When central planning actually works

[The USOT]

Saudi Arabia is a goood example of central planning?

[Constantinopolis]

Saudi Arabia and Iran do not have planned economies.

As for Soviet-style central planning, well, it sure worked a lot better than the unplanned market economy that Russia has now! That's the thing, you see: Of course the Soviet system looks bad when compared to the living standards in the West, because the West had about a hundred years' worth of a head start on industrialization, and the entire rest of the world's economies - from the rigid central planning of North Korea to the absolute free markets of Somalia - have significantly lower living standards than the West.

Centrally-planned Russia (or Ukraine, or Kazakhstan, or whatever) should be compared with unplanned Russia (or Ukraine, or Kazakhstan, or whatever). And guess which version comes out on top?

Oh yeah. MUCH better then the unplanned market. That's what this graph shows, after all.

http://www.cfr.org/content/publications ... _Chart.png

Oh wait. Never mind. Their GDP has grown tenfold.

Pssst - that's a graph of nominal GDP per capita. Meaning that it measures the value of goods and services in Russia based on the prices at the time of measurement. Meaning that when you see that line going up on the graph, it could be due to real growth, or it could be just inflation.

To be sure that you're actually looking at growth (as opposed to inflation), you need a graph of real GDP per capita, ideally measured in some stable currency like the US dollar. And you know what that graph looks like?

It looks like this.

(note: this is for the entire Soviet Union / former Soviet Union, not merely Russia alone)

[Viritica]

>implying Saudi Arabia is not despotic

[The Scientific States]

By "works" I mean lacks incredibly despotic circumstances and the murder of millions while resulting in okay levels of prosperity. There are only two countries that are like this, namely Saudi Arabia and Iran. The most striking difference between them and all the other examples of central planning is the Islamic nature of their politics and culture versus the socialist/communist roots of the rest. Saudi Arabia is a unitary Islamic absolute monarchy. Iran is both a unitary presidential Islamic republic and a theocracy. My question is why is it that these two nations are able to have command economies without the ruin and despotism others have (or had)? Do you think that the Islamic roots have something to do with it?

For one, Saudi Arabia's and Iran's central planning hasn't worked great, and has resulted in a dictatorial, bureaucratic mess. The only reason Saudi Arabia is somewhat wealthy, is because of it's oil.

Secondly, you're implying that Iran and Saudi Arabia aren't despotic, which is completely untrue.

[Bombadil]

Saudi Arabia is a goood example of central planning?

Yep, by dint of fair and free communal hard work they're a shining light for the world of central planning command economy.

Bless them.

[Viritica]

Saudi Arabia is a goood example of central planning?

Yep, by dint of fair and free communal hard work they're a shining light for the world of central planning command economy.

Bless them.

If this is not satire... I give up on NSG...

[The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace]

Yep, by dint of fair and free communal hard work they're a shining light for the world of central planning command economy.

Bless them.

If this is not satire... I give up on NSG...

It's Bombadil ffs, unpack your bags.

[The Fascist American Empire]

Because a dead country that fell immediately after their communism went down the toilet doesn't count.

So because the country doesn't exist anymore we can't discuss it's former economic system? I guess that also means we can't discuss the corporatist economics implemented by the Italian Fascists, because Fascist Italy doesn't exist either.

If you want to discuss central planning, using the centrally planned economy of the USSR or one of the centrally planned economies of Eastern Europe like Poland makes more sense than Saudi Arabia or Iran, which are mixed economies.

Except, we're talking about something that's still working. Yes, Stalin's Five Year plans brought the Soviets to superpower status, only to fall almost as hard as Tsarist Russia after Gorbachev.

[Ballycolumbia]

Vietnam seems to be doing okay, although it isn't too wealthy, but that's to be expected among nations of that region.

As for GDP over average happiness, has anyone ever heard of Post-Colonialism thought?

[Sefard]

Saudi Arabia and Iran do not have planned economies.

As for Soviet-style central planning, well, it sure worked a lot better than the unplanned market economy that Russia has now! That's the thing, you see: Of course the Soviet system looks bad when compared to the living standards in the West, because the West had about a hundred years' worth of a head start on industrialization, and the entire rest of the world's economies - from the rigid central planning of North Korea to the absolute free markets of Somalia - have significantly lower living standards than the West.

