NationStates

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:52 am**

Just posting to remind you folks that Lincoln didn't free the slaves because he was a good person. He freed them to cripple the South's agricultural based economy. No slaves = no cotton = no money for food/weapons/medical supplies.

Had the North been agriculturally based instead of industrial you would most likely still own a human being today.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:56 am**

Ucropi wrote:Just posting to remind you folks that Lincoln didn't free the slaves because he was a good person. He freed them to cripple the South's agricultural based economy. No slaves = no cotton = no money for food/weapons/medical supplies.

Lincoln could have spent his free time sacrificing virgins to his demonic masters while wearing the skin of captured Confederate prisoners and wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to what the Confederate flags symbolise.

Seriously, this isn't a football match. The Confederate flag doesn't win by you scoring enough points against the Union.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:00 am**

Nazi Flower Power wrote:A lot of people don't seem to realize just how severely they got their asses kicked. We get a lot of alternate histories and speculation about how things could have gone differently, so people often forget just how uneven the balance of power really was.

The war started at Fort Sumter on April 12th, and was essentially already over only a week later when Lincoln declared the blockade of Southern ports.

How the Confederacy expected to make the Union sue for peace by fighting a defensive war is utterly beyond me.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:00 am**

Ifreann wrote:
Ucropi wrote:Just posting to remind you folks that Lincoln didn't free the slaves because he was a good person. He freed them to cripple the South's agricultural based economy. No slaves = no cotton = no money for food/weapons/medical supplies.

Lincoln could have spent his free time sacrificing virgins to his demonic masters while wearing the skin of captured Confederate prisoners and wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to what the Confederate flags symbolise.

Seriously, this isn't a football match. The Confederate flag doesn't win by you scoring enough points against the Union.

You realize that America was founded by slave owners rebelling because they didn't want to give up their slaves right? Why does the Confederate flag stand for slavery and rebellion but the American flag doesn't?

inb4 "America isn't the topic""You're spamming/derailing"

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:00 am**

God why is this debate still going on? The Confederate flag represents rebellion and treason and the violation of the US Constitution. It embodies the ideals of rebels who attempted to secede from the Union in order to preserve the institution of slavery, a gross moral injustice. It is a wholly evil flag which should be banned and does not deserve the veneration that some people appear hell-bent on attaching it to.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:02 am**

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:God why is this debate still going on? The Confederate flag represents rebellion and treason and the violation of the US Constitution. It embodies the ideals of rebels who attempted to secede from the Union in order to preserve the institution of slavery, a gross moral injustice. It is a wholly evil flag which should be banned and does not deserve the veneration that some people appear hell-bent on attaching it to.

I'm interested in why though. Doesn't the American flag represent the exact same thing?

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:03 am**

Ucropi wrote:You realize that America was founded by slave owners rebelling because they didn't want to give up their slaves right? Why does the Confederate flag stand for slavery and rebellion but the American flag doesn't?

Because the Confederacy seceded primarily because of slavery. The American colonies seceded because of their belief that they weren't being adequately represented in the British Parliament together with the harsh taxes that England imposed.

They're two completely different things.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:06 am**

Ucropi wrote:I'm interested in why though. Doesn't the American flag represent the exact same thing?

Rebelling over political marginalisation and unfair taxation is much more morally justifiable than rebelling over an evil such as slavery. Two different things.

That the American Founding Fathers practised slavery is inconsequential. (In fact, John Quincy Adams himself despised slavery and wanted it banned)

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:06 am**

Ucropi wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Lincoln could have spent his free time sacrificing virgins to his demonic masters while wearing the skin of captured Confederate prisoners and wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to what the Confederate flags symbolise.

Seriously, this isn't a football match. The Confederate flag doesn't win by you scoring enough points against the Union.

You realize that America was founded by slave owners rebelling because they didn't want to give up their slaves right? Why does the Confederate flag stand for slavery and rebellion but the American flag doesn't?

inb4 "America isn't the topic""You're spamming/derailing"

Because that didn't happen.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:07 am**

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:
Ucropi wrote:You realize that America was founded by slave owners rebelling because they didn't want to give up their slaves right? Why does the Confederate flag stand for slavery and rebellion but the American flag doesn't?

Because the Confederacy seceded primarily because of slavery. The American colonies seceded because of their belief that they weren't being adequately represented in the British Parliament together with the harsh taxes that England imposed.

They're two completely different things.

This anti-slavery law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somersett%27s_Case came into effect 4 years before the American revolution happened. So how can you say they didn't secede because of slavery? Remember history is written by the victor, which means it's biased.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:07 am**

Sdaeriji wrote:
Ucropi wrote:You realize that America was founded by slave owners rebelling because they didn't want to give up their slaves right? Why does the Confederate flag stand for slavery and rebellion but the American flag doesn't?

inb4 "America isn't the topic""You're spamming/derailing"

Because that didn't happen.

