Israel / Gaza / Hamas Mega-Thread

[Viritica]

1. I'm sure in your eyes they are.

1. No, it wasn't.

2. That's the point. Hamas rejected it.

3. Which ones do you want. Be specific here.

1. "The truce held for the original 12 hours" - yes it was

2. we're talking about hamas violating ceasefires not not accepting ceasefires

3. what?

1. And it was extended.

2. Okay. I was making a point.

3. Which cease fires do you want me to post?

[Gauthier]

Yeah, China is a bastion of civil rights unlike North Korea!

Well, China at least doesn't send people to concentration camps to be experimented on, torture, etc.

Experiments and Tortures can't make shoes and other goods.

[Alyakia]

1. "The truce held for the original 12 hours" - yes it was

2. we're talking about hamas violating ceasefires not not accepting ceasefires

3. what?

1. And it was extended.

2. Okay. I was making a point.

3. Which cease fires do you want me to post?

1. but hamas refused the extension. this means it was over. you can't break a ceasefire you didn't agree to.

3. the ones hamas broke. (that were still in effect, and not unilaterally)

[Viritica]

Well, China at least doesn't send people to concentration camps to be experimented on, torture, etc.

Experiments and Tortures can't make shoes and other goods.

Uh... Are you even trying to be take seriously anymore?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Yeah, China is a bastion of civil rights unlike North Korea!

Well, China at least doesn't send people to concentration camps to be experimented on, torture, etc.

Na, China's all 'bout dat slave labor.

[Alyakia]

Well, China at least doesn't send people to concentration camps to be experimented on, torture, etc.

Experiments and Tortures can't make shoes and other goods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... na#Torture

[Gauthier]

Experiments and Tortures can't make shoes and other goods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... na#Torture

Whoops, I guess they *can*.

[Viritica]

1. And it was extended.

2. Okay. I was making a point.

3. Which cease fires do you want me to post?

1. but hamas refused the extension. this means it was over. you can't break a ceasefire you didn't agree to.

3. the ones hamas broke. (that were still in effect, and not unilaterally)

3. Well, there's this one. God, it's hard to find old stuff sometimes.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/817150-hamas-agrees-to-24-hour-truce-after-its-rockets-delayed-cease-fire/?photo=3

[Viritica]

Experiments and Tortures can't make shoes and other goods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... na#Torture

There is no equivalency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea

[Viritica]

Well, China at least doesn't send people to concentration camps to be experimented on, torture, etc.

Na, China's all 'bout dat slave labor.

TIL slaves are paid.

[Gauthier]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... na#Torture

There is no equivalency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea

It's adorable watching you excuse China's abuses by going "NORTH KOREA IS WORSE!!!!"

[Gauthier]

Na, China's all 'bout dat slave labor.

TIL slaves are paid.

China pays prisoners to manufacture goods? Damn, not even Norway does that!

[Washington Resistance Army]

Na, China's all 'bout dat slave labor.

TIL slaves are paid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_slave_scandal
http://world.time.com/2011/09/08/anothe ... ral-china/

To name a few.

[Alyakia]

1. but hamas refused the extension. this means it was over. you can't break a ceasefire you didn't agree to.

3. the ones hamas broke. (that were still in effect, and not unilaterally)

3. Well, there's this one. God, it's hard to find old stuff sometimes.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/817150-hamas-agrees-to-24-hour-truce-after-its-rockets-delayed-cease-fire/?photo=3

"Between the rival announcements Palestinian militants fired rockets deep into Israel, prompting it to resume an offensive aimed at destroying rocket launchers and cross-border attack tunnels used by Hamas."

lol

notice how they say hamas every other time in the article, but don't say hamas here. got any other sources?

[Viritica]

3. Well, there's this one. God, it's hard to find old stuff sometimes.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/817150-hamas-agrees-to-24-hour-truce-after-its-rockets-delayed-cease-fire/?photo=3

"Between the rival announcements Palestinian militants fired rockets deep into Israel, prompting it to resume an offensive aimed at destroying rocket launchers and cross-border attack tunnels used by Hamas."

lol

notice how they say hamas every other time in the article, but don't say hamas here. got any other sources?