Centrally-planned Russia (or Ukraine, or Kazakhstan, or whatever) should be compared with unplanned Russia (or Ukraine, or Kazakhstan, or whatever). And guess which version comes out on top?

Oh yeah. MUCH better then the unplanned market. That's what this graph shows, after all.

http://www.cfr.org/content/publications ... _Chart.png

Oh wait. Never mind. Their GDP has grown tenfold.

I noticed it is not adjusted for inflation. Since it is in US Dollars, we can use the Inflation Calculator from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

GDP Per Capita in 1990: $3,485 ($6,300 in 2014 Dollars)
GDP Per Capita in 2014: $14,037 ($7,764 in 1990 Dollars)

Source: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/russia/gdp-per-capita
Source: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

You see the gains aren't that much. Even the President of Russia, Mr. Putin himself states this and realizes this.

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has ordered the government to increase incomes of Russian citizens in 2012. The number of Russians living below the poverty line was halved in the past decade to 12.5%, he told the government presidium on Thursday.

"Translating this indicator into the international statistics language, we have approximately 26% of people living below the poverty line by international standards," he said.

Putin acknowledged that this indicator was comparable with such countries as Greece and Spain, where about 20% of people live below the poverty line. In the United States, the poor account for 18% of the population.

In Russia, the poverty indicator remained almost unchanged last year, Putin said. Salaries rose by more than 70%, but people's real incomes inched up by a mere 0.4-0.5%. The slow growth owes to insignificant increases in pensions and social payments, he concluded.

"This requires the most meticulous attention in 2012. The government should ensure a decent growth of people's incomes, including in the budget sector," the premier said.

Source: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/putin-26-of-russians-live-below-poverty-line-by-in-120410.html

The deal with Russia is this- In the Soviet Union, you had bureaucrats running the economy. In the Russian Federation, you have oligarchs running the economy. At least with the bureaucrats, everyone had food.

[Bombadil]

If this is not satire... I give up on NSG...

It's Bombadil ffs, unpack your bags.

While I'd hardly expect anyone to know me or my posting style, the absurdity of the statement and the slightly hyperbolic style of writing should be clear to anyone with basic reading comprehension - I mean, a general mark of trolling or utterly dumb comments is poor grammar and spelling.

Technically I should write all my posts in whimsical poem form..

[The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace]

It's Bombadil ffs, unpack your bags.

While I'd hardly expect anyone to know me or my posting style, the absurdity of the statement and the slightly hyperbolic style of writing should be clear to anyone with basic reading comprehension - I mean, a general mark of trolling or utterly dumb comments is poor grammar and spelling.

Technically I should write all my posts in whimsical poem form..

A tale of a poster so literate

Twas mistakenly called an idiot

He then tried a poem

None of which he could show em

And gave up and said "Fuck this Shit...iot"

[Viritica]

Oh yeah. MUCH better then the unplanned market. That's what this graph shows, after all.

http://www.cfr.org/content/publications ... _Chart.png

Oh wait. Never mind. Their GDP has grown tenfold.

I noticed it is not adjusted for inflation. Since it is in US Dollars, we can use the Inflation Calculator from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

GDP Per Capita in 1990: $3,485 ($6,300 in 2014 Dollars)
GDP Per Capita in 2014: $14,037 ($7,764 in 1990 Dollars)

Source: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/russia/gdp-per-capita
Source: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

You see the gains aren't that much. Even the President of Russia, Mr. Putin himself states this and realizes this.

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has ordered the government to increase incomes of Russian citizens in 2012. The number of Russians living below the poverty line was halved in the past decade to 12.5%, he told the government presidium on Thursday.

"Translating this indicator into the international statistics language, we have approximately 26% of people living below the poverty line by international standards," he said.

Putin acknowledged that this indicator was comparable with such countries as Greece and Spain, where about 20% of people live below the poverty line. In the United States, the poor account for 18% of the population.

