NationStates

The Flood wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:
If people do not want it to be implanted at the last minute, freezing it is the best alternative to it dying because it prolongs the life of the embryo because - and this is important - every function of the human cell stops at a certain temperature without going into cellular death.

If you leave an embryo at room temperature it will invariably die because it doesn't have the environment to exist at room temperature.

If they don't want it implanted, then don't make it.

Soldati senza confini wrote:

The Flood wrote:If they don't want it implanted, then don't make it.

And how would you know that? Are you the couple?!
There's several reasons why "not yet" and freezing it is a better alternative than not freezing it.

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:

The Flood wrote:You're saying things and your not backing them up.

Explain yourself.

1. You said that we can't knowingly kill them. Every time IVF occurs we know full and well that most or all of them will not implant at all and there is no chance that they will carry to term. Every time, a woman will lose those embryos and they will die and we know full and goddamn well that is going to happen. So, we can't have IVF at all if you say we can't "kill them" because we are sending them to die every time.
2. You cannot implant it straight away. It will die if you do not freeze it. It takes time, meaning it's not just an "oh, take out and egg, throw some sperm on it, and pop it back in in five minutes. They take the eggs and the sperm. The parents go home. The IVF technician uses high powered microscopes and specialized tools to put a sperm and egg together. They do it over and over, and then figure out which ones have combined if any at all have. They then have to call the parents and make an appointment with them, often times weeks in the future but at the very least several days later. The technician HAS TO FREEZE THEM OR ELSE THEY WILL DIE.
3. A Z/E/F is not a newborn. A newborn thinks, feels, has a heartbeat, etc etc etc and can survive outside of the womb "independently*" and thus there is no reason to cryogenically freeze it - if you can't care for them you can find someone who can.
4. Cryogenic freezing for born humans or even fetuses is not currently possible. That's science-fiction at the moment so it's fucking irrelevant anyway

I'm going to get ice cream
*Independence is NOT about whether or not the child can survive on it's own, it's about whether the child can survive in the care of ANYONE, i.e. it is not attached to only one person.

Condunum wrote:

Constantinopolis wrote:I'm honestly trying to persuade you here, so if you feel that any of my questions are loaded, please explain why and I will retract them.

So, all characteristics play a part in one's standing in human society. Then, if we could manipulate the genetic characteristics of our children, could we give them a statistically higher chance of achieving higher standing in human society?

Sure, if you were so inclined.

The Flood wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:And how would you know that? Are you the couple?!
There's several reasons why "not yet" and freezing it is a better alternative than not freezing it.

Why did they spend 10,000 dollars or more to create a zygote and then decide, nah, lets implant it later? You had it made, so implant it now, or don't have it made until you are ready for it.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:You know, the pro-life camp is a piece of work.

If the woman seeks an abortion, she's a murderer. If she seeks IVF and has her zygotes frozen, she's a murderer. Make up your damn minds already. It's ridiculous.

Constantinopolis wrote:

Condunum wrote:Sure, if you were so inclined.

Ok, now assuming that (a) the rich have greater access to genetic enhancements than the poor, and (b) the rich want their children to also be rich - both of which are perfectly reasonable assumptions, I hope you agree - doesn't that mean that the children of the rich will be given genetic enhancements that will make them statistically even more likely to be rich and powerful than they already are?

Condunum wrote:

The Flood wrote:Why did they spend 10,000 dollars or more to create a zygote and then decide, nah, lets implant it later? You had it made, so implant it now, or don't have it made until you are ready for it.

Go and actually do some research on the topic before you try to lecture about it.

The aim of zygote cryopreservation is to give couples the best chances of conceiving whilst limiting multiple pregnancies and associated complications. The zygotes can, in fact, be thawed and subsequently transferred if conception fails occurs during the first cycle. In this case, there is no need to repeat the ovarian stimulation and follicular needle biopsy stages.

The Flood wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:And how would you know that? Are you the couple?!
There's several reasons why "not yet" and freezing it is a better alternative than not freezing it.

Why did they spend 10,000 dollars or more to create a zygote and then decide, nah, lets implant it later? You had it made, so implant it now, or don't have it made until you are ready for it.