This shit ain't exactly a mystery.

http://yalibnan.com/2014/07/17/israel-says-humanitarian-cease-fire-broken-gaza-militants/

[Viritica]

There is no equivalency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea

It's adorable watching you excuse China's abuses by going "NORTH KOREA IS WORSE!!!!"

I'm not. I'm just saying North Korea is much, much worse.

But nice strawman.

[Avenio]

It was stated right from the get-go that Israel's intentions in attacking Gaza were to annihilate Hamas once and for all. No ifs, ands or buts. The thing is that going out and saying so directly removes any incentive on Hamas' part to trust anything the Israelis say. They've basically been told to sit still and be destroyed, so of course they're not going to take being backed up against a wall sitting down.

Which is probably part of Israel's strategy. They want to get rid of Hamas, not re-forge another shaky peace. The game of chicken with the ceasefires is political theatre for the eyes of the West - Israel is a westernized democracy. It has to at least attempt to abide by international rules of conduct. Thus the periodic truces; offer up terms that you know will be rejected and that your enemy has no incentive to stick to, and you can shout from the rooftops that the other side is refusing to negotiate. Then once you've confirmed that you're seen as being on the moral high ground, you can bomb to your heart's content.

Of course the problem is that Hamas has evidently gotten very good at digging in, and the Israelis weren't entirely prepared for how hard they would be to dislodge. So now we have a war of attrition with one side refusing to let up because anything less than absolute victory would be seen as weak, and the other with their backs against the wall fighting to the last man, knowing that their enemies have no intention of letting them out alive if they had any say in it.

And, I'm genuinely curious, why is annihilating Hamas a bad thing? Hamas are terrorists, no ifs, ands, or buts. They train child soldiers, have destroyed Gaza, hide weapons in civilian structures, use human shields, and in general don't give a fuck about human life and aren't good for the people of Gaza.

Because the annihilation of Hamas is not possible through military action. Gaza is, quite literally, under siege, and its inhabitants are all operating under siege mentality. That's why support for Hamas is at an all time high - against an outside world that seems to bring nothing but bombs and death, they're the only ones fighting back. Doubling down on the attack just deepens the siege mentality, and Gaza would be a corpse-strewn ruin before they gave up the fight. When faced with annihilation, surrender isn't an option.

That's why the smart move for Israel right now would be to give Hamas everything it wants. No, really. Hear me out; Hamas' terms are quite simple - they want a seaport, they want an end to the blockade and they want an international airport. That's pretty much it. Those are all within Israel's permit to grant, but more importantly doing that would break the siege mentality.

A good way to approach it would be the following; Israel announces in a press conferences that it's willing to grant all of Hamas' demands, in exchange for an end to the rocket fire and an eventual path to disarmament. As a sign of good faith, the IDF would plan to end their attacks on the Strip in 24 hours' time and allow international aid through the border checkpoints, contingent on the rocket fire ending at that time as well. The Israeli government would give Hamas one week to decide whether or not they want to take the offer; if no word is received by that time or the demands are rejected, the IDF would resume its attacks. If the deal is accepted, the UN is brought in immediately to work out a long-term plan.

This changes Hamas from being the one thing standing between the Gazans and death into the one thing standing between the Gazans and real change for the better. If Hamas gets pressured by the moderate majority and the international community into accepting the deal and disarming, it's a win for Israel and a win for the Gazans. If Hamas rejects the deal and the IDF attacks begin again, Hamas gets the full blame and the newfound resentment of the Gazans, undermining their attempts to fight Israel without spilling a single drop more blood than would have occurred anyway without the peace offer.

[Washington Resistance Army]

It's adorable watching you excuse China's abuses by going "NORTH KOREA IS WORSE!!!!"

I'm not. I'm just saying North Korea is much, much worse.

But nice strawman.

So we shouldn't care about an "ally" selling our technology to an authoritarian human rights abuser cuz there's someone worse? What?

[Viritica]

And, I'm genuinely curious, why is annihilating Hamas a bad thing? Hamas are terrorists, no ifs, ands, or buts. They train child soldiers, have destroyed Gaza, hide weapons in civilian structures, use human shields, and in general don't give a fuck about human life and aren't good for the people of Gaza.

