The Confederate battle flag

[Ifreann]

Nobody's saying that it did.

Who in this thread has ever said that?

For a thing, Ifreann and Avenio has pretty much implied that (especially Ifreann who insists that the "flag of slavery", is the Confederate one). I just want to be fair and deliver justice to all the "players" that participated in this game, more or less.

I have insisted nothing of the sort. Indeed, I've made a point of referring to the Confederate flags, so I question just how you came to this conclusion.

[Alaizia]

I agree for one thing. If the whole country-members of the slave market were a royal dynasty, the Confederacy would certainly be its most notorious king. But because Hitler "played" more cruelly than Franco, doesn't change the fact that they were both oppressive dictators, for example.

Not a comparable example. Franco stayed a notorious dictator until his death. The North eventually abolished slavery (admittedly, the Civil War helped hurry that process along).

Indeed the North abolished slavery but it did, as you also said, during the Civil War. And of cource I am not referring only to the Northern States. Every modern west European nation has, in one or most cases, give in to slavery and has committed many crimes upon it, official or unofficial. Exploitation of third world countries was always a choice of the 19th and a early 20th century Europeans.

[Alaizia]

For a thing, Ifreann and Avenio has pretty much implied that (especially Ifreann who insists that the "flag of slavery", is the Confederate one). I just want to be fair and deliver justice to all the "players" that participated in this game, more or less.

Don't put words in my mouth. What I was implying was that, at the time the Civil War began in 1861, the Confederacy was the only Western state (other than Brazil, which was at that point on the road to abolition) to still practice slavery. What's moreso, it is the only Western state to both come into existence for the sole purpose of preserving slavery and the only Western state to fight a war in the name of preserving slavery. Its entire brief existence revolved around that institution.

I acknowledged both your implication and the Confederacy's role in slavery.

[Alaizia]

For a thing, Ifreann and Avenio has pretty much implied that (especially Ifreann who insists that the "flag of slavery", is the Confederate one). I just want to be fair and deliver justice to all the "players" that participated in this game, more or less.

I have insisted nothing of the sort. Indeed, I've made a point of referring to the Confederate flags, so I question just how you came to this conclusion.

By your reference and statement of cource.

[Avenio]

Don't put words in my mouth. What I was implying was that, at the time the Civil War began in 1861, the Confederacy was the only Western state (other than Brazil, which was at that point on the road to abolition) to still practice slavery. What's moreso, it is the only Western state to both come into existence for the sole purpose of preserving slavery and the only Western state to fight a war in the name of preserving slavery. Its entire brief existence revolved around that institution.

I acknowledged both your implication and the Confederacy's role in slavery.

Well no, you haven't. You're playing the 'Well, they did it too!' game, which stopped working when you were six years old. Yes, Britain and other countries were nasty colonialist powers and they used slaves. But when they, collectively, realized the wrong they were doing, they stopped.

The Confederacy, in the face of a world that had moved on from slavery and condemned it as an evil decades beforehand, decided to not only deny the evil they were committing but take up arms in defence of that evil against the people who were trying to end it. They ended up on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of ethics, and they paid the price for it.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Not a comparable example. Franco stayed a notorious dictator until his death. The North eventually abolished slavery (admittedly, the Civil War helped hurry that process along).

Indeed the North abolished slavery but it did, as you also said, during the Civil War. And of cource I am not referring only to the Northern States. Every modern west European nation has, in one or most cases, give in to slavery and has committed many crimes upon it, official or unofficial. Exploitation of third world countries was always a choice of the 19th and a early 20th century Europeans.

You're entirely missing the point, and I don't know whether it's intentional on your part or not. The fact is that while these other nations condoned slavery for a while, then abolished it, the CSA was specifically founded to protect and expand the institution, and is unique among the nations you mentioned in that manner.

[Alaizia]

I acknowledged both your implication and the Confederacy's role in slavery.

Well no, you haven't. You're playing the 'Well, they did it too!' game, which stopped working when you were six years old. Yes, Britain and other countries were nasty colonialist powers and they used slaves. But when they, collectively, realized the wrong they were doing, they stopped.

The Confederacy, in the face of a world that had moved on from slavery and condemned it as an evil decades beforehand, decided to not only deny the evil they were committing but take up arms in defence of that evil against the people who were trying to end it. They ended up on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of ethics, and they paid the price for it.