The Flood wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:The problem is what if, what if they just want to have that embryo there sitting until the time they are ready to go through with it?
You are arguing for not prolonging their life. Why do we have refrigerators and freezers then? Why do we have cryogenesis? So we can have them sitting there looking pretty, or to preserve food, beverages (in the case of refrigerators and freezers) and people (in the case of cryogenesis)?

You people need to explain why the zygote either has to be frozen or die. It doesn't. It can be implanted when it is created along with any others, it doesn't need to be frozen or killed.

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:

The Flood wrote:You're saying things and your not backing them up.
Explain yourself.

1. You said that we can't knowingly kill them. Every time IVF occurs we know full and well that most or all of them will not implant at all and there is no chance that they will carry to term. Every time, a woman will lose those embryos and they will die and we know full and goddamn well that is going to happen. So, we can't have IVF at all if you say we can't "kill them" because we are sending them to die every time.
2. You cannot implant it straight away. It will die if you do not freeze it. It takes time, meaning it's not just an "oh, take out and egg, throw some sperm on it, and pop it back in in five minutes. They take the eggs and the sperm. The parents go home. The IVF technician uses high powered microscopes and specialized tools to put a sperm and egg together. They do it over and over, and then figure out which ones have combined if any at all have. They then have to call the parents and make an appointment with them, often times weeks in the future but at the very least several days later. The technician HAS TO FREEZE THEM OR ELSE THEY WILL DIE.
3. A Z/E/F is not a newborn. A newborn thinks, feels, has a heartbeat, etc etc etc and can survive outside of the womb "independently*" and thus there is no reason to cryogenically freeze it - if you can't care for them you can find someone who can.
4. Cryogenic freezing for born humans or even fetuses is not currently possible. That's science-fiction at the moment so it's fucking irrelevant anyway
I'm going to get ice cream
*Independence is NOT about whether or not the child can survive on it's own, it's about whether the child can survive in the care of ANYONE, i.e. it is not attached to only one person.

Soldati senza confini wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:You know, the pro-life camp is a piece of work.

If the woman seeks an abortion, she's a murderer. If she seeks IVF and has her zygotes frozen, she's a murderer. Make up your damn minds already. It's ridiculous.

Welcome to whining and bitching 101 and contrarianism 120; where nothing, absolutely nothing you do will please people.

It's why stopped giving a shit. If they want to bitch and bitch and bitch I rather let them do their act. I'll argue because it's fun but at the end of the day I can care less because they will always find a way to judge me or someone else. It's their modus operandi, can't avoid it.

The Flood wrote:

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:1. You said that we can't knowingly kill them. Every time IVF occurs we know full and well that most or all of them will not implant at all and there is no chance that they will carry to term. Every time, a woman will lose those embryos and they will die and we know full and goddamn well that is going to happen. So, we can't have IVF at all if you say we can't "kill them" because we are sending them to die every time.
2. You cannot implant it straight away. It will die if you do not freeze it. It takes time, meaning it's not just an "oh, take out and egg, throw some sperm on it, and pop it back in in five minutes. They take the eggs and the sperm. The parents go home. The IVF technician uses high powered microscopes and specialized tools to put a sperm and egg together. They do it over and over, and then figure out which ones have combined if any at all have. They then have to call the parents and make an appointment with them, often times weeks in the future but at the very least several days later. The technician HAS TO FREEZE THEM OR ELSE THEY WILL DIE.
3. A Z/E/F is not a newborn. A newborn thinks, feels, has a heartbeat, etc etc etc and can survive outside of the womb "independently*" and thus there is no reason to cryogenically freeze it - if you can't care for them you can find someone who can.
4. Cryogenic freezing for born humans or even fetuses is not currently possible. That's science-fiction at the moment so it's fucking irrelevant anyway
I'm going to get ice cream
*Independence is NOT about whether or not the child can survive on it's own, it's about whether the child can survive in the care of ANYONE, i.e. it is not attached to only one person.

Okay, fine. Freeze it for a day if you have to. But freezing it for years like a commodity does not respect human dignity and is not okay.

Also I don't like ice cream.

Soldati senza confini wrote:

The Flood wrote:Why did they spend 10,000 dollars or more to create a zygote and then decide, nah, lets implant it later? You had it made, so implant it now, or don't have it made until you are ready for it.