In Russia, the poverty indicator remained almost unchanged last year, Putin said. Salaries rose by more than 70%, but people's real incomes inched up by a mere 0.4-0.5%. The slow growth owes to insignificant increases in pensions and social payments, he concluded.

"This requires the most meticulous attention in 2012. The government should ensure a decent growth of people's incomes, including in the budget sector," the premier said.

Source: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/putin-26-of-russians-live-below-poverty-line-by-in-120410.html

The deal with Russia is this- In the Soviet Union, you had bureaucrats running the economy. In the Russian Federation, you have oligarchs running the economy. At least with the bureaucrats, everyone had food.

This just in: Russia is corrupt.

News at 12.

[Bombadil]

While I'd hardly expect anyone to know me or my posting style, the absurdity of the statement and the slightly hyperbolic style of writing should be clear to anyone with basic reading comprehension - I mean, a general mark of trolling or utterly dumb comments is poor grammar and spelling.

Technically I should write all my posts in whimsical poem form..

A tale of a poster so literate

Twas mistakenly called an idiot

He then tried a poem

None of which he could show em

And gave up and said "Fuck this Shit...iot"

This was my best from back in the day..

*to the tune of Frosty the Snowman*

Baidu the Spider
Was a jolly happy thing
As he trawled all day through Nationstates
With his eight legs made of win

Baidu the Spider
Is a fairytale they say
He was made of code
and the Mods all know
How he came to life one day

There must have been some magic
In that old silk hat they found
For when they placed it on his head
He began to dance around

Baidu the Spider..

viewtopic.php?p=1735149#p1735149

[Geilinor]

Saudi Arabia isn't despotic?

[Angleter]

Oh yeah. MUCH better then the unplanned market. That's what this graph shows, after all.

http://www.cfr.org/content/publications ... _Chart.png

Oh wait. Never mind. Their GDP has grown tenfold.

I noticed it is not adjusted for inflation. Since it is in US Dollars, we can use the Inflation Calculator from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

GDP Per Capita in 1990: $3,485 ($6,300 in 2014 Dollars)
GDP Per Capita in 2014: $14,037 ($7,764 in 1990 Dollars)

Source: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/russia/gdp-per-capita
Source: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

You see the gains aren't that much.

They've more than doubled.

[Priory Academy USSR]

Central planning is the best system when it comes to achieving clear, concise goals: to give the obvious example, fighting a war. The USSR is a bit of a strange example. Central planning may well have worked if they didn't decide to try to match American military spending, and instead on further economic development. Of course, we'll never know the whole truth.

[Constantinopolis]

I noticed it is not adjusted for inflation. Since it is in US Dollars, we can use the Inflation Calculator from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

GDP Per Capita in 1990: $3,485 ($6,300 in 2014 Dollars)
GDP Per Capita in 2014: $14,037 ($7,764 in 1990 Dollars)

Source: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/russia/gdp-per-capita
Source: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

You see the gains aren't that much.

They've more than doubled.

The numbers given by Sefard are the raw dollar amounts, adjusted for nothing except (Russian) inflation. Go to the first link he provided and scroll all the way down to the last graph to see the fully adjusted numbers (including purchasing-power adjustments and so on):

Russian GDP per capita at purchasing power parity (PPP), measured in constant 2005 US dollars:

1990: $12,626
2011: $14,714

[Mkuki]

Iran and Saudi Arabia have command economies?

[MERIZoC]

A tale of a poster so literate

Twas mistakenly called an idiot

He then tried a poem

None of which he could show em

And gave up and said "Fuck this Shit...iot"

This was my best from back in the day..

*to the tune of Frosty the Snowman*

Baidu the Spider
Was a jolly happy thing
As he trawled all day through Nationstates
With his eight legs made of win

Baidu the Spider
Is a fairytale they say
He was made of code
and the Mods all know
How he came to life one day

There must have been some magic
In that old silk hat they found
For when they placed it on his head
He began to dance around

Baidu the Spider..

viewtopic.php?p=1735149#p1735149

Given the context behind that, that's hilarious.

[Cetacea]

Central Planning worked for the development of Japan (MITI) and South Korea, and now Thailand, Brunei and a few other SEA nations. Its done pretty well in coastal China too.