NationStates

Yes. The blanket ban on handguns was a bad piece of knee-jerk legislation that's done nothing to reduce violent crime (or even gun crime), or even killing sprees, which were rare before Dunblane and remain rare now, and I honestly think a large part of support for the ban is out of a desire to distinguish ourselves from America. Obviously people would have to have secure storage, be able to use their handgun properly, and be of sound mind to own one.

Absolutely.

No.

The UK has one of the lowest gun homicide rates in the world. It's .04/100,000 people. The USA, for comparison, is 3/100,000. I also think that the police should remain without guns. So you're 75x more likely to be murdered with a gun in the USA than the UK. Overall, the UK murder rate is 1.0/100,000 people, compared to the USA at 4.8/100,000 people.

So the gun law seems to be working. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Atlanticatia wrote:No.

The UK has one of the lowest gun homicide rates in the world. It's .04/100,000 people. The USA, for comparison, is 3/100,000. I also think that the police should remain without guns. So you're 75x more likely to be murdered with a gun in the USA than the UK. Overall, the UK murder rate is 1.0/100,000 people, compared to the USA at 4.8/100,000 people.

So the gun law seems to be working. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

There's something very strange in UK political debates these days where everything is debated in comparison to the US positions.

It's unsettling that we seem to be defining ourselves by our differences to the US.

Atlanticatia wrote:No.

The UK has one of the lowest gun homicide rates in the world. It's .04/100,000 people. The USA, for comparison, is 3/100,000. I also think that the police should remain without guns. So you're 75x more likely to be murdered with a gun in the USA than the UK. Overall, the UK murder rate is 1.0/100,000 people, compared to the USA at 4.8/100,000 people.

So the gun law seems to be working. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

England and Wales alone has a crime record of over 2,000 violent crimes per 100,000. Now add Scotland and Norther Ireland and it gets even higher so, yes. Loosen restrictions on handguns, with some exceptions of course.

Create a licensing system for the possession and public carry of handguns. Include mandatory training on the safe use and storage of handguns. And require people to pass a background check.

Frazers wrote:

Atlanticatia wrote:No.

The UK has one of the lowest gun homicide rates in the world. It's .04/100,000 people. The USA, for comparison, is 3/100,000. I also think that the police should remain without guns. So you're 75x more likely to be murdered with a gun in the USA than the UK. Overall, the UK murder rate is 1.0/100,000 people, compared to the USA at 4.8/100,000 people.

So the gun law seems to be working. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

There's something very strange in UK political debates these days where everything is debated in comparison to the US positions.

It's unsettling that we seem to be defining ourselves by our differences to the US.

I think of it as a form of jealousy.

No, there are to mayn dangerous groups in the UK, like for instance the wahabis have great followship in the UK. If the UK had loosen handgun resticrions in the past than the Woolwich massacre would be even worse and te London bombing also.

Frazers wrote:

Atlanticatia wrote:No.

The UK has one of the lowest gun homicide rates in the world. It's .04/100,000 people. The USA, for comparison, is 3/100,000. I also think that the police should remain without guns. So you're 75x more likely to be murdered with a gun in the USA than the UK. Overall, the UK murder rate is 1.0/100,000 people, compared to the USA at 4.8/100,000 people.

So the gun law seems to be working. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

There's something very strange in UK political debates these days where everything is debated in comparison to the US positions.

It's unsettling that we seem to be defining ourselves by our differences to the US.

I believe he was comparing it to the US due to the US being an obvious example of a nation that had legalized firearms.

Horizont wrote:

Frazers wrote:
There's something very strange in UK political debates these days where everything is debated in comparison to the US positions.

It's unsettling that we seem to be defining ourselves by our differences to the US.

I believe he was comparing it to the US due to the US being an obvious example of a nation that had legalized firearms.

Its the seemingly fixed belief that it's this or that that bothers me. There is a whole range of possible legislation and there are cultural differences to tale into account making such comparisons completely unhelpful.

Chernoslavia wrote:

Atlanticatia wrote:No.