Because the annihilation of Hamas is not possible through military action. Gaza is, quite literally, under siege, and its inhabitants are all operating under siege mentality. That's why support for Hamas is at an all time high - against an outside world that seems to bring nothing but bombs and death, they're the only ones fighting back. Doubling down on the attack just deepens the siege mentality, and Gaza would be a corpse-strewn ruin before they gave up the fight. When faced with annihilation, surrender isn't an option.

That's why the smart move for Israel right now would be to give Hamas everything it wants. No, really. Hear me out; Hamas' terms are quite simple - they want a seaport, they want an end to the blockade and they want an international airport. That's pretty much it. Those are all within Israel's permit to grant, but more importantly doing that would break the siege mentality.

A good way to approach it would be the following; Israel announces in a press conferences that it's willing to grant all of Hamas' demands, in exchange for an end to the rocket fire and an eventual path to disarmament. As a sign of good faith, the IDF would plan to end their attacks on the Strip in 24 hours' time and allow international aid through the border checkpoints, contingent on the rocket fire ending at that time as well. The Israeli government would give Hamas one week to decide whether or not they want to take the offer; if no word is received by that time or the demands are rejected, the IDF would resume its attacks. If the deal is accepted, the UN is brought in immediately to work out a long-term plan.

This changes Hamas from being the one thing standing between the Gazans and death into the one thing standing between the Gazans and real change for the better. If Hamas gets pressured by the moderate majority and the international community into accepting the deal and disarming, it's a win for Israel and a win for the Gazans. If Hamas rejects the deal and the IDF attacks begin again, Hamas gets the full blame and the newfound resentment of the Gazans, undermining their attempts to fight Israel without spilling a single drop more blood than would have occurred anyway without the peace offer.

You see, I'd be inclined to agree with you but there's a very simple problem with this: Hamas's overall goal is the complete and utter annihilation of the Jewish state. They've made it clear multiple times that they want the destruction of Israel and the return of all "stolen" land to the Palestinian people. I can't help but worry that if Hamas becomes strong enough they'll strike Israel and they'll strike them hard. I can't help but feel that they'll use that seaport to ship in weapons and supplies.

[Viritica]

I'm not. I'm just saying North Korea is much, much worse.

But nice strawman.

So we shouldn't care about an "ally" selling our technology to an authoritarian human rights abuser cuz there's someone worse? What?

No. I didn't say that.

[Washington Resistance Army]

So we shouldn't care about an "ally" selling our technology to an authoritarian human rights abuser cuz there's someone worse? What?

No. I didn't say that.

Ah, guess I lost track somewhere.

[Viritica]

No. I didn't say that.

Ah, guess I lost track somewhere.

You know, you're rather good at being nice when you want to be.

[Nomadic sister of shawnas north africa]

Everyone blames hamas for rocket fire but the real reason this happened is nonting new for Zionist in Israel they Take settlements by building more new one and killing innocent Palestinian in there homes. killing children innocent Palestinian and no Arab country in the middle east fights for the Gaza Muslim. Israeli fires airstrikes on ambulances going to injured and the dead IDf " Say they are hamas terrorist. And killing from the IDF is haram to the thousands of community Palestinian people" Israel should be charged with war crimes ' the Jews always won't more land and religious right while Palestinians backs are against the wall. Hamas is not just some jihad groups but independent government for Palestine who else cares in the region? Damn sure not the IDF or Israel. Yet Jew Arabs and service in Israel army and military. if your commend to service Israel. yet Palestinian Arabs get the war of unjust. propaganda is fun and one sided to Muslims in the region and the west will always back Israel . People are fleeing there homes and now even more poor cases fires are a joke Israel . Wants genocidal of the Palestinian people but Allah knows best .

[Costa Fierro]

Yeah, China is a bastion of civil rights unlike North Korea!

Well, China at least doesn't send people to concentration camps to be experimented on, torture, etc.

Not anymore.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Ah, guess I lost track somewhere.

You know, you're rather good at being nice when you want to be.

Well, apart from smartass remarks every now and again I try to be. I feel it makes discussing things easier if you're polite instead of acting like "stfu kid u dum im right hurdur". You don't get any where with an attitude like that.