I am not playing any game. Not for matters concerning slavery. Why would you say that?
What you said now about the Confederacy is true. That's why I have already acknowledged its role here:

I agree for one thing. If the whole country-members of the slave market were a royal dynasty, the Confederacy would certainly be its most notorious king.

See? I make exceptions to no one.

[Ifreann]

I have insisted nothing of the sort. Indeed, I've made a point of referring to the Confederate flags, so I question just how you came to this conclusion.

By your reference and statement of cource.

Which one, exactly?

[Alaizia]

So which flag is racist and stands for slavery?

The Confederate flag.

For a thing this one. Pretty absolute if you ask me. But I don't blame you. I too think of the Confederacy and the South at first when someone mentions the word "slavery". But this is a thing that others have reportedly done in the past, in a lesser degree of cource.

I don't think we should be arguing about that. We both pretty much agree that while many nations (and their flags back then) have meddled with slavery, the Confederacy definately takes the cake.

To each one its own.

[Sdaeriji]

The Confederate flag.

For a thing this one. Pretty absolute if you ask me. But I don't blame you. I too think of the Confederacy and the South at first when someone mentions the word "slavery". But this is a thing that others have reportedly done in the past, in a lesser degree of cource.

I don't think we should be arguing about that. We both pretty match agree that while many nations (and their flags back then) have meddled with slavery, the Confederacy definately takes the cake.

To each one its own.

That post literally has the word flag in it.

[Alaizia]

For a thing this one. Pretty absolute if you ask me. But I don't blame you. I too think of the Confederacy and the South at first when someone mentions the word "slavery". But this is a thing that others have reportedly done in the past, in a lesser degree of cource.

I don't think we should be arguing about that. We both pretty match agree that while many nations (and their flags back then) have meddled with slavery, the Confederacy definately takes the cake.

To each one its own.

That post literally has the word flag in it.

What do you mean?

[Sdaeriji]

That post literally has the word flag in it.

What do you mean?

You seem to have lost the plot.

Yes, it's hypocritical to close our eyes and assume that only the Confederancy had a part in the slave market ever.

Who in this thread has ever said that?

For a thing, Ifreann and Avenio has pretty much implied that (especially Ifreann who insists that the "flag of slavery", is the Confederate one). I just want to be fair and deliver justice to all the "players" that participated in this game, more or less.

I have insisted nothing of the sort. Indeed, I've made a point of referring to the Confederate flags, so I question just how you came to this conclusion.

By your reference and statement of cource.

Which one, exactly?

The Confederate flag.

For a thing this one. Pretty absolute if you ask me. But I don't blame you. I too think of the Confederacy and the South at first when someone mentions the word "slavery". But this is a thing that others have reportedly done in the past, in a lesser degree of cource.

I don't think we should be arguing about that. We both pretty much agree that while many nations (and their flags back then) have meddled with slavery, the Confederacy definately takes the cake.

To each one its own.

[Alaizia]

What do you mean?

You seem to have lost the plot.

Yes, it's hypocritical to close our eyes and assume that only the Confederancy had a part in the slave market ever.

Who in this thread has ever said that?

For a thing, Ifreann and Avenio has pretty much implied that (especially Ifreann who insists that the "flag of slavery", is the Confederate one). I just want to be fair and deliver justice to all the "players" that participated in this game, more or less.

I have insisted nothing of the sort. Indeed, I've made a point of referring to the Confederate flags, so I question just how you came to this conclusion.

By your reference and statement of cource.

Which one, exactly?

For a thing this one. Pretty absolute if you ask me. But I don't blame you. I too think of the Confederacy and the South at first when someone mentions the word "slavery". But this is a thing that others have reportedly done in the past, in a lesser degree of cource.

I don't think we should be arguing about that. We both pretty much agree that while many nations (and their flags back then) have meddled with slavery, the Confederacy definately takes the cake.

To each one its own.

I have lost nothing. First off all, if you imply that, I know that there are many flags that a country can use. Ifreann pointed the Confederate flag meaning, I assume, the official country's flag. And since the government made the official decisions, this is (should be) the flag that everyone is mumbling about.

Are you sure you paid attention to the conversation?

[Ifreann]

The Confederate flag.

For a thing this one. Pretty absolute if you ask me.

Because you're taking it out of context. Look at the post I was quoting.

But I don't blame you. I too think of the Confederacy and the South at first when someone mentions the word "slavery". But this is a thing that others have reportedly done in the past, in a lesser degree of cource.