The UK has one of the lowest gun homicide rates in the world. It's .04/100,000 people. The USA, for comparison, is 3/100,000. I also think that the police should remain without guns. So you're 75x more likely to be murdered with a gun in the USA than the UK. Overall, the UK murder rate is 1.0/100,000 people, compared to the USA at 4.8/100,000 people.

So the gun law seems to be working. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

England and Wales alone has a crime record of over 2,000 violent crimes per 100,000. Now add Scotland and Norther Ireland and it gets even higher so, yes. Loosen restrictions on handguns, with some exceptions of course.

Create a licensing system for the possession and public carry of handguns. Include mandatory training on the safe use and storage of handguns. And require people to pass a background check.

You can't compare apples to oranges. Firstly, the USA and the UK define a "violent crime" very differently.

Secondly, that number comes from a meme, which PolitiFact gave a rating of "False".

I believe he was comparing it to the US due to the US being an obvious example of a nation that had legalized firearms.

That's correct.

Basically, there is no evidence to suggest loosening handgun restrictions will decrease gun violence or decrease overall violent crime.

Atlanticatia wrote:Basically, there is no evidence to suggest loosening handgun restrictions will decrease gun violence or decrease overall violent crime.

Equally if there is nothing to suggest that it would increase those aspects of crime then there would be no reason to restrict it.

Atlanticatia wrote:
You can't compare apples to oranges.

That's exactly what you did.

Second scholmerian republic wrote:No, there are to mayn dangerous groups in the UK, like for instance the wahabis have great followship in the UK. If the UK had loosen handgun resticrions in the past than the Woolwich massacre would be even worse and te London bombing also.

But if they were able to get a hold of a bomb then they most likely already have more than just handguns like assault rifle, machine guns and the like.

UK gun laws didn't stop IRA bombings and it certainly didn't stop them from getting Webley revolvers, Glocks, Sten guns, Thompson SMGs, G3s, M16s, AR-180s, AKMs, AN-94s, DSHKMs, RPG-7s, pipe bombs, mortars, LPO-50 flamethrowers etc.

When it comes to gun bans, I don't think these people give a shit. Especially if armed self-defense in the UK in general is illegal, and it is.

Frazers wrote:

Atlanticatia wrote:
You can't compare apples to oranges.

That's exactly what you did.

No, I compared two countries with correct facts which can be measured similarly.

If you get your facts from a meme, which was deemed false by PolitiFact, especially when each country defines "violent crime" differently, that is apples to oranges. Cross-country comparison isn't comparing apples to oranges.

A gun homicide is the same everywhere - a violent crime is not.

I mean, atleast use correct facts.

Atlanticatia wrote:Cross-country comparison isn't comparing apples to oranges.

You make no comparison of culture, security leaks at borders, drivers for crime, etc when interpreting those statistics.

Apples and Oranges.

We need the pistols to protect from the Yobs

Frazers wrote:

Atlanticatia wrote:No.

The UK has one of the lowest gun homicide rates in the world. It's .04/100,000 people. The USA, for comparison, is 3/100,000. I also think that the police should remain without guns. So you're 75x more likely to be murdered with a gun in the USA than the UK. Overall, the UK murder rate is 1.0/100,000 people, compared to the USA at 4.8/100,000 people.

So the gun law seems to be working. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

There's something very strange in UK political debates these days where everything is debated in comparison to the US positions.

It's unsettling that we seem to be defining ourselves by our differences to the US.

it's not exactly strange that the USA comes up in a debate about guns. i don't know if you can tell, but the U.S. is one of the most gun lovingiest countries in the world, and is also yes one of the biggest countries and one we are kinda close to.

although our political parties and half of our voters do desperately want to become the america, which is quite disturbing.

Frazers wrote:

Atlanticatia wrote:Cross-country comparison isn't comparing apples to oranges.

You make no comparison of culture, security leaks at borders, drivers for crime, etc when interpreting those statistics.

Apples and Oranges.

So the fact that the gun homicide rate is 75x higher in the US than the UK is just incidental, and completely irrelevant? Even if you compare cultures, etc it is still quite hard to downplay that fact.