Like SAT pointed out (May Allah bless you, SAT) there's other things at work other than just something quick and easy.

The fact you don't know these is you arguing from ignorance. Not that I can say much from my end, I just know the basics of the procedure.

Condunum wrote:

Constantinopolis wrote:Ok, now assuming that (a) the rich have greater access to genetic enhancements than the poor, and (b) the rich want their children to also be rich - both of which are perfectly reasonable assumptions, I hope you agree - doesn't that mean that the children of the rich will be given genetic enhancements that will make them statistically even more likely to be rich and powerful than they already are?

Yes, and?

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Welcome to whining and bitching 101 and contrarianism 120; where nothing, absolutely nothing you do will please people.

It's why stopped giving a shit. If they want to bitch and bitch and bitch I rather let them do their act. I'll argue because it's fun but at the end of the day I can care less because they will always find a way to judge me or someone else. It's their modus operandi, can't avoid it.

It's fucking ridiculous.

The Flood wrote:

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:1. You said that we can't knowingly kill them. Every time IVF occurs we know full and well that most or all of them will not implant at all and there is no chance that they will carry to term. Every time, a woman will lose those embryos and they will die and we know full and goddamn well that is going to happen. So, we can't have IVF at all if you say we can't "kill them" because we are sending them to die every time.
2. You cannot implant it straight away. It will die if you do not freeze it. It takes time, meaning it's not just an "oh, take out and egg, throw some sperm on it, and pop it back in in five minutes. They take the eggs and the sperm. The parents go home. The IVF technician uses high powered microscopes and specialized tools to put a sperm and egg together. They do it over and over, and then figure out which ones have combined if any at all have. They then have to call the parents and make an appointment with them, often times weeks in the future but at the very least several days later. The technician HAS TO FREEZE THEM OR ELSE THEY WILL DIE.
3. A Z/E/F is not a newborn. A newborn thinks, feels, has a heartbeat, etc etc etc and can survive outside of the womb "independently*" and thus there is no reason to cryogenically freeze it - if you can't care for them you can find someone who can.
4. Cryogenic freezing for born humans or even fetuses is not currently possible. That's science-fiction at the moment so it's fucking irrelevant anyway
I'm going to get ice cream
*Independence is NOT about whether or not the child can survive on it's own, it's about whether the child can survive in the care of ANYONE, i.e. it is not attached to only one person.

Okay, fine. Freeze it for a day if you have to. But freezing it for years like a commodity does not respect human dignity and is not okay.

Also I don't like ice cream.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Welcome to whining and bitching 101 and contrarianism 120; where nothing, absolutely nothing you do will please people.

It's why stopped giving a shit. If they want to bitch and bitch and bitch I rather let them do their act. I'll argue because it's fun but at the end of the day I can care less because they will always find a way to judge me or someone else. It's their modus operandi, can't avoid it.

It's fucking ridiculous.

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
It's fucking ridiculous.

Welcome to the Pro-Life movement, where the logic is made up and the truth doesn't matter.

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:

The Flood wrote:Okay, fine. Freeze it for a day if you have to. But freezing it for years like a commodity does not respect human dignity and is not okay.
Also I don't like ice cream.

Ah so you prefer them to die than to be born excellent
Also I didn't fucking say you could touch my ice cream

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
It's fucking ridiculous.

Welcome to the Pro-Life movement, where the logic is made up and the truth doesn't matter.

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:It's fucking ridiculous.

Welcome to the Pro-Life movement, where the logic is made up and the truth doesn't matter.

The Flood wrote:

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:Ah so you prefer them to die than to be born excellent
Also I didn't fucking say you could touch my ice cream

No, none of them can be killed. As soon as any are implanted, all must be.

No bullshit indefinite freezing until someone wants it, it must be implanted as soon as possible and not treated like a commodity, because human beings are not commodities.

Constantinopolis wrote:

Condunum wrote:Yes, and?

Ok, so we agree that genetic enhancements will most likely lead to a situation where the statistical chances for the children of the rich and powerful to retain control of wealth and power are increased.

In other words, social mobility will be reduced, right?

The Flood wrote:

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:Welcome to the Pro-Life movement, where the logic is made up and the truth doesn't matter.

You just described the pro-choice movement to a tea.