syria - was a strategically placed historical site that formed a key fortification point for one side in the conflict); in all cases the primary impact was the destruction of important cultural heritage.
And again, I would draw a key distinction between the Wahhabi-inspired destruction of sites (like the Tomb of Jonah or Khadijah's house) for purely ideological reasons, and the destruction/damage of sites via conflict (like the damage to Krak des Chevaliers or the Great Mosque of Aleppo).Quintium wrote:
The Al-Masjid al-Nabawi that you see today is the umpteenth Al-Masjid al-Nabawi. They've also demolished centuries-old houses once visited by Muhammed himself in Mecca to build hotels and shopping centres, because the people who talk about idolatry also happen to run Saudi Arabia.
A (likely unintentionally) slightly misleading question and answer. The Al-Masjid al-Nabawi has indeed evolved over time, in some cases featuring substantial rebuilding; but then the same is true of St. Peter's in Rome, St. Paul's in London, or York Minster. Even Hagia Sophia - which has been standing since the 6th century - is the third church on its site. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Classical or medieval Christian site where this wasn't true.
A better question from Napkiraly would have been "one wonders that if they were to ever to take Medina, would they destroy the tombs in the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi."
And they already did, and they already have; at least if by "they" we mean "Wahhabi-inspired Islam".When bin Saud took Medina in 1805, his followers, the Wahhabis, demolished nearly every tomb dome in Medina in order to prevent their veneration, and the [Ottoman] Green Dome [covering Mohammed's tomb, as housed in an earlier 13th-century structure] is said to have narrowly escaped the same fate. [The] Prophet Mohammed 's tomb was stripped of its gold and jewel ornaments, but the dome was preserved either because of an unsuccessful attempt to demolish its hardened structure, or because some time ago Ibn Abd al-Wahhab wrote that he did not wish to see the dome destroyed despite his aversion to people praying at the tomb. Similar events took place in 1925 when the Saudi ikhwans retook—and this time managed to keep—the city. In the Wahabi interpretation of Islam, the veneration of tombs and places thought to possess supernatural powers was an offense against tawhid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Masjid_al-Nabawi [some minor edits in square brackets added for clarity].
There are occasional noises from the Saudi religious authorities about demolishing the Green Dome (which also contains the tombs of the Rashidun Caliphs Abu Bakr and Umar); but for now it still stands, despite the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi increasingly resembling "Vegas in Hejaz". And given that the latter criticism comes from Muslim Emirati colleagues in Abu Dhabi and Dubai who know a thing or two about garish modern architecture (for obvious reasons I've never been to Medina), it carries some sting.
Similarly, all of the mausoleums at Medina's Al-Baqi' cemetery - where a host of significant figures in Islamic history, including many of Mohammed's family members, are buried - were torn down when the Saudis took the city in 1925. See here for further details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqi.
The same happened at the equally significant Mualla cemetery in Mecca: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannatul_Mualla
Note that in the cases of both cemeteries, the demolitions happened over the objections of the international Islamic community.
It's also worth noting that Medina's less well-known - but almost equally significant - Masjid al-Qiblatain has also recently been renovated by the Saudis. This was the site where Mohammed suddenly announced that he had a revelation that Muslims should pray while facing the Qibla rather than Jerusalem (which had hitherto been the emerging community's preferred practice). As a result, the Masjid al-Qiblatain uniquely contained two mihrabs [prayer niches], one facing Mecca, and one facing Jerusalem. Curiously, the recent Saudi renovation removed the 1400 year old historical mihrab facing Jerusalem. This actually renders the name of the mosque ("the Mosque of the Two Qiblas") rather redundant.
by Alcase » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:44 am
by Sjovenia » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:50 am
Alcase wrote:Damned brits...
by Cyrisnia » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:04 am
Couasia wrote:And this is our problem why exactly? I don't understand really. Can someone please clarify?
by The Klishi Islands » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:14 am
"Bullshit is everywhere. There is very little that you will encounter in life that has not been, in some ways, infused with bullshit." ~ Jon Stewart
Minds are like parachutes. They only function when open. ~ Unknown
by Couasia » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:16 am
Cyrisnia wrote:Basically imagine if I, and most other people here, went around smashing various historical things from American History for god, such as Mount Rushmore, Paul Revere's house, the White House, and the Washington Monument, etc.
And they're doing that with the generally more important WORLD History. They're destroying it, which is horrible.
by Sjovenia » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:52 am
The Klishi Islands wrote:This thread is basically Arch writing extremely substantive and informational posts, complete with sources and images and such, followed by everyone else writing one- or two-liners about how culture is good
Seriously though, this is disgusting. IMHO, if China and Russia want to be world powers so bad, they should join the Western Powers in condemning ISIS and launching a joint intervention.
by Benuty » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:45 pm
by The Black Forrest » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:43 pm
The Klishi Islands wrote:This thread is basically Arch writing extremely substantive and informational posts, complete with sources and images and such, followed by everyone else writing one- or two-liners about how culture is good
Seriously though, this is disgusting. IMHO, if China and Russia want to be world powers so bad, they should join the Western Powers in condemning ISIS and launching a joint intervention.
by Lydenburg » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:46 pm
by The Archregimancy » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:56 pm
Lydenburg wrote:I sincerely hope the Kerak de Chevaliers survives all the kak intact.
by Lydenburg » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:40 pm
by Anglo-California » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:43 pm
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