Atlanticatia wrote:

Frazers wrote:
You make no comparison of culture, security leaks at borders, drivers for crime, etc when interpreting those statistics.

Apples and Oranges.

So the fact that the gun homicide rate is 75x higher in the US than the UK is just incidental, and completely irrelevant? Even if you compare cultures, etc it is still quite hard to downplay that fact.

The statistics can't be interpreted in a vacuum. To try and do so is intellectually dishonest.

At no point did i hint that it was incidental. I suggested there were important factors driving it, one of which may be gun legislation, but many others may be more important.

Frazers wrote:

Atlanticatia wrote:
So the fact that the gun homicide rate is 75x higher in the US than the UK is just incidental, and completely irrelevant? Even if you compare cultures, etc it is still quite hard to downplay that fact.

The statistics can't be interpreted in a vacuum. To try and do so is intellectually dishonest.

Then the same could be said for comparing violent crime rates.



I mean, it is not just a coincidence that the United States ranks #1, and the UK ranks #24 among developed countries.

Loosened up - so that you can pay to fire a pistol/rifle at a range where you get given the gun then must return it at the end of the firing session could be quite profitable. It'd set up a new business in the UK.

However letting more guns out onto the streets - in any shape, way or form is a huge freaking no-no.

Atlanticatia wrote:

Frazers wrote:
The statistics can't be interpreted in a vacuum. To try and do so is intellectually dishonest.

Then the same could be said for comparing violent crime rates.



I mean, it is not just a coincidence that the United States ranks #1, and the UK ranks #24 among developed countries.

Again, i'll repeat it so it sticks :

I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S A COINCIDENCE.

I do however believe that the cause of the matter may not simply be gun legislation and therefore altered legislation in the UK need not produce a massive rise in gun crime.

Paixao wrote:Loosened up - so that you can pay to fire a pistol/rifle at a range where you get given the gun then must return it at the end of the firing session could be quite profitable. It'd set up a new business in the UK.

However letting more guns out onto the streets - in any shape, way or form is a huge freaking no-no.

You mean, a business that already exists? Gun ranges, with their own stock of firearms kept on site?
Revolutionary!

Frazers wrote:

Atlanticatia wrote:
Then the same could be said for comparing violent crime rates.



I mean, it is not just a coincidence that the United States ranks #1, and the UK ranks #24 among developed countries.

Again, i'll repeat it so it sticks :

I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S A COINCIDENCE.

I do however believe that the cause of the matter may not simply be gun legislation and therefore altered legislation in the UK need not produce a massive rise in gun crime.

Neither do all, or even most, of the countries low down on that list have a blanket ban on handguns.

Atlanticatia wrote:

Chernoslavia wrote:
England and Wales alone has a crime record of over 2,000 violent crimes per 100,000. Now add Scotland and Norther Ireland and it gets even higher so, yes. Loosen restrictions on handguns, with some exceptions of course.

Create a licensing system for the possession and public carry of handguns. Include mandatory training on the safe use and storage of handguns. And require people to pass a background check.

You can't compare apples to oranges. Firstly, the USA and the UK define a "violent crime" very differently.

Secondly, that number comes from a meme, which PolitiFact gave a rating of "False".

I believe he was comparing it to the US due to the US being an obvious example of a nation that had legalized firearms.

That's correct.

Basically, there is no evidence to suggest loosening handgun restrictions will decrease gun violence or decrease overall violent crime.

Apples to oranges? Fucking seriously? Your one to talk!

1. No they don't. The laws defining violent crimes are similar, the only difference is how they are worded.

2. And memes don't just come out of nowhere, the meme you are reffering to came from this: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... sb0812.pdf

3. Now let's compare the U.S. crime rate to that of only half the UK shall we?

UK

England and Wales Population: 56,000,000

Violent Crime Offenses: 762,515

Violent Crimes per 100,000: 1,361

This is 3.5 times the rate of the entire US.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... es/table-1

So, less guns doesn't mean less violence. The UK does have less gun murders, but there's a whole lot of other factors people should look at when comparing crime to other countries, and I don't think you people take any of this into consideration.

Credits for discovering these statistics goes to AmidsTheNoise.