Anti-Slavery law passed in Britain four years before the revolution started

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:09 am**

Ucropi wrote:This anti-slavery law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somersett%27s_Case came into effect 4 years before the American revolution happened. So how can you say they didn't secede because of slavery? Remember history is written by the victor, which means it's biased.

Because they didn't rebel against England over slavery in the first place? Dude, I'm gonna recommend you read more about the American Revolution first before you start trying to throw in historical revisionism.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:12 am**

Ucropi wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Lincoln could have spent his free time sacrificing virgins to his demonic masters while wearing the skin of captured Confederate prisoners and wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to what the Confederate flags symbolise.

Seriously, this isn't a football match. The Confederate flag doesn't win by you scoring enough points against the Union.

You realize that America was founded by slave owners rebelling because they didn't want to give up their slaves right? Why does the Confederate flag stand for slavery and rebellion but the American flag doesn't?

As I've already explained multiple times, because the USA has been around for over 200 years and has done many things, both good and bad, whereas the CSA started a war for slavery, lost that war, and hasn't been up to much since. 100% of the history of the Confederacy is associated closely with the slavery of black people, so it only follows that symbols of the Confederacy would evoke thoughts of racism and slavery. You may as well ask why people don't associate this with American football. You realise that there is an Army football team, don't you? Why do the logos and symbols of the New York Giants stand for football but the logos and symbols of the US Army don't?

inb4 "America isn't the topic""You're spamming/derailing"

Sorry to disappoint.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:13 am**

Ucropi wrote:
The Greater Aryan Race wrote:Because the Confederacy seceded primarily because of slavery. The American colonies seceded because of their belief that they weren't being adequately represented in the British Parliament together with the harsh taxes that England imposed.

They're two completely different things.

This anti-slavery law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somersett%27s_Case came into effect 4 years before the American revolution happened. So how can you say they didn't secede because of slavery? Remember history is written by the victor, which means it's biased.

Because post hoc ergo propter hoc is fallacious reasoning.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:17 am**

Ifreann wrote:
Ucropi wrote:You realize that America was founded by slave owners rebelling because they didn't want to give up their slaves right? Why does the Confederate flag stand for slavery and rebellion but the American flag doesn't?

As I've already explained multiple times, because the USA has been around for over 200 years and has done many things, both good and bad, whereas the CSA started a war for slavery, lost that war, and hasn't been up to much since. 100% of the history of the Confederacy is associated closely with the slavery of black people, so it only follows that symbols of the Confederacy would evoke thoughts of racism and slavery. You may as well ask why people don't associate this with American football. You realise that there is an Army football team, don't you? Why do the logos and symbols of the New York Giants stand for football but the logos and symbols of the US Army don't?

inb4 "America isn't the topic""You're spamming/derailing"

Sorry to disappoint.

Yeah we don't watch football in my country so I have no idea what a "New York Giant" is.

Now by your logic the SWASTIKA shouldn't be associated solely with the Nazis as it existed as a religious symbol for thousands of years as a symbol for everlasting life and peace, and maybe 3 decades as a racist symbol.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:18 am**

Ucropi wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:
Because that didn't happen.

Anti-Slavery law passed in Britain four years before the revolution started

Awesome. The colonials didn't rebel because of the passage of that law. Ergo, "You realize that America was founded by slave owners rebelling because they didn't want to give up their slaves right?" is a blatant lie.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:25 am**

Ucropi wrote:
Ifreann wrote:As I've already explained multiple times, because the USA has been around for over 200 years and has done many things, both good and bad, whereas the CSA started a war for slavery, lost that war, and hasn't been up to much since. 100% of the history of the Confederacy is associated closely with the slavery of black people, so it only follows that symbols of the Confederacy would evoke thoughts of racism and slavery. You may as well ask why people don't associate this with American football. You realise that there is an Army football team, don't you? Why do the logos and symbols of the New York Giants stand for football but the logos and symbols of the US Army don't?

Sorry to disappoint.

Yeah we don't watch football in my country so I have no idea what a "New York Giant" is.

Do you also play dumb in your country? Because there is no way you can't figure it out from context.

Now by your logic the SWASTIKA shouldn't be associated solely with the Nazis as it existed as a religious symbol for thousands of years as a symbol for everlasting life and peace, and maybe 3 decades as a racist symbol.

And it isn't. I think most people are aware that Hitler and his crew weren't the first people to use the swastika, and could tell from context whether it is being used in the Nazi sense or not.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:28 am**

Racism, Slavery, and utter Treachery.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:28 am**

Ucropi wrote:Yeah we don't watch football in my country so I have no idea what a "New York Giant" is.