I don't think of the Confederacy and the South when someone mentions slavery. My world doesn't revolve around the United States.

[TheConfederate States of America]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confeder ... of_America

Read the part about the United States Census of 1860

[Nazi Flower Power]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America

What about it?

[Sdaeriji]

Are you sure you paid attention to the conversation?

Much better than you, it seems. No one said that the Confederacy was the only nation to play a role in the slave market, and Ifreann's statement that the Confederate flag is racist and stands for slavery does not imply that it is the only flag that does such.

[The Black Forrest]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America

Read the part about the United States Census of 1860

And?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America

Read the part about the United States Census of 1860

Oh, I forgot to include "Link Without Context" in the Bingo list. Fixed that. Thanks for the reminder!

[Dracoria]

The main reason the French wanted to support the Confederacy was because the Confeddies were more likely to support France's venture in Mexico than the United States would. See, the USA was like one of those older siblings who torments their younger sibling, but you'd better not do the same or they get pissed because James Monroe had said not to tolerate that kind of crap unless we were doing it. Anyway, with the ACW on, France (and Spain and Britain) moved in on Mexico to set up a puppet government and a new little empire. The USA was very not cool with this, and even the Confederates were kind of unhappy about it but didn't make any overt moves. Hell, there was the secret meeting at Hampton Roads between Lincoln and CSA VP Stephens and some other dignitaries, offering terms that would have been much more favorable to the south than what they'd eventually receive in exchqange for the first act of the reunited States being kicking the Europeans out of Mexico. I know what you're going to say, blah blah Lincoln dangled the thirteenth amendment in front of them and said they could avoid ratifying it blah blah Lincoln Racist, but he wanted peace and really wanted to move on to the problems south of the border. Predictably, Jefferson Davis was against it and preferred the crushing defeat he would get a few months later.

And at the same meeting the original 13th amendment was proposed.
It read:

"No Amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any state, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." --Joint Resolution of Congress, Adopted March 2, 1861

This amendment was a bribe to the south to rejoin the union.
But it was never agreed to.

Had the south agreed to this admendment slavery would still be in america today.

The meeting was in 1865, not 1861. The Thirteenth Amendment shown to Stephens and his colleagues was the same one that eventually passed. The 1861 resolution was withdrawn when the southerners seceded anyway.

Further, I frequently hear Confederacy enthusiasts claiming slavery - enshrined in their fricking Constitution - would have been phased out eventually. Why would this case be any different, especially in the case where more than half the reformed country was already against keeping human beings like cattle?

The flags of France England Spain and the US along with others.

Slavers tended to keep several flags aboard their ships by the early 19th century, due to the fact they had to avoid both British and American Navies patrolling off Africa looking for human trafficers. While the USA still allowed slavery up until the ACW, they at least banned importing more near the start. As more nations started to frown on human trafficing, it became important to be able to fly whatever flag was least likely to get you boarded.

And I am well aware of that.
Also we are talking about a flag that was never the confederate national flag.

It was a BATTLE flag never a symbol of the CSA government.
This was a flag for the army ONLY.

Ever looked at the Confederate Naval Jacks from 1863 onward? It was a flag for smugglers too.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America

Read the part about the United States Census of 1860

And?

2 out of every 5 human beings was living in chains seems to be the point?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America

Read the part about the United States Census of 1860

Since two different people can read the same thing and walk away with differing interpretations, how about you tell us why that's relevant.

[KASSRD]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America

Read the part about the United States Census of 1860

Since two different people can read the same thing and walk away with differing interpretations, how about you tell us why that's relevant.

I'm sure its either showing how the "north was racist too!" In some way, or how few people owned slaves.

[Aurora Novus]

Since two different people can read the same thing and walk away with differing interpretations, how about you tell us why that's relevant.

I'm sure its either showing how the "north was racist too!" In some way, or how few people owned slaves.

I just wonder why he spends so much time arguing over the history behind the flag. It doesn't seem to me that it demonstrates anything one way or the other.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Heh, I just noticed that I posted in this thread back in late May. Man, this is a long argument.

[KASSRD]

I'm sure its either showing how the "north was racist too!" In some way, or how few people owned slaves.

I just wonder why he spends so much time arguing over the history behind the flag. It doesn't seem to me that it demonstrates anything one way or the other.

I wonder why he wants to talk about a war 150 years ago that was by far our worst act ever committed, but I suppose he just doesn't want people to start thinking the south has changed for the better.