Now by your logic the SWASTIKA shouldn't be associated solely with the Nazis as it existed as a religious symbol for thousands of years as a symbol for everlasting life and peace, and maybe 3 decades as a racist symbol.

Why don't you just admit your little attempt at historical revisionism failed and stop your attempts at obfuscation. But then why do you care? You're anti-American as your signature so proudly proclaims.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:20 am**

Ifreann wrote:
Ucropi wrote:Just posting to remind you folks that Lincoln didn't free the slaves because he was a good person. He freed them to cripple the South's agricultural based economy. No slaves = no cotton = no money for food/weapons/medical supplies.

Lincoln could have spent his free time sacrificing virgins to his demonic masters while wearing the skin of captured Confederate prisoners and wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to what the Confederate flags symbolise.

Seriously, this isn't a football match. The Confederate flag doesn't win by you scoring enough points against the Union.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:26 am**

Ucropi wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:
Because that didn't happen.

Anti-Slavery law passed in Britain four years before the revolution started

But that wasn't the reason USA rebelled, or at least not the main/only one. I'm sure the British parliament passed many laws during that time period, side it is their job.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:29 am**

Ucropi wrote:
Ifreann wrote:As I've already explained multiple times, because the USA has been around for over 200 years and has done many things, both good and bad, whereas the CSA started a war for slavery, lost that war, and hasn't been up to much since. 100% of the history of the Confederacy is associated closely with the slavery of black people, so it only follows that symbols of the Confederacy would evoke thoughts of racism and slavery. You may as well ask why people don't associate this with American football. You realise that there is an Army football team, don't you? Why do the logos and symbols of the New York Giants stand for football but the logos and symbols of the US Army don't?

Sorry to disappoint.

Yeah we don't watch football in my country so I have no idea what a "New York Giant" is.

Now by your logic the SWASTIKA shouldn't be associated solely with the Nazis as it existed as a religious symbol for thousands of years as a symbol for everlasting life and peace, and maybe 3 decades as a racist symbol.

Show people the Nazi flag and they will think Nazi.

Show people the CSA flag and most will think slavery and rebellion(well people who know what it is).

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:31 am**

Ucropi wrote:Just posting to remind you folks that Lincoln didn't free the slaves because he was a good person. He freed them to cripple the South's agricultural based economy. No slaves = no cotton = no money for food/weapons/medical supplies.

So...what you're saying is that after the war started and the South had seceded Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation to cripple the South because even though at this point the South had already separated from the Union and began fighting they would all go, "Shit, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation. We have to let the slaves go now. Damn Yankees!" Is that what you're peddling? In what way does this loop-de-loop logic exonerate the flag from its association?

Ucropi wrote:Had the North been agriculturally based instead of industrial you would most likely still own a human being today.

Adorable.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:32 am**

Ostroeuropa wrote:It's a symbol. Symbols have different meanings to different people.
Racism is a valid interpretation, but it's just childish to throw a fit and say other people aren't interpreting the art the same way you are and that yours is the right one. It's also incredibly stupid.

For the record, when I see the confederate flag, I see a racist symbol.

If you see it as any of the options, that's fine too. It might be a minority interpretation, but it's arrogant to say it's a wrong interpretation.
If you walk up to me and tell me the confederate flag is a symbol of southern heritage and pride, i'm going to accept thats how you see it. I'd even accept it's how a majority of southerners see it, and that they should be allowed to fly it.
I find this entire debate completely ridiculous.

Posted: **Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:39 am**

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:It's a symbol. Symbols have different meanings to different people.
Racism is a valid interpretation, but it's just childish to throw a fit and say other people aren't interpreting the art the same way you are and that yours is the right one. It's also incredibly stupid.

For the record, when I see the confederate flag, I see a racist symbol.

If you see it as any of the options, that's fine too. It might be a minority interpretation, but it's arrogant to say it's a wrong interpretation.
If you walk up to me and tell me the confederate flag is a symbol of southern heritage and pride, i'm going to accept thats how you see it. I'd even accept it's how a majority of southerners see it, and that they should be allowed to fly it.
I find this entire debate completely ridiculous.

This is where I find the debate to be completely ridiculous. People seem content with believing that a symbol can mean anything you want it to mean and others should respect what you believe a symbol means, unless you believe it's a symbol of something utterly repugnant in which case then your beliefs aren't valid if they contradict somebody with a "closer connection" with the flag. Because this is what this debate is all about; people wanting to fly the confederate flag without being accused of being racist or fans of slavery. Now that doesn't fly at all, if they want me to accept that it's a symbol of southern pride then I want them to accept that it's a symbol of racism and not get all defensive when I question why they're flying a racist symbol.

NationStates

The Confederate battle flag